The "Ordain Women" Website

[bluebell]

No, the thought makes reason stare.

Of course we believe that we have a Heavenly Mother (and every young woman should know that already), but that is the complete extent of our doctrine regarding Her-that She exists. Given that, i don't personally see a reason to turn every reference to our Father in Heaven, or God, plural. I don't see what it will accomplish, other than questions we can't answer.

[mercyngrace]

Of course we believe that we have a Heavenly Mother (and every young woman should know that already), but that is the complete extent of our doctrine regarding Her-that She exists. Given that, i don't personally see a reason to turn every reference to our Father in Heaven, or God, plural. I don't see what it will accomplish, other than questions we can't answer.

I hear you, Bluebell. I just thought that bit of lyric made a humorous response.

As for myself, I'm not entirely sure what I think about this particular petition. On the one hand, I see the petitioners' point, especially after reading the article Stone Holm linked, of fleshing out the doctrine of Heavenly Mother for the sake of providing for our daughters a window into their own possible futures.

If our boys stood every week and recited "I am a son of a Heavenly Mother who loves me and I love her..." would that innately undermine their sense of self or deny them of a clear vision of their role as men in Her kingdom? If they prayed and performed ordinances in Her name, would that impact how they valued themselves before Her? Obviously, I don't have answers to those kinds of questions. Further, this isn't just a discussion about how it makes people feel, it's about what is true.

And the truth is that we do believe in a Heavenly Mother. We do believe that God is a name-title which refers to both male and female as we were created after God's image or the Gods' images. It's also true that the Proclamation on Family uses the phrase "Heavenly Parents" and directly speaks to the eternal nature of gender.

So, if gender is that significant a part of who we are, then perhaps, our daughters might benefit from small references to the additional role model of a Heavenly Mother.

Either way, institutional decisions regarding the YW theme are above my pay grade. And that's just fine with me.

[Stone holm]

I hear you, Bluebell. I just thought that bit of lyric made a humorous response.

As for myself, I'm not entirely sure what I think about this particular petition. On the one hand, I see the petitioners' point, especially after reading the article Stone Holm linked, of fleshing out the doctrine of Heavenly Mother for the sake of providing for our daughters a window into their own possible futures.

If our boys stood every week and recited "I am a son of a Heavenly Mother who loves me and I love her..." would that innately undermine their sense of self or deny them of a clear vision of their role as men in Her kingdom? If they prayed and performed ordinances in Her name, would that impact how they valued themselves before Her? Obviously, I don't have answers to those kinds of questions. Further, this isn't just a discussion about how it makes people feel, it's about what is true.

And the truth is that we do believe in a Heavenly Mother. We do believe that God is a name-title which refers to both male and female as we were created after God's image or the Gods' images. It's also true that the Proclamation on Family uses the phrase "Heavenly Parents" and directly speaks to the eternal nature of gender.

So, if gender is that significant a part of who we are, then perhaps, our daughters might benefit from small references to the additional role model of a Heavenly Mother.

Either way, institutional decisions regarding the YW theme are above my pay grade. And that's just fine with me.

Yeah, this is way above our pay grade. I have always felt that the reasons given for not talking much about Heavenly Mother were a little lame. Although I have read that in the early Church while the original Apostles were still roaming around and shortly thereafter, that there was much more talk of Her and that a name was even given -- but that got snuffed out completely by St. Augustine who was very thorough in destroying original manuscripts that did not concur with his view of the gospel. So I have been in some doubt about why there is so little doctrine. I asked my ultimate Earthly resource why we didn't have Heavenly Mother's name, and my wife told me probably because we don't know which one She is. Thought about that, nodded, and didn't bring the subject up again.

[rongo]

I asked my ultimate Earthly resource why we didn't have Heavenly Mother's name, and my wife told me probably because we don't know which one She is. Thought about that, nodded, and didn't bring the subject up again.

