The Atonement

[Damien the Leper]

I'm curious as to why Evangelical apologists are saying that the LDS get the Atonement wrong. Why is this?

[The Nehor]

I'm curious as to why Evangelical apologists are saying that the LDS get the Atonement wrong. Why is this?

Everyone everywhere is convinced that everyone else has gotten the atonement wrong. I am no exception as I would point out that all non-LDS have it wrong and 99% of LDS have got it wrong.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm looking more for specifics. I've never gotten the impression that LDS got it wrong.

[Rivers]

I think we have the atonement wrong, in their view, because of our emphasis on works and not relying on grace alone. They think that having to do works cheapens the atonement.

After Christ died, according to the Bible, the veil of the temple was torn and evangelicals believe this to be the end of all temple worship. We still believe in temple ordinances as necessary to salvation

Evangelicals interpret the book of Hebrews as saying that Christ was the final high priest and we no longer need priesthood. LDS believe that priesthood is essential for performing saving ordinances. This also cheapens the atonement in the minds of evangelicals.

Evangelicals all probably disagree with the LDS view that murder is not covered by the atonement.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Rivers

[Damien the Leper]

Ugh...this is a disaster.

[Rivers]

Ugh...this is a disaster.

Did I say something wrong?

[Calm]

Ugh...this is a disaster.

You should probably ask Evangelicals what they think is wrong in LDS understanding rather than LDS as it is always better to go for firsthand when available. LDS can then be talking about what we have right. There are undoubtedly lots of websites with the EV POV info out there.

PS: CARM has a specific page dealing with this topic, due to the nature of the website won't be posting a link.

Edited January 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

Did I say something wrong?

No. You're fine. I'm having trouble figuring out what exactly the Atonement is.

[Questing Beast]

Atonement: "God" making sure that everything works out joyfully.

[halconero]

I have to finish some linguistics homework and then do the last of my reading for my medical anthropology seminar and then I'll get back to you with some explanations that I have received from a) the Scriptures b) Latter-day Saint sources c) Evangelical sources (my cousin and uncle are ministers) and d) most importantly, the Holy Spirit.

[Mudcat]

I'm curious as to why Evangelical apologists are saying that the LDS get the Atonement wrong. Why is this?

Hi Valentinus,

My thought on the matter is that LDS put an undue focus on Jesus in Gethsemane rather than the Jesus on the cross. This is anedotal observation, though I am sure it's linked to LDS teachings along the line.

Another, and very significant point, would be that as I understand it, LDS seem to link Christ's atonement with giving a bodily ressurection of all people. Evangelicals don't think that all aren't ressurected, we just don't believe that this was what the atonement was about. As for the ressurection of the dead, it seems quite apparent that all will rise and they will do so not of their own power, but Gods. 1st Thessalonians 4:16 speaks to those who die in Christ. Revelation 20:12-13 seems to speak of those who die without Him.

I ran across this from LDS.org while doing some Googling on the issue.

A man walking along a road fell into a pit so deep he could not climb out. No matter what he did, he could not get out by himself. The man called for help and rejoiced when a kind passerby heard him and lowered a ladder down into the pit. This allowed him to climb out of the pit and regain his freedom.

We are like the man in the pit. Sinning is like falling into the pit, and we can’t get out by ourselves. Just as the kind passerby heard the man’s cry for help, Heavenly Father sent his Only Begotten Son to provide the means of escape. Jesus Christ’s atonement could be compared to lowering a ladder into the pit; it gives us the means to climb out. Just as the man in the pit had to climb up the ladder, we must repent of our sins and obey the gospel principles and ordinances to climb out of our pit and make the Atonement work in our lives. Thus, after all we can do, the Atonement makes it possible for us to become worthy to return to Heavenly Father’s presence.

Source:http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2eb28c8fd6c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

I think this analogy makes a very good illustration of LDS teachings.

Bold and underline mine. Specifically underline. This notion that we sort of start out good but then somehow loose freedom into a situation in which we can't remedy is foreign to most Evangelicals. I don't think it works out that way, we all seem to be born fairly selfish and the older we get the more we express it. Even kids steel cookies and know they are stealing when they do it.

My view is that we are born sinners and there comes a point that we actually realize we are sinning.

I don't think God tosses us a ladder to climb out of the pit. Rather, I think He pulls us from the pit entirely and gives us a ladder to climb, and each and every step we make forward are for Him, by Him , through Him and anything done is to His Glory specifically.

Bold, itallics, and underline mine. The whole notion that Christ's atonement makes us worthy only after "all we can do" is something that Evangelicals, like yours truly, would disagree with strongly.

Regards,

Mudcat

[Tacenda]

Hi Valentinus,

My thought on the matter is that LDS put an undue focus on Jesus in Gethsemane rather than the Jesus on the cross. This is anedotal observation, though I am sure it's linked to LDS teachings along the line.

Another, and very significant point, would be that as I understand it, LDS seem to link Christ's atonement with giving a bodily ressurection of all people. Evangelicals don't think that all aren't ressurected, we just don't believe that this was what the atonement was about. As for the ressurection of the dead, it seems quite apparent that all will rise and they will do so not of their own power, but Gods. 1st Thessalonians 4:16 speaks to those who die in Christ. Revelation 20:12-13 seems to speak of those who die without Him.

I ran across this from LDS.org while doing some Googling on the issue.

Source:http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2eb28c8fd6c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

I think this analogy makes a very good illustration of LDS teachings.

