The Cross Of Christ

[teddyaware]

In consideration of the fact that the Latter Day Saints tend to de-emphasize the relative importance and severity of the sufferings endured by Christ during his crucifixion when compared to the sufferings he endured in Gethsemane; and considering the well-established fact that Latter Day Saints de-emphasize the importance of the cross of Christ as a religious symbol, and even go so far as to totally eschew it: If a friendly and non-confrontational Evangelical Christian were to quote the following scripture and then ask you why, in light of said verse, the Mormons react the way they do to Christ's cricifixion and the symbolism of his cross, what would you say to him or her in response?

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

[urroner]

Teddyaware, you have no idea what you are talking about. What you stated as fact isn't fact, it's just your opinion. Where did you get your opinion from, some anti-Mormon site?

[Tacenda]

I don't think I'd want to defend the church here because I think the Cross should be recognized. I hate the analogy my mom gave me once when I received as a gift, a Cross necklace from a friend. My mom said, and it is common," if Jesus were shot with a gun would your wear that?". I think the Cross got correlated right out of the church. I believe in the early church they had the cross on some buildings. I've heard that we de-emphasised it because we either wanted to be different or because we didn't want to be like the Catholics.

[MormonMason]

I don't think I'd want to defend the church here because I think the Cross should be recognized. I hate the analogy my mom gave me once when I received as a gift, a Cross necklace from a friend. My mom said, and it is common," if Jesus were shot with a gun would your wear that?". I think the Cross got correlated right out of the church. I believe in the early church they had the cross on some buildings. I've heard that we de-emphasised it because we either wanted to be different or because we didn't want to be like the Catholics.

Correlated? Careful. You almost showed us your slip. There is a reason why we don't focus on the cross. We focus on the living Christ, not the dead one. It is the Sacrament that the Lord instituted to remember his death.

The point is, the resurrection made it possible for salvation. Had there been no resurrection, there would have been no salvation, for just as the cross completed what was started in the garden of Gethsemane, the resurrection completed what was done on the cross. People often forget that and in their 'gospel-hobbying,' tend to focus on only one part of what brought about our salvation, namely, the cross.

[teddyaware]

Correlated? Careful. You almost showed us your slip. There is a reason why we don't focus on the cross. We focus on the living Christ, not the dead one. It is the Sacrament that the Lord instituted to remember his death.

The point is, the resurrection made it possible for salvation. Had there been no resurrection, there would have been no salvation, for just as the cross completed what was started in the garden of Gethsemane, the resurrection completed what was done on the cross. People often forget that and in their 'gospel-hobbying,' tend to focus on only one part of what brought about our salvation, namely, the cross

I was hoping to get a direct response to the quote from Paul in Galatians 6:14. Was wondering how a Latter Day Saint might respond to this specific scripture in which a prophet, seer and revelator from Apostolic times said (I paraphrase) "God forbid that I should glory in anything other than the cross of Christ and the crucifixion that took place thereupon.' With scriptures such as this one (there are others), it's not difficult to imagine why the cross and crucifix became the primary sacred symbols of historical Christianity.

So to recapitulate: How might an LDS member respond to this specific quote from Paul, when an Evangelical employs it while asking why we Latter Day Saints don't similarly revere the symbolism of Christ's cross and crucifiction?

[guerreiro9]

In consideration of the fact that the Latter Day Saints tend to de-emphasize the relative importance and severity of the sufferings endured by Christ during his crucifixion when compared to the sufferings he endured in Gethsemane

I in no way wish to diminish the severity of the sufferings Christ endured during his crucifixion, yet I do feel that the role of the cross as the specific instrument of torture used on Jesus has been over-emphasized by "historic" Christianity.

Please allow me to explain before offense is taken, where none is meant.

Over the centuries crucifixion was used by a number of different cultures as a form of torture and capital punishment. During that time span how many people were crucified? Thousands? Tens-of-Thousands? Hundreds-of-Thousands? No one knows for sure, but the evidence suggests it was used at a fairly high rate.

