Kingdom With No End or General Apostasy

[Tacenda]

Tacenda:

Just wanted to say I am glad that you haven't left yet. I think if you remain faithful and keep asking your questions you will come to a point in your life where your testimony is stronger than half the people on this site (not counting the non-believers). Stick with it! you'll be fine.

You might regret you said that! This is truly a great place for people to get things off their chest. You can't bring these things up in sunday school.

[Tacenda]

If possible, if I were you, I would pull the plug on my computer and I would be driven to find reading material to replace it...voila, the scriptures are near at hand, why not read them?

You might want to get versions that set the verses into more typical reading format, such as Grant Hardy's Reader's Edition of the BoM, well worth every penny. I assume there are similar versions of the Old and New Testament out there.

I know that knowing something can help doesn't always provide us with enough motivation to use it when we are troubled. For example, I know exercise will make a difference for me though because I haven't had much success with it in the past due to not knowing the proper way to go about it for my particular neurological/movement disorder and other 'special' health issues so I ended up feeling sicker after exercising then before, I don't feel emotionally invested in exercise even though now I know enough to do it right. When I actually need to exercise the most when I am not feeling good and low of energy, it is the hardest to get myself to move. Intellectually I can tell myself to get off the bed and get on the treadmill all I want, until I find a way to get emotionally committed to it, I am not going anywhere. Sometimes finding that emotional commitment takes being as low as one can get unfortunately. I am hoping I am not going to allow myself to get in that bad of a state before the light goes on for me.

If you are hating the way you feel right now and it seems at least a very uncomfortable emotional rollercoaster from the way you post on the board, you need to seriously look at your life and evaluate what is helping and what is hurting your efforts to find some sort of positive stability and movement forward. And then set things up so that doing those things that can help you get there are in your face at the right place and time, like have a small poster where your eyes light every morning reminding you to read scriptures or some uplifting book before getting out of bed or if you have an ipod, download scriptures and fall asleep listening to them and wake up to them in the morning. Get on an email list that sends you out a certain amount of verses a day to read. Commit yourself to reading just a verse of scripture before you turn on the computer each time or saying a little prayer to yourself before turning on the TV. With all this technology out there, there are plenty of aids to provide us with opportunities to study if we want them.

And if we keep putting roadblocks in our own way, then we need to be honest with ourselves that we really don't want the answers we know are out there and at that point, we need to deal with why we prefer the self-destructive behaviours.

My husband would love me to pull the plug on the computer. But he's gone alot too so it fills my time and fulfills a need in my life that I must not be getting elsewhere. Most normal people do not want to talk about the church non stop.

[Tacenda]

Mods you rock. The change to my OP title looks great.

[KevinG]

You might regret you said that! This is truly a great place for people to get things off their chest. You can't bring these things up in sunday school.

I bring many of them up in High Priests group. We all have a chuckle and go back to the lesson. Perhaps it is just living in the mission field of Georgia but the average bear out here seems much more informed and less shocked by Mormon history and doctrine than what I hear reported about the naivete and fragile testimonies of Saints in the center of Zion.

Edited September 22, 2012 by KevinG

[TAO]

Tacenda, just so you know, there's a verse in the Bible which predicts an apostacy of sorts before the second coming.

[Tacenda]

Clean your keyboard out. That is probably the problem. Do you perhaps eat while at the keyboard? If so, then sometimes things get dropped into there.

Lol, yes I do eat at the computer but usually I'm careful. No, I think I have a virus because my internet explorer keeps shutting the sites down.

[Tacenda]

I bring many of them up in High Priests group. We all have a chuckle and go back to the lesson. Perhaps it is just living in the mission field of Georgia but the average bear out here seems much more informed and less shocked by Mormon history and doctrine than what I hear reported about the naivete and fragile testimonies of Saints in the center of Zion.

Yes, what is up with that? You'd think it'd be the opposite since most of us are life long members.

