The Cross Of Christ

[Bernard Gui]

Hymn 193

I Stand All Amazed

Thoughtfully

1. I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,

Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.

I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,

That for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died.

[Chorus]

Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me

Enough to die for me!

Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!

2. I marvel that he would descend from his throne divine

To rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine,

That he should extend his great love unto such as I,

Sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify.

3. I think of his hands pierced and bleeding to pay the debt!

Such mercy, such love and devotion can I forget?

No, no, I will praise and adore at the mercy seat,

Until at the glorified throne I kneel at his feet.

Text and music: Charles H. Gabriel, 1856–1932

Mosiah 3:5–8

John 15:13

Hymn 190

In Memory of the Crucified

Prayerfully

1. In mem’ry of the Crucified,

Our Father, we have met this hour.

May thy sweet Spirit here abide,

That all may feel its glowing pow’r.

2. Our Savior, in Gethsemane,

Shrank not to drink the bitter cup,

And then, for us, on Calvary,

Upon the cross was lifted up.

3. We rev’rence with the broken bread,

Together with the cup we take,

The body bruised, the lifeblood shed,

A sinless ransom for our sake.

4. Our Father, may this sacrament

To ev’ry soul be sanctified

Who eats and drinks with pure intent,

That in our Savior he’ll abide.

Text: Frank I. Kooyman, 1880–1963. © 1948 IRI

Music: Alexander Schreiner, 1901–1987. © 1948 IRI

D&C 20:75

D&C 19:18–19

[Bernard Gui]

Hymn 181

Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King

Worshipfully

1. Jesus of Nazareth,

Savior and King!

Triumphant over death,

Life thou didst bring,

Leaving thy Father’s throne,

On earth to live,

Thy work to do alone,

Thy life to give.

2. While of this broken bread

Humbly we eat,

Our thoughts to thee are led

In rev’rence sweet.

Bruised, broken, torn for us

On Calvary’s hill—

Thy suff’ring borne for us

Lives with us still.

3. As to our lips the cup

Gently we press,

Our hearts are lifted up;

Thy name we bless!

Guide us where’er we go,

Till in the end

Life evermore we’ll know

Through thee, our Friend.

Text and music: Hugh W. Dougall, 1872–1963

John 6:38–40

John 15:13

Hymn 196

Jesus, Once of Humble Birth

Solemnly

1. Jesus, once of humble birth,

Now in glory comes to earth.

Once he suffered grief and pain;

Now he comes on earth to reign.

Now he comes on earth to reign.

2. Once a meek and lowly Lamb,

Now the Lord, the great I Am.

Once upon the cross he bowed;

Now his chariot is the cloud.

Now his chariot is the cloud.

3. Once he groaned in blood and tears;

Now in glory he appears.

Once rejected by his own,

Now their King he shall be known.

Now their King he shall be known.

4. Once forsaken, left alone,

Now exalted to a throne.

Once all things he meekly bore,

But he now will bear no more.

But he now will bear no more.

Text: Parley P. Pratt, 1807–1857

Music: Giacomo Meyerbeer, 1791–1864, adapted

Luke 2:7

Matthew 25:31

[Bernard Gui]

Hymn 197

O Savior, Thou Who Wearest a Crown

Thoughtfully

1. O Savior, thou who wearest

A crown of piercing thorn,

The pain thou meekly bearest,

Weigh’d down by grief and scorn.

The soldiers mock and flail thee;

For drink they give thee gall;

Upon the cross they nail thee

To die, O King of all.

2. No creature is so lowly,

No sinner so depraved,

But feels thy presence holy

And thru thy love is saved.

Tho craven friends betray thee,

They feel thy love’s embrace;

The very foes who slay thee

Have access to thy grace.

3. Thy sacrifice transcended

The mortal law’s demand;

Thy mercy is extended

To ev’ry time and land.

No more can Satan harm us,

Tho long the fight may be,

Nor fear of death alarm us;

We live, O Lord, thru thee.

4. What praises can we offer

To thank thee, Lord most high?

