Another Thread On Faith Crisis....

[wenglund]

I have had significant test of faith (which are to be expected as a part of growth in faith), though not a faith crisis.

I suspect that there are several reasons I didn't experience a faith crisis:

1. I always kept in mind what the Church/gospel is really all about--i.e. to bring us to Christ and enable us to become like him, and tried to live it to its fullest.

2. As a pragmatist, I tried to keep in mind how the gospel is practically designed to work--i.e. trust in God more than man via Moroni 10 and Alma 32.

3. I also tried to keep things in proper perspective (the pluses and minuses).

4. I kept reminding myself that with the expected challenges to my faith, it was I who was being being tested, and not God or the gospel. In other words, the tests weren't to determine whether God or the Church/gospel measured up, but whether I measured up to God and the Church/gospel.

From my many decades of experience interacting with former believers, whether they realize it or not, people tend to lose faith in God and the restored gospel because they failed in one or more of those four ways.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

Tacenda:

I don't know what church you're attending. We start and stop ALL our meetings with prayers to God through his Son Jesus.

Every Sacrament Meeting is a remembrance of the Atonement of Christ.

Every Sunday School lesson in how we can better serve God, and Christ.

Every Priesthood Meeting is how others served Christ as leaders in His Church, and how we can do likewise.

General Conference, Stake Conference.

Family Home Evening. How to be more like Christ with our families.

Our own personal Scripture study.

Seminaries, Institute classes. etc. ,etc., etc..

If you're not getting Jesus in our meetings then you're either not attending, or not paying attention.

I believe you're exactly right on the bolded portion. I believe in a round about way for the rest, but verse by verse of the bible of Jesus, studying for months on a few books of the bible, might get members more in tune with knowing Him.

I have been listening to ex mormons that have gone onto other faiths and say there is a huge difference in the way of worshipping. There is a sight called exmormonfiles.com it's with a former bishop that grew up in my father's home town. He interviews indivduals that have left the church and have that relationship with Christ that I spoke of. And no Kevin I don't have one and know it's my fault and need to repent.

I was just wondering if the ex mormons that are athiest didn't have a relationship very strongly with God/Jesus and that's the problem.

[KevinG]

I was just wondering if the ex mormons that are athiest didn't have a relationship very strongly with God/Jesus and that's the problem.

As I said earlier I think the problem is opposite of what you theorized. Its not because we don't teach of Christ it is precisely beacuse our doctrines are so intimately tied with a testimony of Christ that to distance one's self from our church is to distance one's self from Christ. That is my experience.

Regarding study of the Bible. We are encouraged to read our scriptures and pray to God each not in the name of Jesus Christ. One out of every four years in Sunday School and Seminary is devoted to Study of the new Testament and one out of four devoted to study of the Old Testament. LDS are ranked high on the list of those with knowledge of Christianity.

[Walden]

Why is it so prevelant for former members of the LDS church to lose their testimony of God too? My feeling is that we aren't getting enough of Jesus in our meetings at church. Studying in depth, verse by verse in the bible, of Jesus. No praising his name outwardly. We need that in the LDS church. It's more the gospel of Joseph Smith sometimes, that I'm getting. So why lose the testimony of God? I don't think we are quite living up to the notion of having a relationship with HIM. Just temples, prophets and so forth. How much of our doctrine is in the bible? It just seems that we rely too much on some manmade concepts, that possibly could have been spoken of as prophets for the Lord but than have been changed through the years, so that leads us to nowhere on what to believe and what not to believe.

In my experience, there is a fairly large difference between the way the mormon's worship and the way that, say, lutherans, epsicopalians, EVs or presbyterians worship. Their services are much more bible-centric and much more focused on christ. Both before and after I left the LDS faith, I attended and studied the aformentioned churches, and I graduated from a mainstream christian university, where religion classes were mandatory, so my exposure to "mainstream" christianity has been fairly thorough. While I enjoyed portions and teachings from each faith, none of them were able to convince me that god is real, and thus my atheism.

I think that the prevalance of former LDS members who become atheists has somewhat to do with the church's teaching that the LDS church is the one, true church on earth. Members are taught this from a youing age and it is reinforced throughout their time in the church. When the curtain is pulled back and the wizard is exposed and the whole illusion crashes down around you, it's hard to rebuild the former faith that one had, particulalry using the principles of another religion; thus, one arrives to the conclusion that if the "one, true" church on earth is not true, than religion in general is untrue, and god is untrue.

Of course it is much more complex than this, but that is the quick, simplified answer.

[Tacenda]

In my experience, there is a fairly large difference between the way the mormon's worship and the way that, say, lutherans, epsicopalians, EVs or presbyterians worship. Their services are much more bible-centric and much more focused on christ. Both before and after I left the LDS faith, I attended and studied the aformentioned churches, and I graduated from a mainstream christian university, where religion classes were mandatory, so my exposure to "mainstream" christianity has been fairly thorough. While I enjoyed portions and teachings from each faith, none of them were able to convince me that god is real, and thus my atheism.

