Kingdom With No End or General Apostasy

[MiserereNobis]

Just seeking answers. I'm in a search, do I leave or do I stay? Everything in my world at the time, is staying LDS. It will shatter my world if I leave. When I'm around believing saints everything seems like it'll be okay. But when I listen to shows or sermons on the internet about the Savior and His church never falling away, I'm afraid again and think I have to make a choice. Choose Joseph's version or Jesus' version. I'm not as stemmed in the Gospel as some of you on here. I've never had a powerful witness. My witness has always been in the members and the spirit they exude. On occasion I'll be disappointed though. I just thought some on here would have some thoughts about these scriptures and have a scripture or two about Christ's church needing to be restored and maybe it'll keep me going in the LDS faith a little while longer. BTW some of the OP on here have the anti look also....check it out.

For a Catholic perspective, check out this helpful site:

Fisheaters: For Protestants

Here is an article on Peter being the first Pope (and deals with the "rock" issue): http://www.fisheaters.com/rock.html

Here is an article on the early Church (the marks of the Church): http://www.fisheaters.com/marksofchurch.html

May God bless you with His Grace as you ponder your questions and search for truth.

[ERayR]

And the tears flow. Thanks Cal, for putting up with my antics so long. I will try. I've been incredibly lazy in the scripture and prayer area. Why do you and others make it so difficult to just be done with the church? Is the church true? Did God adopt it after awhile, I have wondered about this, since there is so much evidence against. Maybe it's about time I look at the evidence for it now.

Good idea.

[MiserereNobis]

Tacenda,

Have them explain these then:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 -- For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This refers to specific individuals and churches, but not to Christ's Church as a whole. As Our Lord said, "behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 -- That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Again, referring to specific individuals and churches.

As the anti's attempt to deny the reality of a falling away, we testify that it did, indeed, happen and is the reason a restoration was necessary.

I don't consider myself an "anti" in the sense that I am out to attack and use questionable tactics to do so. However, if "anti" simply means "non-Mormon" than I suppose I fit the bill Anyways, this is circular reasoning ("begging the question"). You are assuming your conclusion in your premises. You are saying that an apostasy occurred because a restoration was necessary and a restoration is only necessary if an apostasy occurred.

You confess that you have not had a deep spiritual experience -- maybe it is time to make the effort.

While I think I understand what you are saying here, many people object to Mormons saying that if you haven't received a "burning in the bosom" than you haven't tried hard enough.

Yes, we have to make an effort at finding truth, and it seems to me that the poster is doing just that.

[MiserereNobis]

I just get my sermons from the internet on occasion. But never from mass. I wonder if they have them online. I usually listen to other Christian sects. But thank you for helping me feel I'm not alone and not terrible for venturing on the outside.

Here is an excellent source for orthodox and traditional Catholic sermons online: audiosancto

[Calm]

Why do you and others make it so difficult to just be done with the church?

I am not sure what you mean by this. Each week we are given an assignment to read so that we can be better prepared to discuss it with each other at church, plus there is a lot of scripture reading in classes themselves...at least the ones I go to. There are LDS communities online that you probably could get some others to participate in scripture reading discussions, perhaps even here in Social Hall if you wanted to start one and see if it goes anywhere.

I will make a few more observations and I hope by doing so I am not crossing any lines into too personal stuff. I may be completely off track.

It seems to me that perhaps you are interested in antisites because of their passion and commitment, that when you are reading their material you experience for yourself some of that passion and sense of commitment...which in and of itself is a wonderful feeling. Life needs passion, we need a sense of commitment to feel important to others and for our lives to have meaning to us. Perhaps you are thinking that Bible Study will give you an opportunity to be motivated to study by sharing the passion for the scriptures that those there feel. Maybe that is what is so appealing to you about this site, there are so many passionate people on it.

If this is so, you need to think seriously about how you have participated in the past with passion and commitment in whatever activity you felt that way about and how you were able to maintain it or not. I don't think your answer is to look to others to find it, you need to find it in yourself otherwise the positive feelings of passion and commitment begin to fade as soon as you remove yourself from those whose feelings you are sharing in.