In our place thou didst suffer;

In our place thou didst die,

By heaven’s plan appointed,

To ransom us, our King.

O Jesus, the anointed,

To thee our love we bring!

Text: Karen Lynn Davidson, b. 1943. © 1985 IRI

Music: Hans Leo Hassler, 1564–1612; adapted by J. S. Bach, 1685–1750

2 Nephi 2:6–9

Matthew 27:26–31, 34–35

Hymn 189

O Thou, Before the World Began

Prayerfully

1. O thou, before the world began,

Ordained a sacrifice for man,

And by th’eternal Spirit made

An off’ring in the sinner’s stead;

Our everlasting Priest art thou,

Pleading thy death for sinners now.

2. Thy off’ring still continues new

Before the righteous Father’s view.

Thyself the Lamb forever slain;

Thy priesthood doth unchanged remain.

Thy years, O God, can never fail,

Nor thy blest work within the veil.

3. Oh, that our faith may never move

But stand unshaken as thy love,

Sure evidence of things unseen;

Now let it pass the years between

And view thee bleeding on the tree:

My Lord, my God, who dies for me.

Text: William H. Turton, 1856–1938

Music: Frank W. Asper, 1892–1973

D&C 45:3–5

1 Peter 2:24

[Bernard Gui]

Hymn 185

Reverently and Meekly Now

Reverently

1. Rev’rently and meekly now,

Let thy head most humbly bow.

Think of me, thou ransomed one;

Think what I for thee have done.

With my blood that dripped like rain,

Sweat in agony of pain,

With my body on the tree

I have ransomed even thee.

2. In this bread now blest for thee,

Emblem of my body see;

In this water or this wine,

Emblem of my blood divine.

Oh, remember what was done

That the sinner might be won.

On the cross of Calvary

I have suffered death for thee.

3. Bid thine heart all strife to cease;

With thy brethren be at peace.

Oh, forgive as thou wouldst be

E’en forgiven now by me.

In the solemn faith of prayer

Cast upon me all thy care,

And my Spirit’s grace shall be

Like a fountain unto thee.

4. At the throne I intercede;

For thee ever do I plead.

I have loved thee as thy friend,

With a love that cannot end.

Be obedient, I implore,

Prayerful, watchful evermore,

And be constant unto me,

That thy Savior I may be.

Text: Joseph L. Townsend, 1849–1942

Music: Ebenezer Beesley, 1840–1906

D&C 45:3–5

D&C 19:16–19

Hymn 194

There Is a Green Hill Far Away

Reverently

1. There is a green hill far away,

Without a city wall,

Where the dear Lord was crucified,

Who died to save us all.

2. We may not know, we cannot tell,

What pains he had to bear,

But we believe it was for us

He hung and suffered there.

3. There was no other good enough

To pay the price of sin.

He only could unlock the gate

Of heav’n and let us in.

4. Oh, dearly, dearly has he loved!

And we must love him too,

And trust in his redeeming blood,

And try his works to do.

Text: Cecil Frances Alexander, 1818–1895

Music: John H. Gower, 1855–1922

John 19:16–20

Hebrews 13:12

[Storm Rider]

In consideration of the fact that the Latter Day Saints tend to de-emphasize the relative importance and severity of the sufferings endured by Christ during his crucifixion when compared to the sufferings he endured in Gethsemane; and considering the well-established fact that Latter Day Saints de-emphasize the importance of the cross of Christ as a religious symbol, and even go so far as to totally eschew it: If a friendly and non-confrontational Evangelical Christian were to quote the following scripture and then ask you why, in light of said verse, the Mormons react the way they do to Christ's cricifixion and the symbolism of his cross, what would you say to him or her in response?

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

Teddy, we don't de-emphasize the cross, rather we emphasize the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is true that we do not wear crosses as a people, but this has more to do with being focused more on acting as a disciple rather than simply wearing the signs of a disciple. We are told in the scriptures to go into our closets and pray in secret rather than on the street before men.

If someone wants to wear a cross, wear a cross. If someone feels the need to see a cross more, put one in your front yard; your back yard; etc.