Bold and underline mine. Specifically underline. This notion that we sort of start out good but then somehow loose freedom into a situation in which we can't remedy is foreign to most Evangelicals. I don't think it works out that way, we all seem to be born fairly selfish and the older we get the more we express it. Even kids steel cookies and know they are stealing when they do it.

My view is that we are born sinners and there comes a point that we actually realize we are sinning.

I don't think God tosses us a ladder to climb out of the pit. Rather, I think He pulls us from the pit entirely and gives us a ladder to climb, and each and every step we make forward are for Him, by Him , through Him and anything done is to His Glory specifically.

Bold, itallics, and underline mine. The whole notion that Christ's atonement makes us worthy only after "all we can do" is something that Evangelicals, like yours truly, would disagree with strongly.

Regards,

Mudcat

I think a lot of LDS can agree with this atleast I hope we do.

[theplains]

I think a lot of LDS can agree with this atleast I hope we do.

In the Old Testament, on the Day of Atonement, only the high priest went into the Holiest of Holies. In the New

Testament, Jesus is the only High Priest over the house of God (Hebrews 9 and 10, especially 10:21). People

don't need an earthly high priest (singular) because they have a Heavenly One. That is why the tearing of the

temple veil has great spiritual significance.

Jim

[volgadon]

In the Old Testament, on the Day of Atonement, only the high priest went into the Holiest of Holies. In the New

Testament, Jesus is the only High Priest over the house of God (Hebrews 9 and 10, especially 10:21). People

don't need an earthly high priest (singular) because they have a Heavenly One. That is why the tearing of the

temple veil has great spiritual significance.

Jim

Which is a perfectly valid reading from an evangelical POV. It is hardly the only or even the preferable reading of both the high priest and the veil.

[Five Solas]

Not sure who these "Evangelical apologists" are you have in mind. But in Christianity, the Eternal, Uncreated God enters human history as a man (the Incarnation). And God dies, Scripture reveals, "for our sin" (1 Cor 15:3, and elsewhere). The man on the cross was the creator God.

In LDS theology, the picture is altogether different. Here Jesus is not God (the way Christians assert) but an "organized intelligence," a "literal son" in a pre-existence--a created being, the same substance and essence as you, me, Satan, and the angels. Creature as opposed to the Christian Creator. A creature on a cross. So it's hard to imagine (for me anyway) that the LDS view of atonement or propitiation would bear anything but superficial resemblance to the Christian understanding.

--Erik

[Calm]

"a created being....as you, me, Lucifer"

Since LDS do not believe any of those were created, but are uncreated as God is, your argument fails....but is a good example of how Evangelicals misunderstand and think we are wrong.

[Five Solas]

"a created being....as you, me, Lucifer"

Since LDS do not believe any of those were created, but are uncreated as God is, your argument fails....but is a good example of how Evangelicals misunderstand and think we are wrong.

If I substituted "organized" for "created" - would I still be wrong? And would it change my point at all?

[Sky]

I'm not too familiar with the Evangelical viewpoint about the Atonement, but I know that it is a very crucial, important tenant in Mormonism. There are pages and pages of LDS websites addressing the topic of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, such as this one.

In short, my understanding of the LDS interpretation of the At-one-ment can be summed up from this scripture in D&C 19: 16-19.

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

[volgadon]

If I substituted "organized" for "created" - would I still be wrong? And would it change my point at all?

If created is such an important distinction as you would have, yes.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I'm having trouble figuring out what exactly the Atonement is.

You might have already read these, but it never hurts to mention Hugh Nibley's The Meaning of the Atonement and Margaret Barker's Atonement: The Rite of Healing.

Edit: Also a nice little discussion started by the inimitable Kevin Barney over at By Common Consent. Haven't read them all yet so I can't vouch for quality, but there's also some stuff at New Cool Thang as well, and Eternal Rounds.

Edited January 22, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[altersteve]

Not sure who these "Evangelical apologists" are you have in mind. But in Christianity, the Eternal, Uncreated God enters human history as a man (the Incarnation). And God dies, Scripture reveals, "for our sin" (1 Cor 15:3, and elsewhere). The man on the cross was the creator God.

In LDS theology, the picture is altogether different. Here Jesus is not God (the way Christians assert) but an "organized intelligence," a "literal son" in a pre-existence--a created being, the same substance and essence as you, me, Satan, and the angels. Creature as opposed to the Christian Creator. A creature on a cross. So it's hard to imagine (for me anyway) that the LDS view of atonement or propitiation would bear anything but superficial resemblance to the Christian understanding.

--Erik

Newsflash: we most certainly DO believe Jesus Christ is our God and Father, and the Creator of the universe. He has always and will always be such.

[Damien the Leper]

Thanks to everyone who has participated. Also, thank you for the reading resources.

Calmoriah, I won't be going to CARM. I mean there are Christian Apologists and then there is CARM.

[Five Solas]

If created is such an important distinction as you would have, yes.

The distinction between the Uncreated, Eternal God and His creation should be important to everyone who takes his/her Bible seriously, volgadon. One might suggest the very definition of idolatry is the worship of created things (Romans 1:25). So if--as some LDS postulate--Jesus is an "organized intelligence" (a creation, albeit not a creation ex nihilo)--then the implication here is profound.

Would you disagree with me?

--Erik

[mfbukowski]

Everyone everywhere is convinced that everyone else has gotten the atonement wrong. I am no exception as I would point out that all non-LDS have it wrong and 99% of LDS have got it wrong.

You are sadly mistaken.

In fact I am the only one who has gotten it right.

[The Nehor]

You are sadly mistaken.

In fact I am the only one who has gotten it right.

I challenge you to duel to establish you point. You want to choose location or weapons?