I think that the prevalance of former LDS members who become atheists has somewhat to do with the church's teaching that the LDS church is the one, true church on earth. Members are taught this from a youing age and it is reinforced throughout their time in the church. When the curtain is pulled back and the wizard is exposed and the whole illusion crashes down around you, it's hard to rebuild the former faith that one had, particulalry using the principles of another religion; thus, one arrives to the conclusion that if the "one, true" church on earth is not true, than religion in general is untrue, and god is untrue.

Of course it is much more complex than this, but that is the quick, simplified answer.

I understand what you're saying. Sometimes I think that if I keep pulling the curtain away and see everything I might lose my testimony of Christ, so don't want to go there. Just like members of the church who don't want to see everything in church history that might hurt their testimony. But I still think I'd hold onto a notion of a creator of some sort. How did the cells of animals become in existence? I believe in evolution but it had to begin somewhere. I really haven't studied the "big bang theory" so maybe it covers that.

Thanks for your response I was really hoping to get feedback from you.

[KevinG]

Sometimes I think that if I keep pulling the curtain away and see everything I might lose my testimony of Christ, so don't want to go there.

This is a serious question. With all of the quotes from anti-Mormon and critical of Mormon websites you share what is left where you are afraid to go? The best way to pull the curtain on God is to talk directly with Him.

[HiJolly]

1.) If you haven't had a major crisis of faith, what do you think has been your key to avoiding one?

- Did the issues never bother you or were you innoculated early on?

- If you were innoculated, who by (Bishop, Parents, Sunday School Teacher) ?

I have had many minor crises and one "major" - but how does one define these relative terms?

The way I found out what the issues are, was an 'anti' flyer on my windshield RE: BY and Adam-God. Then, I took the offensive and engaged in online discussions about Church History and other topics of interest. Most of which had to do with history.

My first realization was that I knew almost nothing; the second was that I needed to shut up and learn. The only time I would speak out was on really stupid stuff like how Mormons worship Joseph Smith or Moroni (gold!). Learning the History I was never taught was an adventure, a thrill. And these were my 'minor' crises.

For me, I was startled to find many things that the spirit told me were true but the Church taught/demonstrated were not true, or dangerous, or not-to-be-talked-about. And conversely, some things the Church taught were not true but the spirit told me were true. (in using the word "Church", I mean both official talks and publications, and also what active members of the Church had to say -- not the scriptures.) I learned not to accept what other people said, on both sides of the fence. I learned to study it out for myself.

So all this was interesting, especially considering that the Holy Ghost was helping me sort out truth/error all through this time. I would have impressions and 'guidance' for most issues. Only a few (10 or less) actually had to go on the shelf. (Adam-god, resurrection, organic evolution, literal flood, age of the earth, church & priesthood, Joseph's character, etc.) Today I only have one or two things on the shelf, but they're humongous.

All through this, the key to my not becoming disaffected was that God had witnessed to me in power and glory that the Church was "all true". We've discussed this here before.

2.) If you have had a major faith crisis - what brought you through to the other side? (those still believing)

- what was the major factor - was it a mentor? , your studying? a spiritual experience?

- How long did the crisis last - weeks, months, years?

I am still believing. With major modifications to what I used to believe. The major factor for me is the epistemology of it all. Psychology plays a primary, gigantic role in all religion. How should myth and symbolism affect me? How should I feel about a pragmatic God? What is truth? What is faith? What is God? How exactly does the Holy Ghost work? I've been working through these and other questions for over 25 years, now.

The Holy Ghost kept working away at me. It (he?) taught and proved and re-inforced and denied and ... well. And eventually drove me to honestly consider my belief in the Church. Forced me to seek 'truth' in and beyond earthly things like the Church. Do I believe what I'm taught, or do I believe the revelations I've been given? Do those two things agree? When do they agree, when don't they agree? What are the characteristics and feelings of each phenomenon? Am I deluded, or not?

I found myself in anguish and torment, for I could see that the HG would not leave me alone in peace, as long as I demanded the 'truth'. And he forced me to give up my need for the Church to be 'true'. I had to consciously give up the Church. I'm not going to describe this experience further, except to say that after giving up everything I'd ever believed in, the Spirit accepted my sacrifice and then inexplicably turned around and allowed me to choose to believe in the Church, if that was what I wanted. I mean, not just mentally, consciously and intellectually, but deeper than that. All the way.

This 'crisis' seemingly lasted only a moment, but it was somehow suspended from temporal reckoning nonetheless. Like many other experiences I have had with God, it was 'different', perhaps mystical. I love the Church, and so I *chose* in that sacred space to believe in it. Everything is different, though. Now I can see things so much more clearly than I had ever been able to do before. I think my psychological needs are no longer clouding the issues. Or something like that. I'm still contemplating the whole thing.

3.) If you had a major faith crisis and no longer believe, could you ever be convinced that the church is a "true and living" church with God's authority?