Does wearing a symbol for all to see beneift Jesus Christ or the individual? What is the importance of praying in secret rather than out in public?

[Bernard Gui]

Hymn 177

’Tis Sweet To Sing the Matchless Love

Reverently

1. ’Tis sweet to sing the matchless love

Of Him who left his home above

And came to earth—oh, wondrous plan—

To suffer, bleed, and die for man!

[Chorus]

For Jesus died on Calvary,

That all thru him might ransomed be.

Then sing hosannas to his name;

Let heav’n and earth his love proclaim.

2. ’Tis good to meet each Sabbath day

And, in his own appointed way,

Partake the emblems of his death,

And thus renew our love and faith.

3. Oh, blessed hour! communion sweet!

When children, friends, and teachers meet

And, in remembrance of his grace,

Unite in sweetest songs of praise.

Text: George A. Manwaring, 1854–1889

Music: Ebenezer Beesley, 1840–1906

Tune name: HANCOCK

Matthew 20:28

Moroni 6:5–6

Hymn 173

While of These Emblems We Partake

Reverently

1. While of these emblems we partake

In Jesus’ name and for his sake,

Let us remember and be sure

Our hearts and hands are clean and pure.

2. For us the blood of Christ was shed;

For us on Calvary’s cross he bled,

And thus dispelled the awful gloom

That else were this creation’s doom.

3. The law was broken; Jesus died

That justice might be satisfied,

That man might not remain a slave

Of death, of hell, or of the grave,

4. But rise triumphant from the tomb,

And in eternal splendor bloom,

Freed from the pow’r of death and pain,

With Christ, the Lord, to rule and reign.

Text: John Nicholson, 1839–1909

Music: Samuel McBurney, b. 1847

Tune name: SAUL

Moroni 6:6

Mosiah 15:7–9

[De Groote]

I misunderstood that the original post was an honest inquiry from a "friendly evangelical." If I had understood it was from a member of the LDS Church I would have written something different. So I deleted my original response here.

Edited October 1, 2012 by De Groote

[Bernard Gui]

I can think of no better way to demonstrate the relationship between cross and garden, savior and sinner, God and man, than

to post the words of the songs we LDS sing every Sunday as we vow to remember our Savior, take his name upon us, and keep his commandments.

This is perhaps the most important way we celebrate the crucifixion and resurrection, or as we call them, the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Hymn 171

With Humble Heart

Prayerfully

1. With humble heart, I bow my head

And think of thee, O Savior, Lord.

I take the water and the bread

To show remembrance of thy word.

2. Help me remember, I implore,

Thou gav’st thy life on Calvary,

That I might live forevermore

And grow, dear Lord, to be like thee.

3. To be like thee! I lift my eyes

From earth below toward heav’n above,

That I may learn from vaulted skies

How I my worthiness can prove.

4. As I walk daily here on earth,

Give me thy Spirit as I seek

A change of heart, another birth,

And grow, dear Lord, to be like thee.

Text: Zara Sabin, 1892–1980. © 1985 IRI

Music: Thomas L. Durham, b. 1950. © 1985 IRI

3 Nephi 18:6–11

Moroni 10:32–33

Edited October 1, 2012 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Teddy, we don't de-emphasize the cross, rather we emphasize the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is true that we do not wear crosses as a people, but this has more to do with being focused more on acting as a disciple rather than simply wearing the signs of a disciple. We are told in the scriptures to go into our closets and pray in secret rather than on the street before men.

If someone wants to wear a cross, wear a cross. If someone feels the need to see a cross more, put one in your front yard; your back yard; etc.

Does wearing a symbol for all to see beneift Jesus Christ or the individual? What is the importance of praying in secret rather than out in public?

There is nothing in the LDS Church that prohibits a member from wearing a cross or displaying one in one's home.

[Bernard Gui]

Indeed, the cross is at the center of our most sacred worship.

[Vookman]

Early Christians, according to at least one historian I have read, as in the 1st two centuries after Christ, were offended by crosses, seeing they were the means of killing the Savior.

