Banishing The Cross: The Emergence Of A Mormon Taboo

[Damien the Leper]

I will re-emphasize what others have suggested, Mike.

KINDLE!!

[rodheadlee]

I never knew the cross was taboo for Mormons, until I came across this place.

[Tacenda]

I never knew the cross was taboo for Mormons, until I came across this place.

Oh, to live in the mission field would be nice!

[Calm]

Or to not particularly care about what others say...that makes life much less stressful and much, much more fun.

[azisbest]

Congrats I will pin this for now.

As a newbie could you please explain "pin this"? Thanks in advance.

Nemesis

[volgadon]

Pinning means it is always at the top of the page.

[williamsmith]

I'm curious why the promotion of this book? It seems to suffer from a flawed thesis, and I've also read much of Mike Reeds works and they certainly are not "pro-mormon", and are in fact anti-mormon; yes, more subtle then most, but still anti-mormon.

The cross was not made "taboo" due to some mormon historical cultural events, it was de-emphasized because it simply was not our theology. Yes, early mormons often used it more simply because most mormons were in fact "converts" to the Church, and it takes time for some things that aren't Christ's doctrines and ways to fall the wayside.

The "cross" in Mormonism is Christ's Atonement, Mission, Sacrifice, etc., not the actual cross he died on. As well we focus on the Atonement as a whole and the Resurrection, instead of the cross itself. That is the simple fact of why it's not emphasized in Mormonism. Yes, there was a little resistance because it was the symbol of other Christians, but that wasn't the driver of the deemphasis at all.

[williamsmith]

In fact, the response to Mike Reeds claims at Sunstone, and the conclusion of the article seems in the correct vain.

We are simply "ambivalent" and always have been. Obviously there have been some opinions, but we focus on the Living Christ, not on the Christ on the Cross.

"Contempt." "Aversion." "Opposition." "Taboo." Reed struggled throughout his presentation to find the right word to describe how Mormons feel about using the cross as a symbol. In a recent telephone interview, Robert A. Rees, an LDS scholar (and the "response" to Reed's presentation at the Sunstone Symposium), used the word "ambivalence" to describe Mormons' feelings toward using the cross as a symbol.

Not hostility, but a shifting ambivalence.

The attitude of Mormons toward the cross has changed over the years. Members of the LDS Church did not accept the 19th-century Protestant prejudice against the cross. Over time, some embraced the cross as a symbol and others avoided its use. Some even used it as a way to denigrate the Catholic Church.

Today members of the LDS Church concentrate on the body and blood of Christ more than the nails and wood. The cross may not be used as a special outward symbol any more than the crown of thorns, the whip and the spear, but thoughts of the cross and what it represents still cause Latter-day Saints to stand all amazed.

[Calm]

I would say that it is included here as Mike is part of the community and conversations revolving around his research have been taking place for quite some time. Seeing the end result of such discussions at least from Mike's side is likely to interest many.

[teddyaware]

Today members of the LDS Church concentrate on the body and blood of Christ more than the nails and wood. The cross may not be used as a special outward symbol any more than the crown of thorns, the whip and the spear, but thoughts of the cross and what it represents still cause Latter-day Saints to stand all amazed.

It never ceases to amaze me when I hear intelligent Latter Day Saints so sincerely "assert" that the symbols of the Christ's crucifixion are of no especial importance to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It makes me wonder if they are living in some sort of a parallel alternate universe, or if they are just inexplicitly blind to the patently obvious.

The Latter Day Saints place more importance on the symbolism of Christ's crucifixion than does any other Christian religion. Do these fellow members not remember how important the wounds Christ received as a consequence of his crucifixion on Calvary's hill were to both the meridian Holy Land saints and to the Nephites gathered at the temple in Bountiful? Do these brothers and sisters not realize that when the resurrected Lord first appeared to the Nephites he spent hours having thousands of believers come forward to both see and feel the sacred wounds he received while he hung on the cross? Read the account of this most sacred event as recorded in 3 Nephi 11 here:

13 And it came to pass that the ^aLord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may ^athrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may ^bfeel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the ^cGod of Israel, and the God of the whole ^dearth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and ^adid feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.

16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:

17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did ^aworship him.

