Kingdom With No End or General Apostasy

[bluebell]

This is good for LDS to consider. You are converting people from one faith to another by saying their current faith is apostate. You have to accept that religions will fight back against that.

I think, for the most part, we accept that other religions would find that both annoying and something to fight back against.

It's the 'saying untrue and unChristlike things about the LDS religion and people because of some weird idea that anything is justified if the end result is what you want to happen' that most LDS have a problem with.

[MiserereNobis]

But that's not what we do, that's what our enemies say we do.

We simply present a more perfect message and ask them to bring what they have and let us add unto it.

I'm sorry, but this is a bit naive. I understand that is what you think you are doing, but if I were to convert from Catholicism to Mormonism, you wouldn't be "adding" to what I already have, you would be replacing what I already have. That's what conversion is. Sure, I could bring some very basic stuff, like moral precepts, but the day-to-day experience of my faith would be replaced. Different devotions, different doctrines, different sacraments, etc. For example, I have a very strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. As a Mormon, that devotion would have to radically change. You wouldn't be adding to it, you would actually be subtracting from it.

What you are really saying, I think, is that people can bring the things that they have that are in-line with Mormonism and then you will add more to it. I'll say the same to you. Bring what you have that is in-line with Catholicism, and we'll add to it

The "fact" of all others being in some form of apostasy or not having the fullness of the truth is only a fact.

It is only a "fact" to Mormons. You tell us we are apostate (or worse, a member of the whore of Babylon, or a member of the beast spoken of in Revelations). It is the foundation of your church. If we are not apostate, then there is no need for the restoration. Remember that God told Joseph Smith that all of the creeds were an abomination to him. That's a strong word -- abomination.

We don't go around saying others are wicked and evil and you must leave them. We preach the restitution, not damnation.

You don't teach that people need to become Mormons? Then why the missionary work?

Further, if fighting against other christians is a good thing simply because they don't hold the same truths as us, why aren't we doing it? It's because we are taught to contend against no church save it be the church of the devil D&C.

What or who, exactly, is the church of the devil and how does one contend against it?

It's because Christ taught to not contend against any other believer not with you, for they also were his Mark.

Then why don't your missionaries stop proselytizing Christians?

Why is it you all that have all the "ministry's" against everyone you don't like? Insecurity?

The Catholic Church doesn't have ministries against other churches. Don't confuse me with an evangelical.

[MiserereNobis]

It's the 'saying untrue and unChristlike things about the LDS religion and people because of some weird idea that anything is justified if the end result is what you want to happen' that most LDS have a problem with.

I agree with you. The ends do not justify the means. There is no reason to make-up things about the LDS church or to present straw-men.

I would like to say, though, that Christ, when necessary, had no problem saying things that we might label "un-Christ-like." Matthew 23 is full of some very harsh words against a specific religious group, the Pharisees. Here's an excerpt:

15. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves.

33. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?

Notice that Christ specifically references the making of converts, and says that when someone converts to the Pharisees they become a child of hell. Yikes, that's tough language!

Now, since Jesus is God, He knew when and how to employ such language. It is probably best for us to refrain since we are sinful and fallen and should err on the side of caution. However, such language in and of itself is not un-Christ-like, since Christ Himself used it.

[urroner]

This is good for LDS to consider. You are converting people from one faith to another by saying their current faith is apostate. You have to accept that religions will fight back against that.

So, I accept that there will be strong disagreements on who is right and who is wrong. I just disagree with how it's being done too often. The way many religions present themselves is through the same way many politicians do and that is negative ads. They aren't even presenting themselves, they are portraying the other side in the worst possible way.

When I was on my mission, I went to a Catholic rich country, so I really boned up a bunch of anti-Catholic propaganda that I could. Man, I was really going to blow those Catholics out of the water. I could see myself converting thousands. If I could just show them wrong, they would run to the river and beg me to baptize them.

My dad knew what I was doing and said nothing until we were on our way to the mission home is Salt Lake, and then he said, "Lynn, if you want to help the Lord convert people to the Gospel, do you do it by showing them that they are wrong or that your message is right."