Furthermore, the cross was not in all probability a "t", but rather a "T" or an "I". Jehovah's witnesses have argued about this since forever, but they are probably correct.

Since we have spires on every chapel in the Church, we actually do have the symbol of his death on every LDS building. Just happens we are historically accurate, and it has a double meaning.

[teddyaware]

For those of you who may have presumed by the tenor of my comments on this thread that I am not LDS, you are quite wrong. I've been a totally active member of the Church since joining in August of 1970, just prior to my 21st birthday.

My purpose in starting this discussion is to help make my fellow Latter Day Saints aware of the incontrovertable fact that the sybolism of the cross and crucifiction of Christ is spoken of with great positivity in Paul's epistles. The quote I cited from Galatians 6 is just one of several verses wherein Paul glories in the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of Christ.

So what am I trying to accomplish by starting this thread? I'm hoping to help my fellow Latter Day Saints to understand that traditional Christians are only following the lead of the Apostle Paul in coming to revere the symbol of the cross. He's the one who started it. And if he didn't start the actual usage of the cross as a sacred physical symbol, he certainly provided ample rational and inspiration for doing so.

Let's also realize another reason why the symbol of the cross was important to Paul is because the Gethsemanic sufferings of Christ (his descent into outer darkness and eternal separation from God) that began in the Garden and culminated on the cross, was the hard part of the work of the atonement. By contrast, his resurrection day was a time of great joy. Again by contrast, Gethsemane and Calvary were incomprehensibly diffcult, terrifying and agonizing ordeals of infinite and eternal sacrificial love.

Is it not true that a war hero is more loved and remembered for his valor and selfless sacrifice in the heat of battle, than he is for the awards ceremony in which he is honored, glorified and decorated for the courage he previously displayed during the horrors of war?

So it is with Christ: His glorious resurrection, wherein he ascended above all things, came as a direct result of his first courageously descending below all things. The resurrection was the joyous day when he received glory, honor and reward for having successfully conquered the eternal foes of death, hell and the devil, in a momentous life and death struggle of infinite and eternal consequense.

Edited October 1, 2012 by teddyaware

[spartacus]

Some thoughts:

1) What symbols do LDS use? - The two that immediately come to mind are the edifice symbol of the Angel Moroni and the personal "symbol" so to speak of the CTR ring. There are others, of course (what's up with the spires?). But then the next questions are "What do these symbols stand for? Why do LDS use them?"

Note for 1): LDS state that they emphasize the life and resurrection, but I haven't come across any symbol for that. I remember considering the question of the value or effectiveness of the cross as a symbol long before I came across this issue with LDS and thought "How would one symbolize the resurrection? A circle with a semicircle beside and attached to it to symbolize the open tomb???"

2) I hear LDS, including those here, speak of the cross vs. the resurrection, also using "cross" and "crucifix" interchangeably. I believe that the cross was meant to be distinct from the crucifix by being "empty". In being an empty cross, the symbol served to not "dwell" or "celebrate" or symbolize ONLY the death of Christ (as the crucifix was viewed to do by empty cross proponents) but to be a double symbol of both the death and the resurrection. An empty cross implies that the body is elsewhere, where? the tomb, yes but then resurrected. As my note above pointed out a resurrection symbol is kind of difficult to make, so I believe, the empty cross is used not only to remember the death but be one solution for symbolizing the resurrection.

3) The "late" date of the cross as PHYSICAL symbol has been referenced by at least a couple on this thread, but this seems to ignore the fact that "the cross" is spoken of VERY often in Scripture. It is used as a verbal symbol of much meaning. (see my last point as well for Jesus' symbolic use of the cross) So that it was not used as a physical symbol "early enough" is irrelevant, the fact is that it was a symbol of much, even to the first Christians.

