Kingdom With No End or General Apostasy

[Ahab]

Thank God for the Papacy!

I don't see any evidence showing God came up with the idea of a bishop being appointed to govern the whole Church.

Well, wait a minute, I take that back. We do have a Presiding Bishop who reports directly to the First Presidency of the Church.

Maybe that's where guys got confused almost 2000 years ago.

[Tacenda]

I hear you. I go to both mass and sacrament meeting on Sunday mornings. And I get good feelings at each of them. Catholics say that God's church would never go away based on some of the scriptures you have used. Any scriptures referring to a falling away have to do with individuals leaving the church, not the entire church going away. And Mormons say just the opposite -- they see a falling away and a need for a restoration. I guess a person just has to make a choice based on the best knowledge and inspiration they can get.

I just get my sermons from the internet on occasion. But never from mass. I wonder if they have them online. I usually listen to other Christian sects. But thank you for helping me feel I'm not alone and not terrible for venturing on the outside.

[guerreiro9]

Tacenda,

I am afraid that you will not receive a definitive answer about the "correct" interpretation of a passage of scripture in the way that you seem to want it. You will not be able to say definitively "Yes, these are Jesus' exact words and meaning" or even be able say definitively that Jesus exists. At some point you will have to choose which interpretation (or none of them) to believe. How individuals come to the decision of what to believe is deeply personal, but it is a decision.

If you want The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be true, then choose to believe it is, and you will find many interpretations to support your belief. If you do not want it to be true, then you will similarly find interpretations to support your belief.

As I mentioned above, I do not know of any teachings of Joseph Smith that are at variance with any of the scriptures in question, but that is my personal interpretation of the scriptures in accordance with what I choose to believe.

[Bart Burk]

I just get my sermons from the internet on occasion. But never from mass. I wonder if they have them online. I usually listen to other Christian sects. But thank you for helping me feel I'm not alone and not terrible for venturing on the outside.

Do you get EWTN on your local cable outlet? They have mass everyday at 8 in the morning and 7 at night Eastern Time. And several preachers all day long. And EWTN is on the radio in many areas. And you can listen to it and watch it on the internet:

http://www.ewtn.com/...?myselection=us

And here is the take on the apostasy and Mormonism from a Catholic point of view. I don't endorse everything that Madrid says (I think he sometimes misrepresents the Mormon position), but it might be worth reading for anyone interested in the Catholic position:

http://patrickmadrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Mormonism_and_Great_Apostasy.pdf

Edited September 21, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Sis W.]

"....and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Gates are not for just keeping things out--they also keep things in---but through the Restoration of Teples and Temple ordinances---the gates of hell will not prevail---they will open and spirits there in will have an opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and His Atonement and salvation will thus come to all of God's children who desire it.

[Tacenda]

Do you get EWTN on your local cable outlet? They have mass everyday at 8 in the morning and 7 at night Eastern Time. And several preachers all day long. And EWTN is on the radio in many areas. And you can listen to it and watch it on the internet:

http://www.ewtn.com/...?myselection=us

I'll watch, I hope it will be a differant experience than I had at a Catholic funeral & wedding I've attended, with lots of readings etc. But to each their own. I'll give it a try. Thank you!

[wenglund]

Just seeking answers.

Actually, you are doing more than just that--whether intended or not. You are also positing accusatory assumptions like either Jesus or Joseph lied, when you have yet to demonstrate your either/or case, let alone that there is lie one way or the other.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

Actually, you are doing more than just that--whether intended or not. You are also positing accusatory assumptions like either Jesus or Joseph lied, when you have yet to demonstrate your either/or case, let alone that there is lie one way or the other.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade did you see the post above where I admitted to the OP being wrong? I just parroted the accusation of the anti here. Without thinking about it and to get yours and others POV.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Matt 16:18 And I also say unto thee, That thou Peter, and upon this rock I will build this church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Ephesians 3:21 To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 1:32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom would have no end."

1 Kings 19:13-18 God has always been capable of keeping His followers from being wiped out and He promised to do so.

Are any of these scriptures false or in need of further explanations? Thoughts?

Only men can lie.

[Vance]

According to the anti's, in those scriptures! Atleast those are the ones they used for proof.

I would have thought that by now you would have come to understand, rather clearly, that anti's can NOT BE TRUSTED!!!!!

[Calm]

Well that's how I heard it from them. But that's how I'll get my answers hopefully too.

It seems to me that you will not be getting any answers until you stop letting others define the questions for you and start thinking critically on your own (as in 'why do they (anyone you are reading or listening to, not just antis) choose to phrase their comments this way', 'why do they interpret the scripture this way', 'is there another way of phrasing or interpreting that makes more sense to me' and then going to God to get input from him about your ponderings.