Again I do not wish to diminish the suffering experienced during crucifixion (it was absolutely awful and is one of the worst if not the worst form of torture ever invented), yet it was used relatively commonly anciently. There is nothing inherently unique about Christ's crucifixion to set it apart from the others. As far as the Roman soldiers were concerned this was business as usual.

What is unique about Christ's death is the fact that he was and is God, and he freely gave himself up to be tortured and murdered even though he was innocent of any wrongdoing. The specific method of torture and murder are somewhat inconsequential. What is important is that at some point prior to his death he willingly took upon himself the sins and pains of the world even though he himself was sinless. And what is supremely important is that three days following the time he gave up his life he took it up again and shattered the bonds of death and hell.

If you remove Jesus' act of taking upon himself our sins or his resurrection we are left with nothing, if you substitute his crucifixion for another means of torture and murder we have changed nothing.

I have absolutely no problem with someone using the symbol of the cross to remind them of Christ's sacrifice. If someone were to give me a crucifix I would thank them profusely and probably wear it (even though I don't commonly wear jewelry). I also understand if someone chooses to use another symbol to remind them of Christ (I prefer the fish to the cross), or none at all.

So how would an LDS member respond to the specific quote from Paul? I can only speak for one LDS member and my answer is: although I have no aversion to the cross, I feel that there are other aspects of Christ's life, sacrifice, and resurrection that are more important to me than the specific instrument by which he was tortured. I believe if you were to ask Paul the same question he would respond as I have.

[webbles]

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

I would probably respond, "I'm just as grateful as Paul that our Savior suffered, died, and then rose again. Any other questions?"

[Tacenda]

I in no way wish to diminish the severity of the sufferings Christ endured during his crucifixion, yet I do feel that the role of the cross as the specific instrument of torture used on Jesus has been over-emphasized by "historic" Christianity.

Please allow me to explain before offense is taken, where none is meant.

Over the centuries crucifixion was used by a number of different cultures as a form of torture and capital punishment. During that time span how many people were crucified? Thousands? Tens-of-Thousands? Hundreds-of-Thousands? No one knows for sure, but the evidence suggests it was used at a fairly high rate.

Again I do not wish to diminish the suffering experienced during crucifixion (it was absolutely awful and is one of the worst if not the worst form of torture ever invented), yet it was used relatively commonly anciently. There is nothing inherently unique about Christ's crucifixion to set it apart from the others. As far as the Roman soldiers were concerned this was business as usual.

What is unique about Christ's death is the fact that he was and is God, and he freely gave himself up to be tortured and murdered even though he was innocent of any wrongdoing. The specific method of torture and murder are somewhat inconsequential. What is important is that at some point prior to his death he willingly took upon himself the sins and pains of the world even though he himself was sinless. And what is supremely important is that three days following the time he gave up his life he took it up again and shattered the bonds of death and hell.

If you remove Jesus' act of taking upon himself our sins or his resurrection we are left with nothing, if you substitute his crucifixion for another means of torture and murder we have changed nothing.

I have absolutely no problem with someone using the symbol of the cross to remind them of Christ's sacrifice. If someone were to give me a crucifix I would thank them profusely and probably wear it (even though I don't commonly wear jewelry). I also understand if someone chooses to use another symbol to remind them of Christ (I prefer the fish to the cross), or none at all.

So how would an LDS member respond to the specific quote from Paul? I can only speak for one LDS member and my answer is: although I have no aversion to the cross, I feel that there are other aspects of Christ's life, sacrifice, and resurrection that are more important to me than the specific instrument by which he was tortured. I believe if you were to ask Paul the same question he would respond as I have.

I think there's s problem if there is an aversion to it like one of my friends who was incredulous when I said to her recently that there was nothing wrong with someone who is LDS wanting to wear a cross necklace.