There is probably some truth to this. In the official public announcement of plural marriage (1852), Brigham Young had Orson Pratt give a long sermon before sending him on an East Coast speaking tour to expound (Pratt was the Church's point man on the dissemination and "spokesman-ing" on this). In this talk (it's right after the famous Adam-God one in JoD 1), Pratt gives an extensive and detailed doctrinal and scriptural explanation and justification, among which is D&C 76:24 ---- where spirit children are described as being "begotten sons and daughters unto God (as opposed to of God). Under this understanding, innumerable gods and goddesses provide spirit children for God, and once adopted by God, they are as much His children as if He and His wives had actually begotten them. If you take other items, such as the KFD and Sermon in the Grove and statements by prophets, it may be that the Firstborn sons of each of Elohim's actual wives become saviors, and exaltation for the rest of us consists of having all that the Father has, continuing to build our families, and participating in the creative and governing work of eternity. The simple fact is that we don't really know anything for sure by way of official revelation (even less than with the Snow couplet) as far as God's wife/wives. That's why I think next to nothing is said officially by the Church.

[Stone holm]

There is probably some truth to this. In the official public announcement of plural marriage (1852), Brigham Young had Orson Pratt give a long sermon before sending him on an East Coast speaking tour to expound (Pratt was the Church's point man on the dissemination and "spokesman-ing" on this). In this talk (it's right after the famous Adam-God one in JoD 1), Pratt gives an extensive and detailed doctrinal and scriptural explanation and justification, among which is D&C 76:24 ---- where spirit children are described as being "begotten sons and daughters unto God (as opposed to of God). Under this understanding, innumerable gods and goddesses provide spirit children for God, and once adopted by God, they are as much His children as if He and His wives had actually begotten them. If you take other items, such as the KFD and Sermon in the Grove and statements by prophets, it may be that the Firstborn sons of each of Elohim's actual wives become saviors, and exaltation for the rest of us consists of having all that the Father has, continuing to build our families, and participating in the creative and governing work of eternity. The simple fact is that we don't really know anything for sure by way of official revelation (even less than with the Snow couplet) as far as God's wife/wives. That's why I think next to nothing is said officially by the Church.

Like I said, once my wife has spoken profoundly on a subject I tend to move on. I don't necessarily go with us being anything other than Heavenly Father's spirit children, but there is nothing to say that we all have the same Heavenly Mother -- maybe we do, and maybe we don't -- however, it is pretty clear that we have Heavenly Parents, so I see nothing particularly controversial about saying that our daughters are daughters of our Heavenly Parents.

[rongo]

Well, for what it's worth, I'm teaching youth Sunday School under the new program, and I have repeatedly referred to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother while teaching about the Plan of Salvation, the Godhead, and the Atonement. I teach that we have both a Father and a Mother in heaven as established fact.

[Tacenda]

Well, for what it's worth, I'm teaching youth Sunday School under the new program, and I have repeatedly referred to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother while teaching about the Plan of Salvation, the Godhead, and the Atonement. I teach that we have both a Father and a Mother in heaven as established fact.

I keep thinking the church backed off of a Mother in heaven, because it's not a Christian teaching or some out there believe that God is Spirit. Therefore not physical and didn't have his children with a wife. I guess in their belief we're adopted children not literal children as LDS believe. So maybe it's kind of not talked about for that reason.

[MorningStar]

I keep thinking the church backed off of a Mother in heaven, because it's not a Christian teaching or some out there believe that God is Spirit. Therefore not physical and didn't have his children with a wife. I guess in their belief we're adopted children not literal children as LDS believe. So maybe it's kind of not talked about for that reason.

I think it's because we don't know anything about her. All we can say is we believe she exists.

[Teancum]

Mercyngrace,

Well, let's be clear here: It was you who characterized the situation as problematic because men "hold the priesthood and have power and rights in the Church that a woman just does not have access too." That being the case, then "envy" is an apt descriptor to what you are describing. You just don't like the word, but it is nonetheless appropriate.

What's this "we" Kemosabe? You are the one characterizing - incorrectly, in my view - the priesthood as something them men have and women do not. You are the one describing the priesthood as consisting of "power and rights."

I do not view the priesthood as a possession to be haggled over by self-appointed guardians of LDS women, or something which the practitioners of such presumption should loudly and publicly demand for themselves. They are doing so not through "persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned" per D&C 121:41, but rather through adversarial PR campaigns against the LDS Church, which campaigns are designed to make the Church look bad.

Again, I would like to better understand the concept of "equal treatment." What does that mean?

Thanks,

-Smac

No it is not envy. It is equality. If the role were reversed you may feel the same. And it is quite simple. Equality means just that. Both men and women having the same right to the same priesthood. Was in envy when black man hoped for or wanted to be part of the priesthood and all in entails?