[wenglund]

Wade did you see the post above where I admitted to the OP being wrong?

Not until after I had posted my previous message.

I just parroted the accusation of the anti here. Without thinking about it and to get yours and others POV.

I appreciate the clarification. Hopefully, going forward you will give more thought to the title and content of your OPs, if not also your posts. It will save us all a lot of time.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Garden Girl]

Why the attention grabbing anti title?

Because that's just typical Tacenda...

GG

Edit to add... Sorry, I was just being snarky... gray day...

Edited September 21, 2012 by Garden Girl

[cesc101]

Tacenda,

I really do admire you, most of the questions you bring up are things some of us struggle with too - but we've also searched and discovered personal answers.

My point (like someone mentioned earlier) is that everything is a matter of interpretation (and of-course each side with an agenda to press), in the end; "you'll only see what your eyes wants to see!"

[oh! BTW, My wife recently pointed how the story of Jesus sounded very much like that of Mithras. Should i loose faith...?]

[ERayR]

Because that's just typical Tacenda...

GG

And my post was just my way of pointing out that she is way off base again. Hoping to get her to think before she posts.

Edited September 21, 2012 by ERayR

[Tacenda]

Thanks all of you, let this one go down the rabbit hole and I'll try to figure it out with prayer and scriptures, a task that is getting more foreign as I go along sadly.

[Calm]

try to figure it out with prayer and scriptures, a task that is getting more foreign as I go along sadly.

Why do you think that is? Generally the more we participate in an activity the more familiar it becomes, not the other way around....unless you are saying you've not been using prayer and study of the scriptures lately?

PS: I have this book, it may be helpful to you and it is even free online!

http://maxwellinstit...oks/?bookid=125

It even has a chapter on asking questions.

Edited September 21, 2012 by calmoriah

[Garden Girl]

Where in there does it say the Church would never fall away?

These scriptures support the need for the restoration of "the Church."

Acts 3 speaks of the crucifixtion and resurrection (v.15) and then v. 17-21 speaks of the need for repentence according to those things which God before had shewed the people through the prophets that our sins may be blotted out, "when the times of refreshing shall come" from the presence of the Lord... and that God shall send Jesus Christ whom the heavens must receive until the "restitution of all things" which God has spoken by his prophets.

Also there is Rev 14:6-7 ... "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water.

GG

[Tacenda]

Why do you think that is? Generally the more we participate in an activity the more familiar it becomes, not the other way around....unless you are saying you've not been using prayer and study of the scriptures lately?

That's what I'm saying. And several who are like me, and they are out there believe me, struggle in these areas also. I understand why the church admonishes everyone to have prayer and scripture study all the time. Family scripture study is my favorite but has been difficult with busy young adult kids. It's usually only when my husband is trying to prove a point now that he'll snatch up the scriptures. And I really have a terrible time with individual scripture study. I was an Ensign reader mostly except when we'd read scriptures as a family. I guess when you lose faith you don't act as obedient to the admonishments of the church leaders and this is what it turns out to be for some people. Though usually they are ones that become athiest, something I'm terrified of doing.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

These scriptures support the need for the restoration of "the Church."

Acts 3 speaks of the crucifixtion and resurrection (v.15) and then v. 17-21 speaks of the need for repentence according to those things which God before had shewed the people through the prophets that our sins may be blotted out, "when the times of refreshing shall come" from the presence of the Lord... and that God shall send Jesus Christ whom the heavens must receive until the "restitution of all things" which God has spoken by his prophets.

Also there is Rev 14:6-7 ... "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water.

GG

That's a good one and I've heard it before but forgotten!

[ERayR]

Tacenda try this ;

https://www.lds.org/youth/article/gaining-and-keeping-a-testimony?lang=enghttps:

And this:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/testimony?lang=eng

And this:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/reverence-invites-revelation?lang=eng

[Calm]

That's what I'm saying. And several who are like me, and they are out there believe me, struggle in these areas also. I understand why the church admonishes everyone to have prayer and scripture study all the time. Family scripture study is my favorite but has been difficult with busy young adult kids. It's usually only when my husband is trying to prove a point now that he'll snatch up the scriptures. And I really have a terrible time with individual scripture study. I was an Ensign reader mostly except when we'd read scriptures as a family. I guess when you lose faith you don't act as obedient to the admonishments of the church leaders and this is what it turns out to be for some people. Though usually they are ones that become athiest, something I'm terrified of doing.