[guerreiro9]

I think there's s problem if there is an aversion to it like one of my friends who was incredulous when I said to her recently that there was nothing wrong with someone who is LDS wanting to wear a cross necklace.

I don't feel it is my place to judge the religious and cultural practices of others. I allow a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as much right to feel an aversion for the cross as I allow a catholic or evangelical to feel an affinity for it. Even though we may not agree with their chooses there are probably deeply personal and valid reasons for their practices. I feel it is important that we try to understand why people believe the way they do, while allowing them to do so according to the dictates of their own consciences. There are valid reasons why a member of the Church of Jesus Christ would choose not to adorn themselves with the cross (even if you do not think them valid), there are also equally valid reasons why members of other Christian denominations would choose to do so.

As an aside, I do not know of any doctrinal reason why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not use the cross to adorn their buildings and publications. It appears to be entirely cultural in nature, yet should not one's culture still be respected even if we personally are accustomed to doing things differently?

Edited October 1, 2012 by guerreiro9

[volgadon]

I was hoping to get a direct response to the quote from Paul in Galatians 6:14. Was wondering how a Latter Day Saint might respond to this specific scripture in which a prophet, seer and revelator from Apostolic times said (I paraphrase) "God forbid that I should glory in anything other than the cross of Christ and the crucifixion that took place thereupon.' With scriptures such as this one (there are others), it's not difficult to imagine why the cross and crucifix became the primary sacred symbols of historical Christianity.

So to recapitulate: How might an LDS member respond to this specific quote from Paul, when an Evangelical employs it while asking why we Latter Day Saints don't similarly revere the symbolism of Christ's cross and crucifiction?

It isn't hard to see why the cross is a venerated and beloved symbol in much of Christianity. I'm perfectly fine with that. HOWEVER, verses like the one you've quoted don't necessitate the use of such visual symbolism as crucifixes. We can appreciate, love, and honour Christ's atonement even without the use of such visual symbols. If evangelicals and the like demand otherwise, why, isn't that a nice display of legalism?

[teddyaware]

So how would an LDS member respond to the specific quote from Paul? I can only speak for one LDS member and my answer is: although I have no aversion to the cross, I feel that there are other aspects of Christ's life, sacrifice, and resurrection that are more important to me than the specific instrument by which he was tortured. I believe if you were to ask Paul the same question he would respond as I have.

I appreciate all the responses received thus far, even the cranky one from urroner. But there's still been no direct response to the quote from Paul in Galatians 6:14. For the sake of convenience I'll quote it again:

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

In spite of the fact that crucifiction was a commonly employed form of execution in the ancient world, Paul is most certainly testifying in this verse that something of overriding cosmic importance happened during the time Christ was being crucified on that cross; an experience of sacrificial suffering much more all-encompassing than the mere horrifying physical agonies consequent to this form of death.

Paul asserts that while Christ hung in divine agony on that cruel cross (most especially, I believe, during those three hours of darkness prior to his giving up the ghost) he also vicariously crucified Paul -- and by extension the rest of the human race -- and he also crucified the "world." Without (for now) getting into the specific points of doctrine that stem from this verse, it must be understood it's patently obvious Paul believed something of infinite and eternal salvative importance occured during the crucifixion of the Saviour. So it seems certain the reason why Paul said that his glorifying of God was centered first and foremost in the cross and crucifiction of Christ, was because something of greatest cosmic importance to our salvation occured there.

Let's continue to work this out...

Edited October 1, 2012 by teddyaware

[guerreiro9]

In spite of the fact that crucifiction was a commonly employed form of execution in the ancient world, Paul is most certainly testifying in this verse that something of overriding cosmic importance happened during the time Christ was being crucified on that cross; an experience of sacrificial suffering much more all-encompassing than the mere horrifying physical agonies consequent to this form of death.

Then we are in complete agreement, and as usual the misunderstanding is in the semantics. Something extraordinary was occurring that was not in direct relation to the usual physical torture of the cross (although it may have occurred while Jesus was on the cross). I do not know a single believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ who would dispute this statement. What we believe is that Christ' great suffering began in the Garden of Gethsemane and was finished, as he declared, on the cross, after which he freely gave up his life.