[Brenda]

No it is not envy. It is equality. If the role were reversed you may feel the same. And it is quite simple. Equality means just that. Both men and women having the same right to the same priesthood. Was in envy when black man hoped for or wanted to be part of the priesthood and all in entails?

I hesitate to jump into an already-long thread because I'll probably say something that has been said over and over. But here goes. Blacks were denied the blessings of the temple. Women are denied nothing. We are promised everything.

[Tacenda]

DATE: SATURDAY, January 23, 1993

SECTION: EXTRA, PAGE: 3 EDITION: METRO

SOURCE: VERN ANDERSON ASSOCIATED PRESS

DATELINE: SALT LAKE CITY

Historian says Mormon leader OK'd Priesthood for women

Women aren't considered eligible for the priesthood by modern leaders of the Mormon Church, but a historian says the church's founder thought otherwise.

Michael Quinn says founder Joseph Smith taught that women receive the faith's priesthood as part of a sacred temple rite, but the doctrine is virtually unknown to the modern church and its male leadership.

"In effect, nearly all authoritative statements by [the church's] modern apostles have been inaccurate concerning the matter of women holding the priesthood," Quinn writes in a new book about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Quinn, a Mormon, said there is compelling documentary evidence that Smith gave women priesthood power in the temple "endowment" ritual in which women are anointed to become queens and priestesses.

"It's an explosive issue," Quinn said, particularly at a time when church leaders face growing pressure from Mormon feminists for a more active role in a faith dominated by its male priesthood.

Mormons define priesthood as the literal power of God and as the authority to act in God's name. They believe the "keys" to the priesthood came to Smith through heavenly intermediaries from Jesus Christ and have been passed on to the church's 12 successive presidents.

Quinn said there is no evidence a woman ever was ordained to a specific priesthood office such as elder, high priest, bishop or apostle. But in the early church there was a clear distinction between priesthood power - available to women in the temple endowment - and priesthood office.

"The confusion of priesthood office with priesthood has characterized many contemporary discussions of women and priesthood," Quinn wrote.

It wasn't until the 20th century that Mormon leaders completely backed away from the idea that women held the priesthood, Quinn said. In doing so, they relied on official histories that deleted evidence or changed meanings in "documents which were detailed and explicit in their original form."

Still, for nearly 100 years after Smith's death in 1844, Mormon women were authorized to perform the priesthood function of healing other women by anointing and blessing.

The issue is further complicated by the Mormon belief in continuing revelation from God to Mormon prophets. That principle was cited in 1978 when then-President Spencer W. Kimball lifted a ban against black males holding the priesthood.

Is the underlined true? Did Joseph Smith confer the priesthood on women (priestesses) as far as Priesthood power but not as in "office' such as Elder, HIgh Priest, Bishop etc.? Shouldn't this suffice in the eyes of the Ordain Women group. Maybe we need to be teaching more women that JS did confer to us the Priesthood but in a different capacity. Just so we are differentiated from the men. So RS President and her counselors, YW President and her counselors etc. But IMHO they should have more say in and authority in their positions since that was how it was in the RS anyway, in the beginning. I think that's all the women probably really want. Or maybe I'm just looking at it from my own perspective. The Mary Ellen Robertson's might just want more than that apparently.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Tacenda

[Brenda]

I have never noticed an hesitance to mention our Mother in Heaven. On one of the feminist podcasts, they said we are taught to not talk about her and that if you bring her up, you get hushed up.

What on earth? She's mentioned in a hymn!

I think we don't talk about her simply because we don't know anything about her, and so anything we say would be speculation. And when we need to know more about her, God will tell us. But we can certainly teach of her existence.

[Tacenda]

I have never noticed an hesitance to mention our Mother in Heaven. On one of the feminist podcasts, they said we are taught to not talk about her and that if you bring her up, you get hushed up.

What on earth? She's mentioned in a hymn!

I think we don't talk about her simply because we don't know anything about her, and so anything we say would be speculation. And when we need to know more about her, God will tell us. But we can certainly teach of her existence.

Probably so, even in the bible she's not mentioned. I wish she were.

[bluebell]

DATE: SATURDAY, January 23, 1993

SECTION: EXTRA, PAGE: 3 EDITION: METRO

SOURCE: VERN ANDERSON ASSOCIATED PRESS

DATELINE: SALT LAKE CITY

Historian says Mormon leader OK'd Priesthood for women

Women aren't considered eligible for the priesthood by modern leaders of the Mormon Church, but a historian says the church's founder thought otherwise.