Jesus proved to these ancient saints that he was the Christ and God of the whole earth by allowing each of them the sacred privilage of seeing and feeling the most holy tokens of the infinite and eternal sacrifice he made for all of us while he hung upon the cross of Calvary (yes, I give equal reverence to his suffering in Gethsemane as well). And it seems quite likely that when Jesus appears in his resurrected body to us, his modern day saints, he will also ask us to come forth and feel for ourselves and bear witness of the sacred wounds (tokens) of his great sacrifice. When this happens, will some of us mumble to ourselves and ask, "gee whiz, I wonder why we are spending so much time focusing on tokens of death, when we know in the etrnal scheme of things that the resurrection is much more important?!?"

And has it dawned on the many that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is so important to our Heavenly Father that our Saviour retains these most sacred wounds of his crucifixion (as a perfected resurrected being, no less!), that his children might have their salvation in the Celestial Kingdom affirmed?

And again, do many Latter Day Saints not realize that unless there is a most sacred application of the symbolism of Christ's crucifixion in our worship there could be no passage through the portals of heaven, no exaltation for individuals in the Celestial Kingdom, no eternal marriage, no eternal families, no eternal kings and queens, and no salvation for the dead?

Let's snap out of it and realize the Latter Day Saints place more symbolic and salvative importance on the physical symbols of Christ's crucifixion than do any other Christian people -- it's not even a close call. Whether our places of worship have ever displayed any actual crosses or not is not really relevent, for to the Latter Day Saints the symbolism of the crucifixion of Christ is absolutely essential to our salvation and exaltation. It is not an understatement to assert that the Latter Day Saints reverence and hold dear the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of the Saviour more than do any other people. Wake up and smell the herbal tea!

Edited October 29, 2012 by teddyaware

[Mike Reed]

In fact, the response to Mike Reeds claims at Sunstone, and the conclusion of the article seems in the correct vain.

We are simply "ambivalent" and always have been. Obviously there have been some opinions, but we focus on the Living Christ, not on the Christ on the Cross.

"Contempt." "Aversion." "Opposition." "Taboo." Reed struggled throughout his presentation to find the right word to describe how Mormons feel about using the cross as a symbol. In a recent telephone interview, Robert A. Rees, an LDS scholar (and the "response" to Reed's presentation at the Sunstone Symposium), used the word "ambivalence" to describe Mormons' feelings toward using the cross as a symbol.

Not hostility, but a shifting ambivalence.

The attitude of Mormons toward the cross has changed over the years. Members of the LDS Church did not accept the 19th-century Protestant prejudice against the cross. Over time, some embraced the cross as a symbol and others avoided its use. Some even used it as a way to denigrate the Catholic Church.

Today members of the LDS Church concentrate on the body and blood of Christ more than the nails and wood. The cross may not be used as a special outward symbol any more than the crown of thorns, the whip and the spear, but thoughts of the cross and what it represents still cause Latter-day Saints to stand all amazed.

For what it is worth, Bob Rees has written a blurb for the back of my book. Do you know what it says? Read the description posted on Amazon. That was written by Bob.

[Mike Reed]

For what it is worth, Bob Rees has written a blurb for the back of my book. Do you know what it says? Read the description posted on Amazon. That was written by Bob.

here it is:

Michael Reed’s invaluable study shines new light on Mormons’ complex and ambiguous relationship with the cross. Reed’s research, the most exhaustive ever undertaken on this subject, should help other Christians understand the historic, cultural and religious context out of which Latter-day Saint attitudes toward the cross emerged—and it should help Latter-day Saints find greater spiritual meaning.--Robert Rees

[Mike Reed]

Ps. Bob also invited me to speak about my book in his class on Mormonism at GTU Berkeley. If I were anti-Mormon, that would be rather odd, don't ya think?

Edited October 29, 2012 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

It never ceases to amaze me when I hear intelligent Latter Day Saints so sincerely "assert" that the symbols of the Christ's crucifixion are of no especial importance to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It makes me wonder if they are living in some sort of a parallel alternate universe, or if they are just inexplicitly blind to the patently obvious.