I guess we just choose to remember the event of "overriding cosmic importance" as being separate from, and not necessarily directly connected to the cross. We remember his suffering on the cross, and do not diminish his sacrifice and his willingness to be freely tortured and murdered, but the fact that he was crucified vs. some other form of torture is not the act of overriding cosmic importance.

Edited October 1, 2012 by guerreiro9

[Jude2]

Perhaps we should look at the verse.

It’s an argument about circumcision or the physical requirements of the law of Moses. He’s saying the same thing Nephi says “…wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith”.

But where Nephi was looking forward to Christ so he says “…yet we keep the law because of the commandments” the atonement has already taken place so Paul writes,

“….I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God….”

So we don’t need to worry about circumcision anymore.

I don’t see anything in there about the need to wear a cross. I have one, it’s made in the image of the 9/11 cross and I wear it proudly.

[blackstrap]

Isn't context a marvelous thing?

[Freedom]

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

We do glory in the events of the cross - the sacrifice of the Savior culminated on the cross but started in the garden of Gethsemane. The cross did not become a symbol of Christianity until many generations after the death of the Savior. Certainly there is no evidence of using the cross as symbol in the New Testament. In fact, the only symbol that they used, as far as I am aware, was the fish. Using a cross and acknowledging the cross are two different things. We acknowledge the cross for what it was - the location of the culmination of the suffering. The cross, however, was not the culmination of the atonement His resurrection was. Since the early Christians never used the cross but rather looked to the resurrection, the evangelicals should be asking themselves - why do they stop at the cross? Why don't they look to the resurrection?

[urroner]

I don't see very many crucifixes in Protestant churches, but I do see many crosses.

I just don't appreciate somebody coming along and then dictating to me what I do and don't believe. You will find that members of the Church are very much aware at the suffering of Christ and the pain and agony that he suffered as part of the Atonement. It is talked about in the scriptures.

Without his suffering, we wouldn't be able to return back to the Father's presence.

One thing that we do focus on more is the resurrection than the typical Christian.

I have been to funerals of many different denominations and what strikes me most is that in the typical Protestant funeral which I have been to, the focus seems to be more centered on hellfire and damnation. That train of thought is completely lost on me. I like funerals to be more focused on the positives and not the negatives. I was even in one funeral where the preacher told the family that the deceased was in Hell for the rest of the eternities because he wasn't saved.

In the typical Mormon funeral, it's more focused in on the resurrection and the eternity of family. It's more of a positive experience for me, but then again, your mileage may vary.

Just because we don't perceive the Atonement the way you do teddyaware, doesn't make us wrong or in any way inferior. It just makes us different. Nothing wrong with that.

If you feel that focusing more on the suffering part of the Atonement is the most important for you, you will not hear me talking down to you and attempting to denigrate your faith in anyway. Is it possible to return that favor?

Besides, when did the early Christians start using the cross as the symbol of their religion? While the cross may have been symbolized occasionally in early Christianity, it wasn't until the end of the second century did the cross become the main symbol.

IIRC, the symbols used by the earliest Christians were the ichtyys (the fish) and first and the last letters of the Greek alphabet, alpha and omega. The cross was used only very rarely. Would you place these Christians in the same arena for not venerating the cross like a "true" Christian does? Maybe they just didn't understand the true meaning behind the cross and they focused more on the complete life of Christ, from birth to resurrection and beyond..

Edited October 1, 2012 by urroner

[danielwoods]

Then we are in complete agreement, and as usual the misunderstanding is in the semantics. Something extraordinary was occurring that was not in direct relation to the usual physical torture of the cross (although it may have occurred while Jesus was on the cross). I do not know a single believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ who would dispute this statement. What we believe is that Christ' great suffering began in the Garden of Gethsemane and was finished as he declared on the cross, after which he freely gave up his life.