Now how to get that passion for yourself, I can't give you that answer. I am looking for it myself.

Got to go, will come back to this later if it looks like you are interested. Got to get the dog to the vet.

Edited September 21, 2012 by calmoriah

[guerreiro9]

I don't consider myself an "anti" in the sense that I am out to attack and use questionable tactics to do so. However, if "anti" simply means "non-Mormon" than I suppose I fit the bill

The label "anti-mormon" is not usually applied to those who are simply not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but to those who actively oppose the church in all things (even if they would normally agree with that thing otherwise). I have noticed a strange phenomenon occurring lately in which those on opposite sides of issues are becoming increasingly polarized. Perhaps this has been occurring all along and I have only become aware of it recently, but I find it increasingly disturbing. Republicans vs Democrats, Apple vs Android, Mormons vs Anti-Mormons, and the list goes on. It is almost as if becoming a member of one of these groups makes it physically impossible for you to recognize anything redeeming in your counterpart. If a Democrat stated that the sky was blue, the Republican would respond that no it is not, it is actually azure, and oh by the way you are at fault for all of the problems in our country. To which the Democrat would respond in kind.

MiserereNobis,

I have read a number of your posts on this forum, and you are certainly not an "anti" as I would use the label anyway. I appreciate your comments and the contrasting perspective they provide. You have posted questions and answers with civility and thoughtfulness. I hope you continue to frequent this forum and provide insights from our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Kindest Regards,

guerreiro9

Edited September 21, 2012 by guerreiro9

[MiserereNobis]

The label "anti-mormon" is not usually applied to those who are simply not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but to those who actively oppose the church in all things (even if they would normally agree with that thing otherwise). I have noticed a strange phenomenon occurring lately in which those on opposite sides of issues are becoming increasingly polarized. Perhaps this has been occurring all along and I have only become aware of it recently, but I find it increasingly disturbing. Republicans vs Democrats, Apple vs Android, Mormons vs Anti-Mormons, and the list goes on. It is almost as if becoming a member of one of these groups makes it physically impossible for you to recognize anything redeeming in your counterpart. If a Democrat stated that the sky was blue, the Republican would respond that no it is not, it is actually azure, and oh by the way you are at fault for all of the problems in our country. To which the Democrat would respond in kind.

I agree -- polarizations blind us to any common truths we may share and then that further blinds us to truth in general. Your example with the Republicans and Democrats is apt.

MiserereNobis,

I have read a number of your posts on this forum, and you are certainly not an "anti" as I would use the label anyway. I appreciate your comments and the contrasting perspective they provide. You have posted questions and answers with civility and thoughtfulness. I hope you continue to frequent this forum and provide insights from our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Kindest Regards,

guerreiro9

Thank you kindly, guerreiro. I appreciate the level of civility and openness on this board and am enjoying my time here greatly.

[Tacenda]

I am not sure what you mean by this. Each week we are given an assignment to read so that we can be better prepared to discuss it with each other at church, plus there is a lot of scripture reading in classes themselves...at least the ones I go to. There are LDS communities online that you probably could get some others to participate in scripture reading discussions, perhaps even here in Social Hall if you wanted to start one and see if it goes anywhere.

I will make a few more observations and I hope by doing so I am not crossing any lines into too personal stuff. I may be completely off track.

It seems to me that perhaps you are interested in antisites because of their passion and commitment, that when you are reading their material you experience for yourself some of that passion and sense of commitment...which in and of itself is a wonderful feeling. Life needs passion, we need a sense of commitment to feel important to others and for our lives to have meaning to us. Perhaps you are thinking that Bible Study will give you an opportunity to be motivated to study by sharing the passion for the scriptures that those there feel. Maybe that is what is so appealing to you about this site, there are so many passionate people on it.