4) And this brings me to an important point which, I believe, can bring some understanding to the importance of this issue for non-LDS Christians (without getting into a rant about victimization). The cross is important to non-Catholic-non-LDS Christians for a number of reasons. I cannot list them all here but this is a useful sample:

First, LDS, perhaps a little too often and too quickly, assert that there is nothing special in the way Christ died. I've heard LDS say, "all kinds of people died by crucifixion". This thread has other examples of the same. However, the fact that others died this way does not remove the importance of the fact that God's Son died this way. Crucifixion was meant for the low, outcast, and enemy. Roman citizens were executed in the "respectable" way of beheading by sword, not the cross. Just as the manger has great meaning for the condescension and humility of God, so too does the cross. Also, the cross was humiliating, how much more for God? How much more humility is shown by the Creator, but to be displayd disgracefully (and among common criminals) and for shame? You might say that other humans were disgraced in the same way, but, given non-LDS Christian theology of infinite and categorical difference between humans and God, it would be like saying that it didn't matter that what was humiliating to a dog was also done to a human.

Second, the cross is significant as a fulfillment of the "type" of the bronze serpent "raised" to save the Hebrews from the fiery snakes in Numbers 21:6. Just as "the Lord said...that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live" so too non-LDS Christians (and LDS Christians) believe that it is the sacrifice that Christ made that allows us to live.

Third, I've heard non-LDS Christians speak of the significance of the "cross in the wilderness" from Numbers 2. Now there is controversy over the accuracy of this "symbolism" but it can at least be said that the wording chosen by God here is distinctly in the form of a cross.

Again there's more, but I will end with this. Jesus spoke of "taking up one's cross" twice in Matthew, twice in Mark, and twice in Luke. He spoke of both those who do take it up and those who do not. I am certainly not suggesting that Jesus was speaking of the symbol (and so I am not equating LDS with those who do not take it up), but the symbol does speak of this act.

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9-23

Jesus spoke of the cross often. He used it in His commands for those who would follow Him. This is very significant, I think, because He spoke of the cross long before His execution and sacrifice upon it. It was obviously symbolic to Jesus. It was important enough for God to record and repeat it 6 times in Scripture.

So for all these reasons and more the cross is important to non-LDS Christians (I have never heard any LDS use these reasons to give meaning or learn lessons from the cross of Christ's sacrifice) and they believe it was important to God, given Scripture's record, and so it is not simply a minor detail to dispute, nor an object of legalism, or to decry LDS; it's just important.

[Bernard Gui]

For those of you who may have presumed by the tenor of my comments on this thread that I am not LDS, you are quite wrong. I've been a totally active member of the Church since joining in August of 1970, just prior to my 21st birthday.

My purpose in starting this discussion is to help make my fellow Latter Day Saints aware of the incontrovertable fact that the sybolism of the cross and crucifiction of Christ is spoken of with great positivity in Paul's epistles. The quote I cited from Galatians 6 is just one of several verses wherein Paul glories in the symbolism of the cross and crucifixion of Christ.

So what am I trying to accomplish by starting this thread? I'm hoping to help my fellow Latter Day Saints to understand that traditional Christians are only following the lead of the Apostle Paul in coming to revere the symbol of the cross. He's the one who started it. And if he didn't start the actual usage of the cross as a sacred physical symbol, he certainly provided ample rational for doing so.

If you are as you say, then you probably know the words of the hymns I have posted by memory. They refute your criticisms.

Do you believe the cross Paul had in mind is the one people wear as jewelry or put on top of buildings? Is this what he was promoting?

[MormonMason]

Early Christians, according to at least one historian I have read, as in the 1st two centuries after Christ, were offended by crosses, seeing they were the means of killing the Savior.

I recall reading something about that, too. I just do not recall where.

Furthermore, the cross was not in all probability a "t", but rather a "T" or an "I". Jehovah's witnesses have argued about this since forever, but they are probably correct.

I disagree that the Jehovah's Witnesses are right about this. And, this was not always their position. Under Rutherford they had no problem stating that Christ was crucified on a cross. Even the artwork in Rutherford's books affirms this. See his book, Creation, for examples.

Since we have spires on every chapel in the Church, we actually do have the symbol of his death on every LDS building. Just happens we are historically accurate, and it has a double meaning.

