Kingdom With No End or General Apostasy

[Tacenda]

Matt 16:18 And I also say unto thee, That thou Peter, and upon this rock I will build this church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Ephesians 3:21 To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 1:32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom would have no end."

1 Kings 19:13-18 God has always been capable of keeping His followers from being wiped out and He promised to do so.

Are any of these scriptures false or in need of further explanations? Thoughts?

Edited September 21, 2012 by Tacenda

[Nevo]

Are any of these scriptures false or in need of further explanations? Thoughts?

Well, this one sounds intriguing:

"Ephesians 3:21 To Him be the gory in the church..."

[Tacenda]

Well, this one sounds intriguing:

"Ephesians 3:21 To Him be the gory in the church..."

I think I have a computer virus every time I type a word it's usually missing a letter, very frustrating!!! Thanks I'll fix that, very nice of you.

[ERayR]

Matt 16:18 And I also say unto thee, That thou Peter, and upon this rock I will build this church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Ephesians 3:21 To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 1:32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom would have no end."

1 Kings 19:13-18 God has always been capable of keeping His followers from being wiped out and He promised to do so.

Are any of these scriptures false or in need of further explanations? Thoughts?

Why the attention grabbing anti title?

[guerreiro9]

Tacenda,

Perhaps you could explain your interpretation of the scriptures in question, you seem to have a specific interpretation in mind, but have not explicitly stated it. I do not see any contradictions in the scriptures you have quoted and what I know of the teachings of Joseph Smith, of course I have my own interpretations in mind.

[Gervin]

Why the attention grabbing anti title?

It's to let Vance know which threads to post on.

Just kidding, Vance Happy Friday, everyone.

[Saints Alive]

Tacenda,

Perhaps you could explain your interpretation of the scriptures in question, you seem to have a specific interpretation in mind, but have not explicitly stated it. I do not see any contradictions in the scriptures you have quoted and what I know of the teachings of Joseph Smith, of course I have my own interpretations in mind.

I agree, a little more explanation is in line...

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

Matt 16:18 And I also say unto thee, That thou Peter, and upon this rock I will build this church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Ephesians 3:21 To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 1:32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom would have no end."

1 Kings 19:13-18 God has always been capable of keeping His followers from being wiped out and He promised to do so.

Are any of these scriptures false or in need of further explanations? Thoughts?

1. The explanation is in the preceding verses Matthew 16:13- 20:When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

¹⁴ So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

¹⁵ He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

¹⁶ Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

¹⁷ Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ¹⁸ And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. ¹⁹ And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed^[d] in heaven.”

²⁰ Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

So it is not Peter whom is the rock of our salvation but revelation from God.

2. We still have the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants. Plus more modern words of Christ through the Prophets.

3. Again the preceding verses give the meaning Ephesians 3:14-21:

¹⁴ For this reason I kneel before the Father, ¹⁵ from whom every family^[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. ¹⁶ I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, ¹⁷ so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, ¹⁸ may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, ¹⁹ and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

²⁰ Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, ²¹ to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

4. I don't know what needs to be addressed here.

5. There are still Jews and Christians. What was missing for many many moons was the authority to act in Gods' name. What that verse does not address.

[MiserereNobis]

Thank God for the Papacy!

[ERayR]

Thank God for the Papacy!

I agree for the faithful believing Catholic. It just doesn't fit for a faithful believing LDS. We are more inclined to say Thank God for the Prophet.

[Tacenda]

Just seeking answers. I'm in a search, do I leave or do I stay? Everything in my world at the time, is staying LDS. It will shatter my world if I leave. When I'm around believing saints everything seems like it'll be okay. But when I listen to shows or sermons on the internet about the Savior and His church never falling away, I'm afraid again and think I have to make a choice. Choose Joseph's version or Jesus' version. I'm not as stemmed in the Gospel as some of you on here. I've never had a powerful witness. My witness has always been in the members and the spirit they exude. On occasion I'll be disappointed though. I just thought some on here would have some thoughts about these scriptures and have a scripture or two about Christ's church needing to be restored and maybe it'll keep me going in the LDS faith a little while longer. BTW some of the OP on here have the anti look also....check it out.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Tacenda

[cinepro]

Without reading the thread, I would have to say that regardless of the subject at hand, if the question in the title must be answered, the answer is "Joseph".