If this is so, you need to think seriously about how you have participated in the past with passion and commitment in whatever activity you felt that way about and how you were able to maintain it or not. I don't think your answer is to look to others to find it, you need to find it in yourself otherwise the positive feelings of passion and commitment begin to fade as soon as you remove yourself from those whose feelings you are sharing in.

Now how to get that passion for yourself, I can't give you that answer. I am looking for it myself.

Got to go, will come back to this later if it looks like you are interested. Got to get the dog to the vet.

I meant that it is so hard to leave when you nearly always sound like you know what's best and and sound like my mom!

[ERayR]

I meant that it is so hard to leave when you nearly always sound like you know what's best and and sound like my mom!

Mom knows best.

[Tacenda]

Here is an excellent source for orthodox and traditional Catholic sermons online: audiosancto

Listening right now, and it's not a bunch of readings. I like it so far. I think it's cool to listen to other's sermons. Have you listened to LDS General Conference?

[Calm]

I meant that it is so hard to leave when you nearly always sound like you know what's best and and sound like my mom!

LOL, my mother told me I have the tendency to mother the world, so that doesn't surprise me too much. (since I picked it up from her, she can hardly fault me on that though). Edited September 21, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I meant that it is so hard to leave when you nearly always sound like you know what's best and and sound like my mom!

I misread your comment, btw. I read it as "done at church" meaning scripture study and not "done with church". Bet my answer was rather confusing.

That's what happens when I am in too much of a hurry because I am not patient enough to wait until I actually have time to say something and instead must say it "Now!" Patience is not one of my virtues.

[ERayR]

I misread your comment, btw. I read it as "done at church" meaning scripture study and not "done with church". Bet my answer was rather confusing.

That's what happens when I am in too much of a hurry because I am not patient enough to wait until I actually have time to say something and instead must say it "Now!" Patience is not one of my virtues.

I am fine as long as I can get things accomplished right now.

[Saints Alive]

Tacenda:

Just wanted to say I am glad that you haven't left yet. I think if you remain faithful and keep asking your questions you will come to a point in your life where your testimony is stronger than half the people on this site (not counting the non-believers). Stick with it! you'll be fine.

[urroner]

I have found that putting complex questions on the back burner occasionally really helps, especially when it comes to questions that can drastically affect my life and/or the lives of those around me.

A couple of examples:

At the end of Revelation 22, John writes

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

When I was young, I had some strong critics of the Church throw this scripture at me and said that this was proof enough that God didn't want anything added to the Bible. This is one of those things I stuck on the back burner. I didn't say anything to anybody about this, I didn't ask any questions, I just waited for an answer.

A year or so later, I was listening to several smart type people discuss the Bible and one of them mentioned that Revelation wasn't the last book written. She said that the Gospel of John and his epistles were very probably written after he wrote Revelation. That set off a bell in my head. It was within days I had also heard that what John had written was a oft used "curse" of his days that was kind of like a copyright. He was telling people not to mess with his writings or God would curse them, so this "curse" related only to Revelation and not the whole Bible. It couldn't relate to the whole Bible since the whole Bible hadn't even been written.

Eventually, in the middle of a discussion with a EVer, I conceded the point that God might have been referring to scriptures and that man wasn't suppose to add or take away from the scriptures....but those verses said nothing about God add to or taking away from the scriptures.

But the one that was on the back burner for a long time was the one about Christ, Peter, the rock, gates of Hell, and never prevailing. I had this thrown at me for a long time and I never really had a good answer. On the old ZLMB board, them were glory days, somebody mentioned that we had been interpreting this scripture very wrong, especially this part:

and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Okay, how had we been misinterpreting Matt 16:18. Basically, "hell" in this verse had nothing to do with Satan and the wicked. The word "hell" in modern English doesn't reflect the Greek word "Hades" in the original Greek. Hades is not a place where the devil lives, but Hades is the place of the dead, so "gates of hell" meant death or maybe even the grave.

Matt 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Here is a link to a FAIR article about this: Apostasy/The "gates of hell". This concept isn't completely Mormon since I have heard several Evangelical scholars talk about it this way.