Ed Decker suggested that they were symbolic of the nails of his crucifixion and that Mormons used them to pierce Christ at his Second Coming. The Spires often are nothing more than fancy lightning rods.

Edited October 1, 2012 by MormonMason

[DH]

Hi Teddyaware,

I hope you'll forgive some of the others who have been rude in response to your question. I am active LDS and sometimes wear a Celtic cross. Although I accept that the Resurrection is very important, I also think Gethsemane and the Cross are important. They're all part of the Atonement, and I have no problem with people using the Cross as a symbol. That Jesus was willing to suffer and die like that was an amazing display of his incredible love for us, and worthy of our honor.

Mormons were not always against use of the Cross as a symbol. Check out this article: http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_12256269

Peace,

DH

[zerinus]

In consideration of the fact that the Latter Day Saints tend to de-emphasize the relative importance and severity of the sufferings endured by Christ during his crucifixion when compared to the sufferings he endured in Gethsemane; . . .

That may have been true in the past, but it has been changing. As an LDS, you should be aware that the importance of the suffering of Christ on the cross is more readily acknowledged by the Church today than it has been in the past. The sufferings of Christ on the cross are no less significant (if not more so) than His sufferings in Gethsamane. That is true LDS doctrine.

. . . and considering the well-established fact that Latter Day Saints de-emphasize the importance of the cross of Christ as a religious symbol, and even go so far as to totally eschew it: . . .

A symbol is a different thing. We don't use the symbol of the cross, but I am not aware of any rule in the Church that forbids it. Try wearing a cross when you go to Church from now on, and see what happens. I don't think anything important will happen. Some Church members may be surprised by it, but I don't think you will be told off by the administration for doing so.

If a friendly and non-confrontational Evangelical Christian were to quote the following scripture and then ask you why, in light of said verse, the Mormons react the way they do to Christ's cricifixion and the symbolism of his cross, what would you say to him or her in response?

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

I would say I have no problen with that scripture at all. Can you tell me where it says in that verse that I should wear a cross round my neck, or stick a cross on the wall of my Church?

I was hoping to get a direct response to the quote from Paul in Galatians 6:14. Was wondering how a Latter Day Saint might respond to this specific scripture in which a prophet, seer and revelator from Apostolic times said (I paraphrase) "God forbid that I should glory in anything other than the cross of Christ and the crucifixion that took place thereupon.' With scriptures such as this one (there are others), it's not difficult to imagine why the cross and crucifix became the primary sacred symbols of historical Christianity.

So to recapitulate: How might an LDS member respond to this specific quote from Paul, when an Evangelical employs it while asking why we Latter Day Saints don't similarly revere the symbolism of Christ's cross and crucifiction?

See above. I have no problems with it. What else would you expect an LDS member to say?

I appreciate all the responses received thus far, even the cranky one from urroner. But there's still been no direct response to the quote from Paul in Galatians 6:14. For the sake of convenience I'll quote it again:

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14

In spite of the fact that crucifiction was a commonly employed form of execution in the ancient world, Paul is most certainly testifying in this verse that something of overriding cosmic importance happened during the time Christ was being crucified on that cross; an experience of sacrificial suffering much more all-encompassing than the mere horrifying physical agonies consequent to this form of death.

I entirely agree, and I think the Church agrees too. But again I say, where does it say that I should wear a cross round my neck? I have no problem with those who want to; but why do you think I need to? Where is the scripture that says that?

Edited October 1, 2012 by zerinus

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.ldshymns.com/lds-hymns-176-200/184-upon-the-cross-of-calvary

[altersteve]

I've said this before, but I love the cross. I think it's a beautiful symbol.

[Tacenda]

I think a few LDS are under the impression that Jesus suffered more in the garden than on the cross because they've been given a false impression that he sweat drops of blood. I know I believed this until I heard different.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think a few LDS [have] been given a false impression that he sweat drops of blood. I know I believed this until I heard different.

On this point, I'm willing to trust an eyewitness over whomever you've been listening to: 'Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink. Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men'.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

On this point, I'm willing to trust an eyewitness over whomever you've been listening to: 'Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink. Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men'.