I told my dad I couldn't see a difference, if I showed them they were wrong, then they would see that I am right. Case closed, I won.

My dad, who had been either a teacher or principle in high schools for longer than I had been alive, just shook his head and said "Elder Svedin (When he said this, he was really serious.), if you show somebody they are wrong, you just simply destroy their faith. You have shown them that the message you have is right."

"But dad, in the Army, they destroy the person and then build them back up."

"Elder Svedin (I hated it when he said that.), they are not in the Army, they are simple believers of Christ. Christ didn't destroy the faith that others had, even if it was wrong, he showed them the right way, taught them the truth. You need to show them the truth of what Christ is and not what he isn't. That is what you need to focus on."

I agreed with him, but I was still determined to show those foolish Catholics why they are wrong.

During my whole time in the mission home in SLC and in the LTM in Provo, I never heard any instructor and leader say anything about destroying their faith, rather it was about building it up. What did they know, I was determined to convert thousands.

It took several months to learn to speak Spanish and not embarrass myself, and then I decided to put my plan into action. I had my first Bible bash. I was going to come out looking good.

I came out a fool, the preacher ate my lunch and then used me for a mop. After finding my head on a platter and leaving, I turned to my senior companion and berated him for not helping me show that foolish preacher, he wasn't even Catholic, that he was wrong. I asked him if there were thirty silvers in his pocket.

He laughed and told me that he was pleased this had happened. He said that by attempting to destroy the other person's faith, I just made that person dig in a little bit harder. I had used anger and pride instead of love. He looked at me and said "Elder Svedin (Did my dad put him up to this?), you goal should be to show the other person that what you believe is right and not what they believe is wrong. Did you ever feel the spirit of the Lord in that Bible bash?"

I hadn't and I only did a Bible bash one more time during the mission and even during that time, I didn't feel the Spirit, in fact, in prayers that night I asked the Lord to forgive me for belittling another's faith and I haven't done it since.

Point is, yes, I expect others to get upset with what our missionaries are doing, I would, but being upset doesn't equate to belittling and trying to destroy those whom I oppose and using cheap, denigrating tactics.

[MiserereNobis]

So, I accept that there will be strong disagreements on who is right and who is wrong. I just disagree with how it's being done too often. The way many religions present themselves is through the same way many politicians do and that is negative ads. They aren't even presenting themselves, they are portraying the other side in the worst possible way.

When I was on my mission, I went to a Catholic rich country, so I really boned up a bunch of anti-Catholic propaganda that I could. Man, I was really going to blow those Catholics out of the water. I could see myself converting thousands. If I could just show them wrong, they would run to the river and beg me to baptize them.

My dad knew what I was doing and said nothing until we were on our way to the mission home is Salt Lake, and then he said, "Lynn, if you want to help the Lord convert people to the Gospel, do you do it by showing them that they are wrong or that your message is right."

I told my dad I couldn't see a difference, if I showed them they were wrong, then they would see that I am right. Case closed, I won.

My dad, who had been either a teacher or principle in high schools for longer than I had been alive, just shook his head and said "Elder Svedin (When he said this, he was really serious.), if you show somebody they are wrong, you just simply destroy their faith. You have shown them that the message you have is right."

"But dad, in the Army, they destroy the person and then build them back up."

"Elder Svedin (I hated it when he said that.), they are not in the Army, they are simple believers of Christ. Christ didn't destroy the faith that others had, even if it was wrong, he showed them the right way, taught them the truth. You need to show them the truth of what Christ is and not what he isn't. That is what you need to focus on."

I agreed with him, but I was still determined to show those foolish Catholics why they are wrong.

During my whole time in the mission home in SLC and in the LTM in Provo, I never heard any instructor and leader say anything about destroying their faith, rather it was about building it up. What did they know, I was determined to convert thousands.

It took several months to learn to speak Spanish and not embarrass myself, and then I decided to put my plan into action. I had my first Bible bash. I was going to come out looking good.

I came out a fool, the preacher ate my lunch and then used me for a mop. After finding my head on a platter and leaving, I turned to my senior companion and berated him for not helping me show that foolish preacher, he wasn't even Catholic, that he was wrong. I asked him if there were thirty silvers in his pocket.