Michael Quinn says founder Joseph Smith taught that women receive the faith's priesthood as part of a sacred temple rite, but the doctrine is virtually unknown to the modern church and its male leadership.

"In effect, nearly all authoritative statements by [the church's] modern apostles have been inaccurate concerning the matter of women holding the priesthood," Quinn writes in a new book about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Quinn, a Mormon, said there is compelling documentary evidence that Smith gave women priesthood power in the temple "endowment" ritual in which women are anointed to become queens and priestesses.

"It's an explosive issue," Quinn said, particularly at a time when church leaders face growing pressure from Mormon feminists for a more active role in a faith dominated by its male priesthood.

Mormons define priesthood as the literal power of God and as the authority to act in God's name. They believe the "keys" to the priesthood came to Smith through heavenly intermediaries from Jesus Christ and have been passed on to the church's 12 successive presidents.

Quinn said there is no evidence a woman ever was ordained to a specific priesthood office such as elder, high priest, bishop or apostle. But in the early church there was a clear distinction between priesthood power - available to women in the temple endowment - and priesthood office.

"The confusion of priesthood office with priesthood has characterized many contemporary discussions of women and priesthood," Quinn wrote.

It wasn't until the 20th century that Mormon leaders completely backed away from the idea that women held the priesthood, Quinn said. In doing so, they relied on official histories that deleted evidence or changed meanings in "documents which were detailed and explicit in their original form."

Still, for nearly 100 years after Smith's death in 1844, Mormon women were authorized to perform the priesthood function of healing other women by anointing and blessing.

The issue is further complicated by the Mormon belief in continuing revelation from God to Mormon prophets. That principle was cited in 1978 when then-President Spencer W. Kimball lifted a ban against black males holding the priesthood.

Is the underlined true? Did Joseph Smith confer the priesthood on women (priestesses) as far as Priesthood power but not as in "office' such as Elder, HIgh Priest, Bishop etc.? Shouldn't this suffice in the eyes of the Ordain Women group. Maybe we need to be teaching more women that JS did confer to us the Priesthood but in a different capacity. Just so we are differentiated from the men. So RS President and her counselors, YW President and her counselors etc. But IMHO they should have more say in and authority in their positions since that was how it was in the RS anyway, in the beginning. I think that's all the women probably really want. Or maybe I'm just looking at it from my own perspective. The Mary Ellen Robertson's might just want more than that apparently.

Hundreds of women received their endowment in Nauvoo, right?

If each of those women got the priesthood, how could that be covered up by later church leaders?

[Brenda]

Probably so, even in the bible she's not mentioned. I wish she were.

I agree. But I trust that there is a reason and that someday, we'll enjoy a wonderful reunion. I was raised mostly by my earthly dad. I am content, for now, to be spiritually raised by my Heavenly Father.

[Teancum]

I hesitate to jump into an already-long thread because I'll probably say something that has been said over and over. But here goes. Blacks were denied the blessings of the temple. Women are denied nothing. We are promised everything.

Can you baptize your son or be called to be a bishop? If you are a RS president do you have to consult with a male bishop regarding your stewardship?

[GingerRed]

I hesitate to jump into an already-long thread because I'll probably say something that has been said over and over. But here goes. Blacks were denied the blessings of the temple. Women are denied nothing. We are promised everything.

Exactly! And thats what those women don't seem to comprehend at all! All they see is men have something they don't and so they have to moan about it.

[GingerRed]

Can you baptize your son or be called to be a bishop? If you are a RS president do you have to consult with a male bishop regarding your stewardship?

And there's something wrong with that, because.....?

[Teancum]

And there's something wrong with that, because.....?

Look I am a man. I have the priesthood. You as a women ( think) may not want the blessing of admistering an ordinance to a child but others may wish for such an opportunity. Personally I am not all that invested in this. I would be fine if women got the priesthood. I think it would be wonderful in fact. I think it would make the Church better and strongers. I see no scripture or doctrinall justifications for denying it to women? I believe it is based out of historic and cultural patriarchy and I believe patriarchy fosters misogeny. I beleive misogeny is evil. I think priesthood for women would help get rid of the misogeny that has and still does exist in LDS Culture.