The Latter Day Saints place more importance on the symbolism of Christ's crucifixion than does any other Christian religion. Do these fellow members not remember how important the wounds Christ received as a consequence of his crucifixion on Calvary's hill were to both the meridian Holy Land saints and to the Nephites gathered at the temple in Bountiful? Do these brothers and sisters not realize that when the resurrected Lord first appeared to the Nephites he spent hours having thousands of believers come forward to both see and feel the sacred wounds he received while he hung on the cross? Read the account of this most sacred event as recorded in 3 Nephi 11 here:

13 And it came to pass that the ^aLord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may ^athrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may ^bfeel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the ^cGod of Israel, and the God of the whole ^dearth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and ^adid feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.

16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:

17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did ^aworship him.

Jesus proved to these ancient saints that he was the Christ and God of the whole earth by allowing each of them the sacred privilage of seeing and feeling the most holy tokens of the infinite and eternal sacrifice he made for all of us while he hung upon the cross of Calvary (yes, I give equal reverence to his suffering in Gethsemane as well). And it seems quite likely that when Jesus appears in his resurrected body to us, his modern day saints, he will also ask us to come forth and feel for ourselves and bear witness of the sacred wounds (tokens) of his great sacrifice. When this happens, will some of us mumble to ourselves and ask, "gee whiz, I wonder why we are spending so much time focusing on tokens of death, when we know in the etrnal scheme of things that the resurrection is much more important?!?"

And has it dawned on the many that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is so important to our Heavenly Father that our Saviour retains these most sacred wounds of his crucifixion (as a perfected resurrected being, no less!), that his children might have their salvation in the Celestial Kingdom affirmed?

And again, do many Latter Day Saints not realize that unless there is a most sacred application of the symbolism of Christ's crucifixion in our worship there could be no passage through the portals of heaven, no exaltation for individuals in the Celestial Kingdom, no eternal marriage, no eternal families, no eternal kings and queens, and no salvation for the dead?

Let's snap out of it and realize the Latter Day Saints place more symbolic and salvative importance on the physical symbols of Christ's crucifixion than do any other Christian people -- it's not even a close call. Whether our places of worship have ever displayed any actual crosses or not is not really relevent, for to the Latter Day Saints the symbolism of the crucifixion of Christ is absolutely essential to our salvation and exaltation. It is not an understatement to assert that the Latter Day Saints reverence and hold dear the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of the Saviour more than do any other people. Wake up and smell the herbal tea!

my book isn't about.the theological significance of the crucifixion, neither the cross as a literary symbol. Nor is it about artistic depictions of the cross. The book is concerned with material/visual symbolism. Edited October 30, 2012 by Mike Reed

[MiserereNobis]

The Latter Day Saints place more importance on the symbolism of Christ's crucifixion than does any other Christian religion.

Let's snap out of it and realize the Latter Day Saints place more symbolic and salvative importance on the physical symbols of Christ's crucifixion than do any other Christian people -- it's not even a close call.

This is an INCREDIBLY bold claim that any Catholic or Orthodox will take issue with. Not even a close call? The entire focus of Catholicism centers around the Cross and the Crucifixion. I can understand you trying to argue that the LDS church does have a focus on the Crucifixion, despite many members saying otherwise, but it boggles the mind to say that your church has the greatest focus on the Crucifixion without even a close second. I don't even know where to begin to show how the Crucifixion is the heart of Catholicism because it is so blatant and so, well, in-your-face. From walking into a Catholic church to reading the Catechism and the teachings of the Saints to following the liturgy and spiritual devotions -- we preach Christ crucified.

Perhaps you could elaborate how the LDS church places more focus on the Crucifixion than Catholicism?

Whether our places of worship have ever displayed any actual crosses or not is not really relevent

I strongly disagree. If you are saying that the Crucifixion is more important to the LDS than to any other Christian, it is a glaring problem that there is not a single representation of the Crucifixion in an LDS church, nor (as I understand but may be wrong) in an LDS temple. Yes, I do know about the temple token that references the Crucifixion, but I say that hardly counts as putting you in the fore-front of Christian denominations that focus on the Crucifixion.

for to the Latter Day Saints the symbolism of the crucifixion of Christ is absolutely essential to our salvation and exaltation.

As it is to the Catholic (obviously minus the belief in exaltation), yet we also add all the visual symbols to make it clear that the Crucifixion is the pivotal event.

It is not an understatement to assert that the Latter Day Saints reverence and hold dear the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of the Saviour more than do any other people. Wake up and smell the herbal tea!