[Glenn101]

Tacenda, you are going to find people here that can answer just about any question you may have on the scriptures, church history, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, or just about any LDS subject, controversal or not. And both pro and con. There will be no harm in you continuing your search for answers. You will learn a lot.

But the final answer will have to be between you and the Lord. I have an agenda. It is the TBM type. I have been through my trials and the Lord was the only one who could save me and answer my personal spritual quest questions.

If He did it for a person as hard headed and obstinate as I was (and probably still am) I know that He will do it for you. Keep asking the questions of everyone you desire, but please do not leave the Lord out of that circle.

Glenn

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, you are going to find people here that can answer just about any question you may have on the scriptures, church history, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, or just about any LDS subject, controversal or not. And both pro and con. There will be no harm in you continuing your search for answers. You will learn a lot.

But the final answer will have to be between you and the Lord. I have an agenda. It is the TBM type. I have been through my trials and the Lord was the only one who could save me and answer my personal spritual quest questions.

If He did it for a person as hard headed and obstinate as I was (and probably still am) I know that He will do it for you. Keep asking the questions of everyone you desire, but please do not leave the Lord out of that circle.

Glenn

I have left the Lord and it scared me that He was dismissed so easily. I quit praying on a consistant basis thinking he was tiring of my neverending demand for answers. But I forget too easily how much better it is when I do pray.

[ronin]

ok I haven't read all the posts on this thread yet but I get the general gist of having questions about the authenticity of the church and the need for a restoration.so first things first take a deep breath and relax!!! sit back and think of all the things you believe about God and Christ. They are real they exist and they love you they also gave us a large amount of information on who they are and what they want us to do. I find every time I have a question if I take a minute to go back to the basics of "love one another as I have loved you" and I work from there everything works out. I find that if there are people judging others religion and trying to bring it down then they don't reflect the "love one another" directive given to us by Christ. That also holds true for all members of the church if you are trying to bash someone else's religion you are definetly not following Christ. All of this being the case concentrate on the basics and everything else will work out. I personally realized a while back that I don't have to do everything that they expect me to do in church (like shave my goatee, or accept all callings offered, or wear a white shirt, or got o church every sunday) just to make it to the celestial Kingdom. For some members that would be unthinkable but it's true. Your individual spirituallity is yours and yours alone no one can make you return to God the apostles can't get you there no matter how much you listen to their talks or study them likewise the scriptures can't get you there either especially if you search them looking to prove something to yourself or someone else. The real problem is figuring out what you believe and making sure it follows the directive of Christ of "love one another" if you can get your beliefs to follow that then it doesn't matter what church you are in you will be headed in the right direction. Now that I have rambled on I will say that I am an active member and will remain one because even though their are people in the church who will disagree with certain of my beliefs (reincarnation being one) I still think following the principles of the church can bring me closer to God and that is my ultimate objective.

[volgadon]

Tacenda, can I recommend a book? The Prophets, by Abraham Joshua Heschel. Heschel, a rabbi, was a man with profound personal conviction and compassion, even marching with Martin Luther King. His lifelong cause was to keep alive thesense of awe and wonder at the encounter between man and God. He taught that not only was man in need of God, God was in need of man, and, indeed, searches for him. Kind of like what I heard Terryl Givens say about God, that his capacity for infinite love is equal to his capacity for infinite suffering. Revelation was another of Heschel's primary interests, and The Prophets is a classic. I would recommend it for those who want to go deeper into the Bible than what the Bible Dictionary and institute manuals provide, but that don't want to tread through endless, highly technical volumes of academic festschrift. Heschel's book examines not only a prophet's role, but also what a prophet experiences and how a prophet relays the message to us. Heschel was a very articulate, moving writer, and profound thinker. In most things, his perspective complements LDS teachings and scripture quite nicely, so that is a plus. It will also help you get away from the often highly-divisive world of evangelical-LDS polemics, to where you could gain a fresh appreciation of the scriptures and the restoration.

[Calm]

I second the recommendation.