[bluebell]

Can you baptize your son or be called to be a bishop? If you are a RS president do you have to consult with a male bishop regarding your stewardship?

Doesn't everyone in a leadership position have to consult with the bishop though?

I'm a RS president and that last criticism seems like the equivalent of "I don't want a man telling me what to do".

[Brenda]

Can you baptize your son or be called to be a bishop? If you are a RS president do you have to consult with a male bishop regarding your stewardship?

But it isn't about me. My son can be baptized and receive all the ordinances. That's what matters. A thought just occurred to me. The Godhead is so perfectly united that it doesn't matter which one speaks or acts ..... it's as if they all did. One represents them all. I feel, in a very small way, similarly united with my husband, in that watching him baptize or ordain our son, is as good as me doing it. I don't need to be physically in the water, or have my hands on his head ..... I am there in spirit. It would be no better, nor give me more joy, to be physically doing it myself. I truly feel that way. And I am humbly grateful that we have the blessings of baptism and the true authority of the priesthood to make it possible.

And being a bishop is a privilege only in that it's one form of service and sacrifice. There are many ways to serve. And bishops consult with their stake president. We all consult with someone higher ..... sometimes that someone is the Lord. (Do I dare say, on the risk that you've heard this too many times, that no one, their right mind, would want to be a bishop. I might say that about a RS president too.) I'm just grateful that someone is willing to take it on.

[GingerRed]

But it isn't about me. My son can be baptized and receive all the ordinances. That's what matters. A thought just occurred to me. The Godhead is so perfectly united that it doesn't matter which one speaks or acts ..... it's as if they all did. One represents them all. I feel, in a very small way, similarly united with my husband, in that watching him baptize or ordain our son, is as good as me doing it. I don't need to be physically in the water, or have my hands on his head ..... I am there in spirit. It would be no better, nor give me more joy, to be physically doing it myself. I truly feel that way. And I am humbly grateful that we have the blessings of baptism and the true authority of the priesthood to make it possible.

And being a bishop is a privilege only in that it's one form of service and sacrifice. There are many ways to serve. And bishops consult with their stake president. We all consult with someone higher ..... sometimes that someone is the Lord. (Do I dare say, on the risk that you've heard this too many times, that no one, their right mind, would want to be a bishop. I might say that about a RS president too.) I'm just grateful that someone is willing to take it on.

Well said, Brenda!!

Red

[Senator]

I would love to have my wife be able to assist me in adminstering to our children.

[Calm]

Just saw this pop up on facebook.

It's a page sponsored by a group called MoFAB, Mormon feminist Action Board, and is calling for a change in the wording of the YW theme. The suggestion is to go from "We are daughters of our Father in Heaven..." to "We are daughters of our Parents in Heaven...".

Of course, I immediately thought of this thread.

Thoughts?

It is already been taught so I don't see it as a big deal.

Each Sister Is a Beloved Daughter of Heavenly Parents and Has a Divine Destiny

http://www.lds.org/e...g=spa&clang=eng

https://www.lds.org/...father?lang=eng

Latter-day prophets and apostles testify of our divine natures. The proclamation to the world on the family says, “Each [of us] is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny”

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

In 1974, the First Presidency stated: “Honoring your parents by living a good life and by showing them that you love and appreciate them are gifts that last forever. To your earthly mother and father and to your Heavenly Parents, you are their most valuable treasure. Their love and concern for you never ends”

http://www.lds.org/l...-1-13-5,00.html

God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. "All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body"

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.

https://www.lds.org/...ly-proclamation

I want you to be proud you are a woman. I want you to feel the reality of what that means. You are literally a spirit daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and an eternal destiny. That surpassing truth should be fixed deep in your soul and be fundamental to every decision you make as you grow into mature womanhood.

http://www.lds.org/new-era/2012/09/how-to-be-a-young-woman-of-god?lang=eng&query=%22heavenly+parents%22

There are 291 'hits' when using the lds.org search function for "heavenly parents", probably many are duplicates and some are false positives (they are actually "Heavenly Father", not "Heavenly Parents but the search terms probably include "heavenly parents"), but it seems enough to me to confirm that there is nothing groundbreaking in switching to "heavenly parents" in the YW theme.

Edited March 23, 2013 by calmoriah

[why me]

I would love to have my wife be able to assist me in adminstering to our children.

Why can't she? There are many ways to administer to children and being present is one way.