Again, please explain this to me, because I am boggled.

[Calm]

here it is:

Michael Reed’s invaluable study shines new light on Mormons’ complex and ambiguous relationship with the cross. Reed’s research, the most exhaustive ever undertaken on this subject, should help other Christians understand the historic, cultural and religious context out of which Latter-day Saint attitudes toward the cross emerged—and it should help Latter-day Saints find greater spiritual meaning.--Robert Rees

It is always nice to see an obsession actually produce something useful.

[Calm]

.

Perhaps you could elaborate how the LDS church places more focus on the Crucifixion than Catholicism?

I too would like to see his reasoning.

Btw, MN, I have seen pictures of the crucifixion in lds buildings. This is probably the most common one: http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product3_715839595_10557_21099_-1__196130

However, they are not as common as the Garden or Resurrection themed art! Including Christ showing his wounds.

Edited October 30, 2012 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

This is an INCREDIBLY bold claim that any Catholic or Orthodox will take issue with. Not even a close call? The entire focus of Catholicism centers around the Cross and the Crucifixion. I can understand you trying to argue that the LDS church does have a focus on the Crucifixion, despite many members saying otherwise, but it boggles the mind to say that your church has the greatest focus on the Crucifixion without even a close second. I don't even know where to begin to show how the Crucifixion is the heart of Catholicism because it is so blatant and so, well, in-your-face. From walking into a Catholic church to reading the Catechism and the teachings of the Saints to following the liturgy and spiritual devotions -- we preach Christ crucified.

Perhaps you could elaborate how the LDS church places more focus on the Crucifixion than Catholicism?

I strongly disagree. If you are saying that the Crucifixion is more important to the LDS than to any other Christian, it is a glaring problem that there is not a single representation of the Crucifixion in an LDS church, nor (as I understand but may be wrong) in an LDS temple. Yes, I do know about the temple token that references the Crucifixion, but I say that hardly counts as putting you in the fore-front of Christian denominations that focus on the Crucifixion.

Hi there MiserereNobis! I've read your posts on here and know you to be a man of good will, so it's my pleasure to respond.

I'm sure there are a few in the know Latter Day Saints on this board who read my previous post on this thread and then your response to the same who chuckled to themselves as they wondered how in the world I could explain to a non-member how it was possible for yours truly to make such a shockingly bold assertion without, as they say, "spilling the beans." To be perfectly honest, my good man, with regard to my startling declaration, you are unfortuately on the outside looking into something that was actually intended for the eyes of experienced and knowledgeable LDS insiders only.

You see, until I came on to this board a few weeks ago, I've been doing a slow simmer for years, building up an internal "head of steam" while simultaneously biting my tongue, as over the years I've listened to Latter Day Saints of many different stripes stripes earnestly declare (with astonishing ignorance, I might add) that the symbolism surrounding the cross and crucifixion of Christ are of minor importance to the Latter Day Saints. Many of these people were and are well-seasoned members of the Church who have no excuse whatsoever for being so oblivious to the real facts of the matter.

The frustrations I've had to deal with while listening to these inexplicably uninformed people have left me mystified for many years. I was a greenhorn member of the Chuch of only five years when I got married in the Washington DC Temple in 1975, and ever since then I've known the truth on this subject. I think the main reason why many Latter Day Saints are ignorant of the overriding importance of the symbolism of Christ's crucifixion to our worship and theology can be ascribed to the phenomenon described by the Saviour when he said, "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

This is all I can say to you on the matter because I'm treading on sacred ground. But I tell you what -- gain a testimomy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for yourself and be baptized and then in fairly short order you too can find out that all I set forth in my previous post is verily true. Whether or not there will ever come a time on this earth when the general body of the Latter Day Saints will become aware of the irrefutable truths on this matter, I do not know. I sincerely apologize for any frustrations you may experience as a result of my having of necessity to remain cryptic on this subject. Perhaps it would have been better if I'd simply "kept my mouth shut" in the first place.

All the best to you and yours, Ted

Edited October 30, 2012 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

I too would like to see his reasoning.

Btw, MN, I have seen pictures of the crucifixion in lds buildings. This is probably the most common one: http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product3_715839595_10557_21099_-1__196130

However, they are not as common as the Garden or Resurrection themed art! Including Christ showing his wounds.