[volgadon]

I have left the Lord and it scared me that He was dismissed so easily. I quit praying on a consistant basis thinking he was tiring of my neverending demand for answers. But I forget too easily how much better it is when I do pray.

Tacenda, I've been there, quite recently in fact. Some almost disastrous things happened, not going to go into detail here, but they helped push me back on track. No matter what else you do, keep reading the scriptures and praying each day, even if you don't read much and your prayers are short.

Edited September 22, 2012 by volgadon

[Tacenda]

ok I haven't read all the posts on this thread yet but I get the general gist of having questions about the authenticity of the church and the need for a restoration.so first things first take a deep breath and relax!!! sit back and think of all the things you believe about God and Christ. They are real they exist and they love you they also gave us a large amount of information on who they are and what they want us to do. I find every time I have a question if I take a minute to go back to the basics of "love one another as I have loved you" and I work from there everything works out. I find that if there are people judging others religion and trying to bring it down then they don't reflect the "love one another" directive given to us by Christ. That also holds true for all members of the church if you are trying to bash someone else's religion you are definetly not following Christ. All of this being the case concentrate on the basics and everything else will work out. I personally realized a while back that I don't have to do everything that they expect me to do in church (like shave my goatee, or accept all callings offered, or wear a white shirt, or got o church every sunday) just to make it to the celestial Kingdom. For some members that would be unthinkable but it's true. Your individual spirituallity is yours and yours alone no one can make you return to God the apostles can't get you there no matter how much you listen to their talks or study them likewise the scriptures can't get you there either especially if you search them looking to prove something to yourself or someone else. The real problem is figuring out what you believe and making sure it follows the directive of Christ of "love one another" if you can get your beliefs to follow that then it doesn't matter what church you are in you will be headed in the right direction. Now that I have rambled on I will say that I am an active member and will remain one because even though their are people in the church who will disagree with certain of my beliefs (reincarnation being one) I still think following the principles of the church can bring me closer to God and that is my ultimate objective.

I don't know who said this but they said something to the effect that we'll be very surprlsed at who makes it to the CK and who doesn't.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, can I recommend a book? The Prophets, by Abraham Joshua Heschel. Heschel, a rabbi, was a man with profound personal conviction and compassion, even marching with Martin Luther King. His lifelong cause was to keep alive thesense of awe and wonder at the encounter between man and God. He taught that not only was man in need of God, God was in need of man, and, indeed, searches for him. Kind of like what I heard Terryl Givens say about God, that his capacity for infinite love is equal to his capacity for infinite suffering. Revelation was another of Heschel's primary interests, and The Prophets is a classic. I would recommend it for those who want to go deeper into the Bible than what the Bible Dictionary and institute manuals provide, but that don't want to tread through endless, highly technical volumes of academic festschrift. Heschel's book examines not only a prophet's role, but also what a prophet experiences and how a prophet relays the message to us. Heschel was a very articulate, moving writer, and profound thinker. In most things, his perspective complements LDS teachings and scripture quite nicely, so that is a plus. It will also help you get away from the often highly-divisive world of evangelical-LDS polemics, to where you could gain a fresh appreciation of the scriptures and the restoration.

I will check it out.

Thanks for the suggestion. It sounds interesting.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, I've been there, quite recently in fact. Some almost disastrous things happened, not going to go into detail here, but they helped push me back on track. No matter what else you do, keep reading the scriptures and praying each day, even if you don't read much and your prayers are short.

K, I'll try.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Tacenda

[volgadon]

I'd love to even be able to comprehend such a book.

Don't sell yourself short. Besides, his writing is accessible. You'll do just fine.

But will check it out. Thanks for the suggestion. It sounds interesting.

I got my copy for a handful of dollars on amazon.

[Tacenda]

Don't sell yourself short. Besides, his writing is accessible. You'll do just fine.

I got my copy for a handful of dollars on amazon.

My first stop might be the library.

[volgadon]

My first stop might be the library.

True, true.