[Tacenda]

Tacenda:

1. The explanation is in the preceding verses Matthew 16:13- 20:When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

¹⁴ So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

¹⁵ He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

¹⁶ Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

¹⁷ Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ¹⁸ And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. ¹⁹ And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed^[d] in heaven.”

²⁰ Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

So it is not Peter whom is the rock of our salvation but revelation from God.

2. We still have the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants. Plus more modern words of Christ through the Prophets.

3. Again the preceding verses give the meaning Ephesians 3:14-21:

¹⁴ For this reason I kneel before the Father, ¹⁵ from whom every family^[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. ¹⁶ I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, ¹⁷ so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, ¹⁸ may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, ¹⁹ and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

²⁰ Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, ²¹ to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

4. I don't know what needs to be addressed here.

5. There are still Jews and Christians. What was missing for many many moons was the authority to act in Gods' name. What that verse does not address.

Thanks, this was what I was looking for, comments about the particular scriptures.

[Vance]

Matt 16:18 And I also say unto thee, That thou Peter, and upon this rock I will build this church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Ephesians 3:21 To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 1:32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom would have no end."

1 Kings 19:13-18 God has always been capable of keeping His followers from being wiped out and He promised to do so.

Are any of these scriptures false or in need of further explanations? Thoughts?

Is the a problem in there?

[ERayR]

Just seeking answers. I'm in a search, do I leave or do I stay? Everything in my world at the time, is staying LDS. It will shatter my world if I leave. When I'm around believing saints everything seems like it'll be okay. But when I listen to shows or sermons on the internet about the Savior and His church never falling away, I'm afraid again and think I have to make a choice. Choose Joseph's version or Jesus' version. I'm not as stemmed in the Gospel as some of you on here. I've never had a powerful witness. My witness has always been in the members and the spirit they exude. On occasion I'll be disappointed though. I just thought some on here would have some thoughts about these scriptures and have a scripture or two about Christ's church needing to be restored and maybe it'll keep me going in the LDS faith a little while longer. BTW some of the OP have the anti look also....check it out.

"Choose Joseph's version or Jesus' version" This is a false dichotomy invented by the anti's. It is based on their interpretation. A better dichotomy would be Joseph's interpretation or the anti-Mormon interpretation. You do not really have Jesus' version but only have someones interpretation.

[Tacenda]

I agree, a little more explanation is in line...

I'm bible illiterate, so not much for interpreting. That's why I come here.

[Tacenda]

"Choose Joseph's version or Jesus' version" This is a false dichotomy invented by the anti's. It is based on their interpretation. A better dichotomy would be Joseph's interpretation or the anti-Mormon interpretation. You do not really have Jesus' version but only have someones interpretation.

Well that's how I heard it from them. But that's how I'll get my answers hopefully too.

[ERayR]

Well that's how I heard it from them. But that's how I'll get my answers hopefully too.

The answers come from personal revelation. That means get serious, read the scriptures, pray about them, listen for an answer and learn to recognize answers when they com. Mostly the still small voice and the feeling of peace.

[Vance]

But when I listen to shows or sermons on the internet about the Savior and His church never falling away, I'm afraid again and think I have to make a choice.

Where in there does it say the Church would never fall away?

[Tacenda]

Where in there does it say the Church would never fall away?

According to the anti's, in those scriptures! Atleast those are the ones they used for proof.

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

I'm no Biblical scholar, but I do know what I believe. The main problem with listening to what those other Preachers say is that they give only part of the story. Now for the rest of the story. Without the Restoration we'd just as limited as those of other religions. Taking what good we can find, but not asking for more.Some in fact claiming there can be no more words from God. We LDS testify that God has spoken in these the latter days. That once again His authority is upon the earth never to be taken away again. I find great comfort in that. As the original Apostles said. Where would we go for thou hath the words of Eternal Life.