There is a large painted crucifixion scene (not that one- an original) in the BYU Idaho Center. The print you referenced is indeed a common one in LDS buildings.

And crosses are common decorations in temples- but usually they are incorporated into other designs so they are not apparent at first glance.

Edited October 30, 2012 by mfbukowski

[williamsmith]

here it is:

Michael Reed’s invaluable study shines new light on Mormons’ complex and ambiguous relationship with the cross. Reed’s research, the most exhaustive ever undertaken on this subject, should help other Christians understand the historic, cultural and religious context out of which Latter-day Saint attitudes toward the cross emerged—and it should help Latter-day Saints find greater spiritual meaning.--Robert Rees

All I know is the past works, the habit of "slanting" the facts of history in a negative portrayal of the Church. Likewise what I've seen so far on this subject your thesis seems to portray the Churches de-emphasis of the cross as cultural and prejudicial rather than actually doctrinal and ideologically based.

I have no idea of Robert Rees full views of the matter. And I don't doubt you're the first to study in thesis form the most on the subject.

Just know what I've seen before and see so far. BTW, a person can be "subtlety" anti-mormon by slight stripping away at the divinity and foundations of LDS theology, doctrine, history, etc., creating a negative picture. Your works are very good at that, painting pictures of naturalism, intellectual degrading etc. of how mormonism is and came to be, contrary to how things were and actually are with Mormonism.

Was simply wondering, that is all. I'm sure this forum wouldn't promote the "God Makers", so I was wondering why it was promoting much "lighter" and "subtle" works by active critics.

Edited October 30, 2012 by williamsmith

[mfbukowski]

This is all I can say to you on the matter because I'm treading on sacred ground. But I tell you what -- gain a testimomy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for yourself and be baptized and then, in fairly short order, you too can find out that all I set forth in my previous post is verily true. Whether or not there will ever come a time on this earth when the general body of the Latter Day Saints will become aware of the irrefutable truths on this matter, I do not know. I sincerely apologize for any frustrations you may experience as a result of my having of necessity to remain cryptic on this subject. Perhaps it would have been better if I'd simply "kept my mouth shut" in the first place.

Just for the record, Miserere, I know what he is talking about and endorse what he is saying here. Let's just say that the most sacred of the temple ordinances relate directly to the crucifixion. I pushed it farther than he did, and I think that is about as far as I am comfortable taking it.

[Mike Reed]

All I know is the past works, the habit of "slanting" the facts of history in a negative portrayal of the Church. Likewise what I've seen so far on this subject your thesis seems to portray the Churches de-emphasis of the cross as cultural and prejudicial rather than actually doctrinal and ideologically based.

I have no idea of Robert Rees full views of the matter. And I don't doubt you're the first to study in thesis form the most on the subject.

Just know what I've seen before and see so far. BTW, a person can be "subtlety" anti-mormon by slight stripping away at the divinity and foundations of LDS theology, doctrine, history, etc., creating a negative picture. Your works are very good at that, painting pictures of naturalism, intellectual degrading etc. of how mormonism is and came to be, contrary to how things were and actually are with Mormonism.

Was simply wondering, that is all. I'm sure this forum wouldn't promote the "God Makers", so I was wondering why it was promoting much "lighter" and "subtle" works by active critics.

feel free to write a rebuttal after reading my book. Just know that calling me antimormon and dismissing my research without substantiated argument won't be persuasive to the average reader. Neither will it be persuasive to many believing Mormons here. And I think it is safe to say that the moderators know me far better than you do.

[Mike Reed]

It is always nice to see an obsession actually produce something useful.

Ha! Thanks Cal. So ready to move on to a new obsession now.

[Mike Reed]

Thanks to all who have rooted me on in my research... As well as those that have helped me to refine my argument through debate. Thanks also for the kind words in this thread. Much appreciated. I have made so many great friends here, nonbeliever and Mormon alike.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Mike Reed

[MiserereNobis]

Btw, MN, I have seen pictures of the crucifixion in lds buildings. This is probably the most common one: http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product3_715839595_10557_21099_-1__196130

Interesting! I noticed that the Blessed Virgin Mary is dressed in Her traditional blue. I also checked out the painter -- according to the omniscient wikipedia, he was a 7th Day Adventist.