He laughed and told me that he was pleased this had happened. He said that by attempting to destroy the other person's faith, I just made that person dig in a little bit harder. I had used anger and pride instead of love. He looked at me and said "Elder Svedin (Did my dad put him up to this?), you goal should be to show the other person that what you believe is right and not what they believe is wrong. Did you ever feel the spirit of the Lord in that Bible bash?"

I hadn't and I only did a Bible bash one more time during the mission and even during that time, I didn't feel the Spirit, in fact, in prayers that night I asked the Lord to forgive me for belittling another's faith and I haven't done it since.

Point is, yes, I expect others to get upset with what our missionaries are doing, I would, but being upset doesn't equate to belittling and trying to destroy those whom I oppose and using cheap, denigrating tactics.

Thank you for taking the time to share your story. I agree that using cheap, denigrating tactics and negative political ads, as it were, is a terrible way to proselytize.

[bluebell]

Now, since Jesus is God, He knew when and how to employ such language. It is probably best for us to refrain since we are sinful and fallen and should err on the side of caution. However, such language in and of itself is not un-Christ-like, since Christ Himself used it.

I have never stated that harsh language is unChrist-like.

However seldom do people speak harshly who don't resort to it for sinful reasons. They want to be right, or want to hurt the other person's feelings, want to look good in someone else's eyes, or are angry because the discussion had become contentious and they have lost the Spirit, etc.

When it comes to religion, i hardly ever hear anyone use harsh language where pride is not the chief motivation (though often unrealized, of course) for the usage. To me, it's not so much the language that get's us in trouble, but our reasons for using.

[Tacenda]

I think, for the most part, we accept that other religions would find that both annoying and something to fight back against.

It's the 'saying untrue and unChristlike things about the LDS religion and people because of some weird idea that anything is justified if the end result is what you want to happen' that most LDS have a problem with.

Well to them it's the same thing. They know what Joseph Smith said about all the other denominations being corrupt.

[bluebell]

Well to them it's the same thing. They know what Joseph Smith said about all the other denominations being corrupt.

Where did he say that?

[Tacenda]

Where did he say that?

The first vision story is where he stated that.

[bluebell]

The first vision story is where he stated that.

What exactly does he say about denominations being corrupt?

[Tacenda]

What exactly does he say about denominations being corrupt?

A portion of the "First Vision" that I found on LDS.org, Joseph said this...."I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me......."

[MiserereNobis]

A portion of the "First Vision" that I found on LDS.org, Joseph said this...."I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me......."

Yup. Looks like Joseph Smith threw the first punch

[williamsmith]

I'm sorry, but this is a bit naive. I understand that is what you think you are doing, but if I were to convert from Catholicism to Mormonism, you wouldn't be "adding" to what I already have, you would be replacing what I already have. That's what conversion is. Sure, I could bring some very basic stuff, like moral precepts, but the day-to-day experience of my faith would be replaced. Different devotions, different doctrines, different sacraments, etc. For example, I have a very strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. As a Mormon, that devotion would have to radically change. You wouldn't be adding to it, you would actually be subtracting from it.

If you actually knew both Mormonism and Catholicism you would know that with yes some minor and significant differences they are almost exactly alike.

Informed Catholics and Mormons both know that only one of us can be true, and it's not surprising since we both claim the same source. BTW, I'm actually a convert from Catholicism as well as some other faiths I've attended, and Mormonism didn't "replace" anything. Yes, it corrected some things that the various faiths taught or didn't teach, but Mormonism was a perfect match for the Bible.

What you are really saying, I think, is that people can bring the things that they have that are in-line with Mormonism and then you will add more to it. I'll say the same to you. Bring what you have that is in-line with Catholicism, and we'll add to it

There is much more than simply "moral values" that someone of the "Christian" tradition brings to their new faith. We are not as different as you believe, only in the misrepresentations and lies of us do people think we are so different.

It is only a "fact" to Mormons. You tell us we are apostate (or worse, a member of the whore of Babylon, or a member of the beast spoken of in Revelations). It is the foundation of your church. If we are not apostate, then there is no need for the restoration. Remember that God told Joseph Smith that all of the creeds were an abomination to him. That's a strong word -- abomination.