At the end of the verse, what is the word "it" referring to? Is it a reference to "my church" or "this rock" which the church is built upon? I say that "it" refers not to the church, rather it refers to "this rock" or Christ. In other words, death will not prevail against Christ.

"prevail" means "to be or prove superior in strength, power, or influence." So, as I understand this verse now, it has nothing to do with Hell or Satan having superior strength to Christ, Peter, or even the church, it is about death not being stronger than or prevailing against the Messiah or the Christ.

Once I understood this, I was glad that this problem had been placed on a back burner.

BTW, in a recent thread (here) where I asked about what the different meanings of "rock" could refer to, I heard several, but the one that kind of came out of left field and struck me as very interesting was one that Volgadon gave: "...is the idea of a fortified stronghold, usually in the mountains."

He said there were several references in Psalms about the "rock" being a "fortress"

Psalm 18:2 - The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Psalm 62:6 - He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

Psalm 71:3 - Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.

I never thought of that. See, even Volgadon can teach an old dog new tricks.

I have plenty of questions and issues on the back burners, my stove is very, very large, and I have found out, over time, I usually find the answer to one of those questions that I can fully embrace. Sometimes it has agreed with what I believed, sometimes it didn't and a change of paradigm is required and two people who have caused me to me to make some changes in my way of believing have been Dr. Dan, Bill Hamblin, and Margaret Barker. Margaret Barker is the one that surprised me the most and she's a Methodist minister and a Brit to boot.

One other thing, I suffer from depression and the times I find most challenging to my testimony is when I'm going through a nasty bout of depression and then I doubt everything. It's during those times that I usually make a decision to not make any major decision, and let me tell you, it's hard to follow that advice.

Edited September 21, 2012 by urroner

[Calm]

It's during those times that I usually make a decision to not make any major decision, and let me tell you, it's hard to follow that advice.

Indeed.

I make it a rule for me never to drive when there is any mental or physical issue going on for me BEFORE I get into a situation where I am wondering if it is okay for me to drive or not. While I am probably overly cautious in that decision (and grateful to a husband who allows me to exercise such caution as I know not everyone has that opportunity), I also know that there is no way the wrong decision that could cost someone's life is going to be made.

I think we should be as cautious about our spiritual lives as we are about our physical life.

[urroner]

Patience is not one of my virtues.

Patience doesn't need to be a virtue.

[Ahab]

...

sockpuppet,

Thanks for sharing. I think I know what you meant, but you might want to rephrase what you said.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Ahab

[Calm]

From my mother-in-law:

Patience is a virtue

Possess it if you can

Seldom in a woman

Never in a man

[urroner]

sockpuppet,

Thanks for sharing. I think I know what you meant, but you might want to rephrase what you said.

Rephrased and thanks.

[Ahab]

Rephrased and thanks.

You're welcome. I thought that's what you meant. I also edited my post to reflect yours.

[Ahab]

From my mother-in-law:

Patience is a virtue

Possess it if you can

Seldom in a woman

Never in a man

Well, I will say I usually run out of mine before my wife does. Yet another area I'm trying to improve on.

[Tacenda]

For a Catholic perspective, check out this helpful site:

Fisheaters: For Protestants

Here is an article on Peter being the first Pope (and deals with the "rock" issue): http://www.fisheaters.com/rock.html

Here is an article on the early Church (the marks of the Church): http://www.fisheaters.com/marksofchurch.html

May God bless you with His Grace as you ponder your questions and search for truth.

Thankyou and God bless you!

[Stargazer]

I think I have a computer virus every time I type a word it's usually missing a letter, very frustrating!!! Thanks I'll fix that, very nice of you.

Clean your keyboard out. That is probably the problem. Do you perhaps eat while at the keyboard? If so, then sometimes things get dropped into there.

[Ares]

The topic title was edited to read "Kingdom with No End or General Apostasy"

Tacenda stay away from incendiary accusations.