I should have pointed out the non-lds view of the scripture in Luke 22:39. It mentions "became like drops of blood" not "became drops of blood".

[Hamba Tuhan]

I should have pointed out the non-lds view of the scripture in Luke 22:39. It mentions "became like drops of blood" not "became drops of blood".

Thankfully, we Latter-day Saints have the Lord's own words on the subject. I read D&C 19 frequently. It leaves me feeling humbled and inexpressibly grateful to the Saviour for His supernal gift to us.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Teddyaware, you have no idea what you are talking about. What you stated as fact isn't fact, it's just your opinion. Where did you get your opinion from, some anti-Mormon site?

Agreed we view the cross as part of the atonement of all mankind, if there is any downplay it is the Garden of Gethsemane, which is a recent EV phenomenon.

[teddyaware]

I appreciate the interest and even the passion shown in the responses to my postings on this thread.

Just to make things clear, I am an active member of the LDS Church who was bapitzed in August of 1970

I started this discussion not because I'm advocating for our chapels and temples being adorned with crosses or our people wearing crosses as jewelry around their necks. Rather, for quite some time I've been concerned that many Latter Day Saints have been unnecessarily alienating our traditional Christian brethren by making it seem as if the Latter Day Saints believe the crucifixion of Christ was almost a perfunctory afterthought in God's eyes, when compared to the Lord's sufferings in Gethsemane.

I've been around long enough to have heard many Easter Sunday sacrament talks wherein the speaker minimized Christ sufferings on Calvary when compared to his sufferings in Gethsemane. One of the most memorable of these talks had a high-ranking local LDS leader say, "Christ's sufferings on the cross were a cake walk (yes, he used the words "cake walk") when compared the much sorer sufferings he endured in the Garden of Gethsemane!" That one really got me riled up (I was much more passionate in those days); I couldn't take it anymore, so I made a last minute change to the topic of my Priesthood lesson planned for that day, and spent the last hour teaching the combined Elders Quorum and High Priest Group, enlightening the brethren on Pauls teaching that, from his perpective, the atonement happened primarily on the cross. The brother who made the comment in Sacrament Meeting was there, but I didn't hold back (must say I'm much more mellow these days, now that I'm getting older, and would now just let it ride).

Why was I so zealous, passionate and exercised on this point of doctrine? In reality, if the truth be told, I believe Christ's sufferings on the cross were more severe (if that's possible) than his sufferings in Gethsemane. I quote from Apostle James E. Talmage's masterpiece, Jesus the Christ:

“It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in most terrible reality. That the supreme sacrifice of the Son might be consummated in all its fulness, the Father seems to have withdrawn the support of His immediate Presence, leaving to the Savior of men the glory of complete victory over the forces of sin and death."

I found the following quote from Robert Millet, which validates my premise on this thread:

"It is probably the case that if one hundred Protestants were asked where the Atonement of Christ took place, those one hundred persons would answer: At Golgotha, on the cross.It is also no doubt true that if one hundred Latter-day Saints were asked the same question, a large percentage would respond: In Gethsemane, in the garden. In fact, the sufferings of Jesus Christ that began in the Garden of Gethsemane were consumated on the cross. Between noon and 3:00 P.M. on that fateful Friday, all of the agonies of Gethsemane returned, as the Spirit of our Heavenly Father was once again withdrawn from the Suffering Servant."

So in addition to the horrific physical agonies attendant to crucifixion, and the terrible mental torments and insults hurled at the Saviour by his enemies -- who mocked, tempted and derided him as they stood before the cross -- the scourged Saviour had these inhuman tortures compounded infinitely and eternally by simultaneously suffering the spiritual agonies of a soul damned and condemned to the lowest level of hell (he descended below all things).

So at the risk of being accused of being an "ark steadier:" Will those of us among the LDS Church who habitually deminish the sufferings of Christ on the cross please stop doing so? It's so unnecessary. And it's unnecessarily alienating to our non-LDS Christian brothers and sisters out there.

Edited October 1, 2012 by teddyaware