Yes, it is a fact to us, just like any belief is to you. That is far different from active bigotry and misrepresentation that our enemies do toward us. Also, you repeat again that we tell you you are "apostate". We almost never use that word. Clearly you are getting your information about us from our enemy's quote mining of history as if such describes us. You ever said something negative or Mormons or anyone else? Would it be accurate of you if an enemy of you then took that quote and paraded it around as if it was the "truth" about you? No it wouldn't.

Further evidence that you get your views from our enemies is your "whore of babylon" quote. Pretty much only two men in the entire 180 LDS history Pratt and McConkie had that belief, and then you're going to paint us with that? Even from the beginning of the Church Pratt was sanctioned for that view and McConkie the Church had him remove that view from his "Mormon Doctrine" 2nd edition. The Catholic Church has NEVER been the whore of babylon in Mormonism. Yes, in other religions, but not in Mormonism.

Yes, the creeds are abominable for they "exclude" and they were not given by revelation from God. The entire foundation of most Christian religions are founded on some Trinity creed that they define and exclude by.

If you were Christ do you really think he would like them?

Yes, abomination is a strong word, but two things.

1. It was Christ saying it.

2. It is a religious belief. A religious belief is far different from a direct attack, misrepresentation and lying about others like our enemy's do toward us.

You don't teach that people need to become Mormons? Then why the missionary work?

Of course we do, that wasn't the point. We teach people the Gospel, we don't teach people to hate other Christians or believers or non believers. Our enemy's however do.

What or who, exactly, is the church of the devil and how does one contend against it?

Evil.... and those who promote it, aka fanatical Islam, or any other evil group or person.

Then why don't your missionaries stop proselytizing Christians?

Sharing the "Good Word" is not "contending" against other faiths.

God said to defend, protect (contend for), and proclaim the Faith. He didn't say contend against faith.

Mormons defend, protect, and proclaim. We don't attack other faiths as God commanded.

The Catholic Church doesn't have ministries against other churches. Don't confuse me with an evangelical.

Actually you would be surprised. I would recommend you look around online, you will find many Catholics (primarily former Evangelicals, though also many Catholics) having their "ministry's", classes etc. contending against Mormonism. Even the Catholic Answers website which is the Catholic Church lies and misrepresents LDS Theology, even having a good seal of approval from a Catholic leader actually saying the articles are "free from any moral etc. errors". Do you see any Mormon website dedicated to attacking another religion, especially a Church sanctioned one? Nope. Ever looked at our "Religions of the World" manual taught in LDS seminary's? You will see nothing in that manual attacking or misrepresenting any religion, it does a basic summary of beliefs just as any respectable college class or scholastic book might. Also, look on the Catholic Forums as well, you will see much "Evangelical" behavior by Catholics. Just an FYI.

[urroner]

Yup. Looks like Joseph Smith threw the first punch

Technically, it was those who brought corruption into the gospel, intentionally or not, who threw the first punch.

[williamsmith]

Yup. Looks like Joseph Smith threw the first punch

First, it was Christ throwing the punch, so I would be really careful. You may not believe it, but think for a moment who you are condemning.

Second, a statement of belief is not a "punch". It may be negative, but it is passive.

In contrast anti-mormon fruits are in fact actual punches.

Would you consider historical anti-christian hate and fruits against Christianity as "justified" simply because Christ was critical of some Jews and false doctrines and their corrupt teachers as stated in the New Testament? I don't think so, so spare us the "first punch" metaphor.

[urroner]

First, it was Christ throwing the punch, so I would be really careful. You may not believe it, but think for a moment who you are condemning.

Second, a statement of belief is not a "punch". It may be negative, but it is passive.

In contrast anti-mormon fruits are in fact actual punches.