Edited September 21, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Bart Burk]

Just seeking answers. I'm in a search, do I leave or do I stay? Everything in my world at the time, is staying LDS. It will shatter my world if I leave. When I'm around believing saints everything seems like it'll be okay. But when I listen to shows or sermons on the internet about the Savior and His church never falling away, I'm afraid again and think I have to make a choice. Choose Joseph's version or Jesus' version. I'm not as stemmed in the Gospel as some of you on here. I've never had a powerful witness. My witness has always been in the members and the spirit they exude. On occasion I'll be disappointed though. I just thought some on here would have some thoughts about these scriptures and have a scripture or two about Christ's church needing to be restored and maybe it'll keep me going in the LDS faith a little while longer. BTW some of the OP on here have the anti look also....check it out.

I hear you. I go to both mass and sacrament meeting on Sunday mornings. And I get good feelings at each of them. Catholics say that God's church would never go away based on some of the scriptures you have used. Any scriptures referring to a falling away have to do with individuals leaving the church, not the entire church going away. And Mormons say just the opposite -- they see a falling away and a need for a restoration. I guess a person just has to make a choice based on the best knowledge and inspiration they can get.

[Glenn101]

Tacenda, It might halp ou if you can remember this one scripture to start out with: 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The "aminstream" Christian churches have their take on those scriptures, although I doubt that any two denominations read it exactly the same way.

Paul was one that prophecied an apostasy:

2 Thessalonians 2:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul seems to allude to a falling away that was in the beginning stages while yet the apostles were alive.

Galatians Chapter 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto nother gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an aangel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Reading those verses coupled with the explanations that others have proffered should provide an ample foundation to support the idea that there was a falling away predicted and that the "gates of hell" is referring to something else.

I don't think that the question is whether Jesus or Joseph were lying, but whtther the interpretation offered by the critics is the correct one. I think not.

Glenn

[Grundelwalken]

Matt 16:18 And I also say unto thee, That thou Peter, and upon this rock I will build this church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Ephesians 3:21 To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Luke 1:32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom would have no end."

1 Kings 19:13-18 God has always been capable of keeping His followers from being wiped out and He promised to do so.

Are any of these scriptures false or in need of further explanations? Thoughts?

Tacenda,

Have them explain these then:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 -- For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 -- That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As the anti's attempt to deny the reality of a falling away, we testify that it did, indeed, happen and is the reason a restoration was necessary.

Unfortunately, trading scripture barbs will not satisfy the heart in any substantial way. The only source of real truth is found in the communion of the Holy Spirit with each individual. You have to stop listening to other people and find out for yourself or you will NEVER have an answer deep enough to turn off your doubts. You confess that you have not had a deep spiritual experience -- maybe it is time to make the effort. God has not limited you in what you may know so ask Him. And don't give up until you have a satisfactory answer, whichever way it goes. Then live what you believe and be happy. MW

OOPS!! Guess Glenn101 beat me to it.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Grundelwalken

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, It might halp ou if you can remember this one scripture to start out with: 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The "aminstream" Christian churches have their take on those scriptures, although I doubt that any two denominations read it exactly the same way.

Paul was one that prophecied an apostasy:

2 Thessalonians 2:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul seems to allude to a falling away that was in the beginning stages while yet the apostles were alive.

Galatians Chapter 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto nother gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an aangel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Reading those verses coupled with the explanations that others have proffered should provide an ample foundation to support the idea that there was a falling away predicted and that the "gates of hell" is referring to something else.

I don't think that the question is whether Jesus or Joseph were lying, but whtther the interpretation offered by the critics is the correct one. I think not.

Glenn

Thanks but I'm afraid I can't change the OP title or maybe I would since I wrote it in haste. Thanks for what you've provided.