I guess we just choose to remember the event of "overriding cosmic importance" as being separate from, and not necessarily directly connected to the cross. We remember his suffering on the cross, and do not diminish his sacrifice and his willingness to be freely tortured and murdered, but the fact that he was crucified vs. some other form of torture is not the act of overriding cosmic importance.

I for one am thankful that his crucifixion was an act of overriding cosmic importance. Laminin.

[guerreiro9]

I for one am thankful that his crucifixion was an act of overriding cosmic importance. Laminin.

I really don't know how to respond to this............... wait, nope still nothing.

[Thinking]

I don't think I'd want to defend the church here because I think the Cross should be recognized. I hate the analogy my mom gave me once when I received as a gift, a Cross necklace from a friend. My mom said, and it is common," if Jesus were shot with a gun would your wear that?". I think the Cross got correlated right out of the church. I believe in the early church they had the cross on some buildings. I've heard that we de-emphasised it because we either wanted to be different or because we didn't want to be like the Catholics.

[mfbukowski]

In consideration of the fact that the Latter Day Saints tend to de-emphasize the relative importance and severity of the sufferings endured by Christ during his crucifixion when compared to the sufferings he endured in Gethsemane; and considering the well-established fact that Latter Day Saints de-emphasize the importance of the cross of Christ as a religious symbol, and even go so far as to totally eschew it: If a friendly and non-confrontational Evangelical Christian were to quote the following scripture and then ask you why, in light of said verse, the Mormons react the way they do to Christ's cricifixion and the symbolism of his cross, what would you say to him or her in response?

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

I'd say that hypothetical Evangelical hypothetical Christian was wrong.

IF he asked that question, which of course he did not, in which case I would probably not answer at all.

[shalamabobbi]

I for one am thankful that his crucifixion was an act of overriding cosmic importance. Laminin.

Franktalk, you've a soulmate here.

http://www.sodahead.com/living/epic-creationist-fail/question-2120321/

[MormonMason]

I was hoping to get a direct response to the quote from Paul in Galatians 6:14. Was wondering how a Latter Day Saint might respond to this specific scripture in which a prophet, seer and revelator from Apostolic times said (I paraphrase) "God forbid that I should glory in anything other than the cross of Christ and the crucifixion that took place thereupon.' With scriptures such as this one (there are others), it's not difficult to imagine why the cross and crucifix became the primary sacred symbols of historical Christianity.

So to recapitulate: How might an LDS member respond to this specific quote from Paul, when an Evangelical employs it while asking why we Latter Day Saints don't similarly revere the symbolism of Christ's cross and crucifiction?

Well, I would respond by saying "Amen!" I would state that I, too, glory that by the blood of his cross I am saved. I would explain to them that were it not for the resurrection the cross would be meaningless, quoting 1 Corinthians 15 and other texts. Finally, I would politely remind said person that this text is not an instruction to wear crucifixes and install them in churches so as to be able to remember Christ, and that I am perfectly happy to use the method that Jesus enjoined upon us to remember his death on the cross every week--the Sacrament.

That said, I certainly do not have an aversion to the cross. As a Knight Templar in the York Rite, it is required that I wear a few of them on my uniform. I also have a lapel pin, a Masonic jewel and a hat from the Scottish Rite, as one having the rank and decoration of a Knight Commander of the Court of Honour, that has, of all things, a cross as part of them. To date, I have never had anyone who has seen it complain of it to me when I have had to go straight from a Knight Templar Easter Observance or Christmas Observance to Church wearing my uniform without the hat.

Edited October 1, 2012 by MormonMason

[Bernard Gui]

In consideration of the fact that the Latter Day Saints tend to de-emphasize the relative importance and severity of the sufferings endured by Christ during his crucifixion when compared to the sufferings he endured in Gethsemane; and considering the well-established fact that Latter Day Saints de-emphasize the importance of the cross of Christ as a religious symbol, and even go so far as to totally eschew it: If a friendly and non-confrontational Evangelical Christian were to quote the following scripture and then ask you why, in light of said verse, the Mormons react the way they do to Christ's cricifixion and the symbolism of his cross, what would you say to him or her in response?