[ronin]

I don't know who said this but they said something to the effect that we'll be very surprlsed at who makes it to the CK and who doesn't.

it was me who said that and yes you will be surprised at who makes it and who doesn't. unfortunately most of the people in organized religion try to follow certain guidelines and seem to forget the direction they are supposed to be heading. They can't see the forest for the trees so to speak. as members of a religion we tend to rely on the scriptures or leaders for personal direction. What we tend to forget is that all the scriptures tell us about spiritual experiences had by the original writers of the records. We forget that the whole purpose of religion is not to just have faith in someone elses recorded spiritual experience but to seek out our own spiritual experiences. A case in point my father has dreams of the future I have known this for years but never really believed it might be true until I experienced the same thing. It scared the hell out of me so I started researching dreams the best place I found to research dreams was the scriptures A prime example that springs to mind is Lehis dreams it was comforting to know I wasn't crazy and that people have been having dreams like this for millennia. This might be a different example of a spiritual experience but if anything it does let me know that everything happens for a reason. (by the way dreaming the future is not nearly unique I know of five in my personal aquaintance who do this on a regular basis and several more I have talked to on various forums) For a long time the sharing of dreams and prophesy and visions was a major part of the church in J.S.' day along with speaking in tongues. Nowadays if I told the wrong person in church about my dreams and certain of my beliefs because of my dreams I could be pushed out and shunned. My point is that if you worry to much about the scriptures and how people can twist them to say whatever they want you will never get closer to God. If you can take the scriptures as what they are supposed to be as in an example of how we can have our own spiritual growth and our own experiences to bring us closer to God then we can rise above the whole this scripture contradicts that one and we can start on our own path to Christ.

[zerinus]

Thank God for the Papacy!

We thank thee, O God, for a prophet

To guide us in these latter days!

---Hymn 19 in LDS hymn book

Edited September 22, 2012 by zerinus

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know who said this but they said something to the effect that we'll be very surprlsed at who makes it to the CK and who doesn't.

I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised that we made it.

[Saints Alive]

You might regret you said that! This is truly a great place for people to get things off their chest. You can't bring these things up in sunday school.

Well I have been where you are. There is a lot of stuff out there, when framed the right way, makes the church and early prophets look bad. Its all a matter of how its framed. My saving grace was that I refused to simply take the critics POV for granted. There is nothing that I have read yet that didn't end up being distorted or an outright lie. Its kind of funny that way... critics accuse the Church of distorting history but that is exactly what the critics do to try and prove the church wrong.

[Tacenda]

Well I have been where you are. There is a lot of stuff out there, when framed the right way, makes the church and early prophets look bad. Its all a matter of how its framed. My saving grace was that I refused to simply take the critics POV for granted. There is nothing that I have read yet that didn't end up being distorted or an outright lie. Its kind of funny that way... critics accuse the Church of distorting history but that is exactly what the critics do to try and prove the church wrong.

You should write a paper on how to undistort them because I'm having some difficulty, especially after reading the JOD. Journal of Discoures, Unveiling Mormonism, Rough Stone Rolling, In Sacred Loneliness. All written by LDS. Only one book, Unveiling Mormonism written by a now non member, Grant Palmer, who resigned this year. I really trust this book though. It tells the truth, though the truth can hurt.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

You should write a paper on how to undistort them because I'm having some difficulty, especially after reading the JOD. Journal of Discoures, Unveiling Mormonism, Rough Stone Rolling, In Sacred Loneliness. All written by LDS. Only one book, Unveiling Mormonism written by a now non member, Grant Palmer, who resigned this year. I really trust this book though. It tells the truth, though the truth can hurt.

Over and over in the NT, Jesus commands people not to doubt but be believing. Have you thought, at this point in your life where you are having trouble believing, about reading books that will help strengthen your faith rather than your doubt?

It seems likely that doubt has a lot of power to shape a person's perspective for the worse, if Christ specifically and repeatedly commands against it.