Would you consider historical anti-christian hate and fruits against Christianity as "justified" simply because Christ was critical of some Jews and false doctrines and their corrupt teachers as stated in the New Testament? I don't think so, so spare us the "first punch" metaphor.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but WS, I don't think MN was being confrontational here. Maybe he was, but I really don't think so. He, like many of his RCC predecessors on this board have been nothing but polite and willing discuss many things in very nice ways. David Waltz and Rory were a couple of them that i remember off the top of my head. Both of those guys could have killed me or left me severely mangled and maimed in any discussion. Instead they played with me like a cat does to a mouse, but they never hurt me in any way and our discussions only helped to make me a better man.

I think MN was just giving those like me a loving dope slap on the back of the head. Nothing wrong with that.

[bluebell]

Yup. Looks like Joseph Smith threw the first punch

Considering the things the Catholics were saying to/about the Protestants, the things the Protestants were saying to/about the Catholics, and the things the Protestants were saying to/about each other, I think the first punch was thrown long before JS was even born.

[bluebell]

A portion of the "First Vision" that I found on LDS.org, Joseph said this...."I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me......."

Yes, I know what he said.

But if you are going to quote JS, then do so correctly.

More to the point though, my words weren't meant to imply that a person can't believe anothers religious beliefs are wrong. A Catholic can't be a Catholic without believing that uniquely Protestants beliefs are corrupt and an abomination in God's sight. The same goes for a Protestant on uniquely Catholic beliefs. The same for LDS and all the rest of the hundreds of different religions. Such has been going on, legitimately, since the beginning of time. It's no evil thing to think someone else is wrong.

Believing that someone is wrong, or misled is not the same thing as lying about their beliefs or being unChrist-like in your relationship and speech with them. It's quite possible to do one without doing the other. We have quite a few non-LDS on this board that prove every day how very possible it is, and a few LDS that do likewise.

[urroner]

When Joseph Smith said that the other churches were wrong and the professors corrupt, was he saying that they were evil and going to hell. I never heard him say that. Okay, I'm not that old, but I've don't ever recall reading anything where he said that. Corrupt does not equate to evil and it also doesn't mean totally corrupted and without any value as some people try so hard to make it mean. They were corrupt because they taught some things which were wrong and they didn't have the proper authority to do so.

It's like Bluebell said, would a good Catholic say, even to themselves that there are things taught in a Protestant church which are corrupt and vise versa? Is it wrong for that Catholic or that Protestant to believe that?

[Tacenda]

When Joseph Smith said that the other churches were wrong and the professors corrupt, was he saying that they were evil and going to hell. I never heard him say that. Okay, I'm not that old, but I've don't ever recall reading anything where he said that. Corrupt does not equate to evil and it also doesn't mean totally corrupted and without any value as some people try so hard to make it mean. They were corrupt because they taught some things which were wrong and they didn't have the proper authority to do so.

It's like Bluebell said, would a good Catholic say, even to themselves that there are things taught in a Protestant church which are corrupt and vise versa? Is it wrong for that Catholic or that Protestant to believe that?

Yet the EV's use the comment by JS as a reason they are fighting back. One even said that if Romney makes president, they better be prepared to lose alot in their congregations to the LDS church.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Tacenda

[volgadon]

Considering the things the Catholics were saying to/about the Protestants, the things the Protestants were saying to/about the Catholics, and the things the Protestants were saying to/about each other, I think the first punch was thrown long before JS was even born.

879...

[Vance]

Yet the EV's use the comment by JS as a reason they are fighting back.

And most of the time, they, like you, misrepresent what was ACTUALLY said.

One even said that if Romney makes president, they better be prepared to lose alot in their congregations to the LDS church.

So, they are worried that in an open, HONEST, and free market of religious ideas they will lose people to the Mormons.

Sorry, but I don't see a problem with that.

[Saints Alive]

So, they are worried that in an open, HONEST, and free market of religious ideas they will lose people to the Mormons.

Sorry, but I don't see a problem with that.

Its not for us LDS but when your salary and livelihood is, at least in part, based on congregation size and attendance it becomes a BIG Problem.

[Vance]

Its not for us LDS but when your salary and livelihood is, at least in part, based on congregation size and attendance it becomes a BIG Problem.

Yup, those with the inferior product will certainly lose money.

[altersteve]

A portion of the "First Vision" that I found on LDS.org, Joseph said this...."I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me......."

But he didn't say other denominations are corrupt.