If possible, if I were you, I would pull the plug on my computer and I would be driven to find reading material to replace it...voila, the scriptures are near at hand, why not read them?

You might want to get versions that set the verses into more typical reading format, such as Grant Hardy's Reader's Edition of the BoM, well worth every penny. I assume there are similar versions of the Old and New Testament out there.

I know that knowing something can help doesn't always provide us with enough motivation to use it when we are troubled. For example, I know exercise will make a difference for me though because I haven't had much success with it in the past due to not knowing the proper way to go about it for my particular neurological/movement disorder and other 'special' health issues so I ended up feeling sicker after exercising then before, I don't feel emotionally invested in exercise even though now I know enough to do it right. When I actually need to exercise the most when I am not feeling good and low of energy, it is the hardest to get myself to move. Intellectually I can tell myself to get off the bed and get on the treadmill all I want, until I find a way to get emotionally committed to it, I am not going anywhere. Sometimes finding that emotional commitment takes being as low as one can get unfortunately. I am hoping I am not going to allow myself to get in that bad of a state before the light goes on for me.

If you are hating the way you feel right now and it seems at least a very uncomfortable emotional rollercoaster from the way you post on the board, you need to seriously look at your life and evaluate what is helping and what is hurting your efforts to find some sort of positive stability and movement forward. And then set things up so that doing those things that can help you get there are in your face at the right place and time, like have a small poster where your eyes light every morning reminding you to read scriptures or some uplifting book before getting out of bed or if you have an ipod, download scriptures and fall asleep listening to them and wake up to them in the morning. Get on an email list that sends you out a certain amount of verses a day to read. Commit yourself to reading just a verse of scripture before you turn on the computer each time or saying a little prayer to yourself before turning on the TV. With all this technology out there, there are plenty of aids to provide us with opportunities to study if we want them.

And if we keep putting roadblocks in our own way, then we need to be honest with ourselves that we really don't want the answers we know are out there and at that point, we need to deal with why we prefer the self-destructive behaviours.

Edited September 21, 2012 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

I am going to say the OP is lying.

[Tacenda]

If possible, if I were you, I would pull the plug on my computer and I would be driven to find reading material to replace it...voila, the scriptures are near at hand, why not read them?

You might want to get versions that set the verses into more typical reading format, such as Grant Hardy's Reader's Edition of the BoM, well worth every penny. I assume there are similar versions of the Old and New Testament out there.

I know that knowing something can help doesn't always provide us with enough motivation to use it when we are troubled. For example, I know exercise will make a difference for me though because I haven't had much success with it in the past due to not knowing the proper way to go about it for my particular neurological/movement disorder and other 'special' health issues so I ended up feeling sicker after exercising then before, I don't feel emotionally invested in exercise even though now I know enough to do it right. When I actually need to exercise the most when I am not feeling good and low of energy, it is the hardest to get myself to move. Intellectually I can tell myself to get off the bed and get on the treadmill all I want, until I find a way to get emotionally committed to it, I am not going anywhere. Sometimes finding that emotional commitment takes being as low as one can get unfortunately. I am hoping I am not going to allow myself to get in that bad of a state before the light goes on for me.

If you are hating the way you feel right now and it seems at least a very uncomfortable emotional rollercoaster from the way you post on the board, you need to seriously look at your life and evaluate what is helping and what is hurting your efforts to find some sort of positive stability and movement forward. And then set things up so that doing those things that can help you get there are in your face at the right place and time, like have a small poster where your eyes light every morning reminding you to read scriptures or some uplifting book before getting out of bed or if you have an ipod, download scriptures and fall asleep listening to them and wake up to them in the morning. Get on an email list that sends you out a certain amount of verses a day to read. With all this technology out there, there are plenty of aids to provide us with opportunities to study if we want them.

And if we keep putting roadblocks in our own way, then we need to be honest with ourselves that we really don't want the answers we know are out there and at that point, we need to deal with why we prefer the self-destructive behaviours.

And the tears flow. Thanks Cal, for putting up with my antics so long. I will try. I've been incredibly lazy in the scripture and prayer area. Why do you and others make it so difficult to just be done with the church? Is the church true? Did God adopt it after awhile, I have wondered about this, since there is so much evidence against. Maybe it's about time I look at the evidence for it now.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda try this ;

https://www.lds.org/...?lang=enghttps:

And this:

https://www.lds.org/...timony?lang=eng

And this:

https://www.lds.org/...lation?lang=eng

Guess who hasn't had a subscription of the Ensign/The New Era for like 3 yrs. now? Me. These articles slipped past me for that reason. ERayR thanks.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Tacenda