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

I would say the Evangelical Christian is only hearing the part of the song he wants to hear.

Hymn 184

Upon the Cross of Calvary

Solemnly

1. Upon the cross of Calvary

They crucified our Lord

And sealed with blood the sacrifice

That sanctified his word.

2. Upon the cross he meekly died

For all mankind to see

That death unlocks the passageway

Into eternity.

3. Upon the cross our Savior died,

But, dying, brought new birth

Through resurrection’s miracle

To all the sons of earth.

Text: Vilate Raile, 1890–1954. © 1948 IRI

Music: Leroy J. Robertson, 1896–1971. © 1948 IRI

Luke 23:33, 46

Helaman 14:14–19

Hymn 186

Again We Meet around the Board

Thoughtfully

1. Again we meet around the board

Of Jesus, our redeeming Lord,

With faith in his atoning blood,

Our only access unto God.

2. He left his Father’s courts on high,

With man to live, for man to die,

A world to purchase and to save

And seal a triumph o’er the grave.

3. Help us, O God, to realize

The great atoning sacrifice,

The gift of thy beloved Son,

The Prince of Life, the Holy One.

4. Oh, bless us, Lord, for Jesus’ sake,

That we may worthily partake

These emblems of the flesh and blood

Of our Redeemer, Savior, God.

Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1804–1887

Music: George Careless, 1839–1932

Helaman 5:9

Mormon 9:29

Edited October 1, 2012 by Bernard Gui

[spartacus]

error, full post below.

Edited October 1, 2012 by spartacus

[Bernard Gui]

Hymn 191

Behold the Great Redeemer Die

Reverently

1. Behold the great Redeemer die,

A broken law to satisfy.

He dies a sacrifice for sin,

He dies a sacrifice for sin,

That man may live and glory win.

2. While guilty men his pains deride,

They pierce his hands and feet and side;

And with insulting scoffs and scorns,

And with insulting scoffs and scorns,

They crown his head with plaited thorns.

3. Although in agony he hung,

No murm’ring word escaped his tongue.

His high commission to fulfill,

His high commission to fulfill,

He magnified his Father’s will.

4. “Father, from me remove this cup.

Yet, if thou wilt, I’ll drink it up.

I’ve done the work thou gavest me,

I’ve done the work thou gavest me;

Receive my spirit unto thee.”

5. He died, and at the awful sight

The sun in shame withdrew its light!

Earth trembled, and all nature sighed,

Earth trembled, and all nature sighed

In dread response, “A God has died!”

6. He lives—he lives. We humbly now

Around these sacred symbols bow

And seek, as Saints of latter days,

And seek, as Saints of latter days,

To do his will and live his praise.

Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1804–1887

Music: George Careless, 1839–1932

D&C 18:11

Luke 22:42; Luke 23:46

Hymn 195

How Great the Wisdom and the Love

Calmly

1. How great the wisdom and the love

That filled the courts on high

And sent the Savior from above

To suffer, bleed, and die!

2. His precious blood he freely spilt;

His life he freely gave,

A sinless sacrifice for guilt,

A dying world to save.

3. By strict obedience Jesus won

The prize with glory rife:

“Thy will, O God, not mine be done,”

Adorned his mortal life.

4. He marked the path and led the way,

And ev’ry point defines

To light and life and endless day

Where God’s full presence shines.

5. In mem’ry of the broken flesh

We eat the broken bread

And witness with the cup, afresh,

Our faith in Christ, our Head.

6. How great, how glorious, how complete

Redemption’s grand design,

Where justice, love, and mercy meet

In harmony divine!

Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1804–1887

Music: Thomas McIntyre, 1833–1914

Moses 4:1–2

Alma 42:14–15