- Or are you totally shut out aginst that conclusion minus a angelic visit?

;-) Amen.

HiJolly

[DBMormon]

I believe you're exactly right on the bolded portion. I believe in a round about way for the rest, but verse by verse of the bible of Jesus, studying for months on a few books of the bible, might get members more in tune with knowing Him.

I have been listening to ex mormons that have gone onto other faiths and say there is a huge difference in the way of worshipping. There is a sight called exmormonfiles.com it's with a former bishop that grew up in my father's home town. He interviews indivduals that have left the church and have that relationship with Christ that I spoke of. And no Kevin I don't have one and know it's my fault and need to repent.

I was just wondering if the ex mormons that are athiest didn't have a relationship very strongly with God/Jesus and that's the problem.

Tacenda, In our ward there are 100 references or more of Christ to every reference to Bro. Joseph. The one exception might be Testimony meeting which might be 5 to 1

very little about Joseph in sacrament talks - focus is on Christ.

If you Ward is too focused on Joseph, suggest to your Bishop a desire to hear more of Christ.

Edited September 14, 2012 by DBMormon

[Ahab]

Tacenda, I n our ward there are 100 references or more of Christ to every reference to Bro. Joseph. The one exception might be Testimony meeting which might be 5 to 1

Jesus spoke through Joseph, though, so you can also count that as Jesus... just like Peter spoke for Jesus, James spoke for Jesus, John spoke for Jesus, Paul spoke for Jesus, etc, etc, etc...

[rongo]

For what it's worth, DB, I think that people who want the Church to be true will ultimately weather their faith crises, and people who (for whatever reason ---- there are lots of different reasons, not all or even many of which have to do with lifestyle) don't want the Church's truth claims to be true, will ultimately succumb.

I was terrified when I was about 14 that the Church might not be true. What if we are well-meaning, but simply wrong? This spurred me to search out for myself. I had read the Book of Mormon a couple of times before 7th grade, and read it again and again during my high school years. I also read the PoGP, D&C, and NT before my mission, and the Old Testament on my mission (I read the standard works several times on my mission). The Holy Ghost, drop by drop, "as the dews of Carmel distilling" through this time and beyond, is the basis of my testimony. I've always been a voracious reader and stem from avid and sophisticated apologists on both sides, so anti-Mormon arguments played no role. For me, it was more basic: what if none of it happened?

I was put with a first-time senior companion after two months on my mission, and he was almost at the end of his mission. The transfer was made by my mission president simply putting his hands on my shoulders, looking down at me, and saying, "Elder ______'s testimony is in tatters. Do what you can to help him. This will be really hard. Here's your train ticket for tomorrow." It was the most difficult time of my life thus far, but a really good experience. He was 26, a native German from Berlin, a reformed and repentant skinhead who had served jail time for beating up Turks, and a college graduate in economics. He was a brilliant orator and really, really good with people. He spoke English fluently, but refused to speak any with me (other than to have me teach him some Beatles songs whose lyrics he was unsure about). My language soared during that time, but mostly because he absolutely pinned me to the wall to explain what I meant when I said "President Hunter is a prophet." What does that mean? In what way? How do I know? He wasn't a jerk about it or trying to tear me down ----- he was genuinely terrified and was picking my brain and limited experience for help. He grew to really respect me and my opinions. He also compensated by being an extremely hard worker. In the two months I was with him, we only were able to knock doors on two or three streets because we got let in *a lot* and taught a lot (his personality and speaking skills were really good). We taught the best convert from my mission, and he baptized her and I confirmed her. I ran into him near the end of my mission at General Conference in Hamburg (a really big deal abroad), and his countenance glowed and he was doing really well.

My former companion is just one example, but others like him lead me to believe that people with crippling doubt or grave concerns who want the Church to be true will move heaven and earth for it to be true, and will end up fine. Those who do make a shipwreck of their faith didn't actually want it to be true, deep down. This infuriates people I have talked to who insist that they wanted it all to be true with everything they had, but this isn't my experience.

[Ahab]

rongo,

Well said. +1 and + more if I could.

To all that you said, I'd just like to point out that all of this is a test of our faith in God, and I think it helps to realize we knew him before we came here, and not only that, but we were right there with him when he did a lot of what he did and we learned at least something from him.

I think what we learned is still with us, in some sense, and all we need to do is remember what is beyond the veil.

[ERayR]

Your questions are as follows

1.) If you haven't had a major crisis of faith, what do you think has been your key to avoiding one?

- Did the issues never bother you or were you innoculated early on?

- If you were innoculated, who by (Bishop, Parents, Sunday School Teacher) ?

2.) If you have had a major faith crisis - what brought you through to the other side? (those still believing)

- what was the major factor - was it a mentor? , your studying? a spiritual experience?

- How long did the crisis last - weeks, months, years?

3.) If you had a major faith crisis and no longer believe, could you ever be convinced that the church is a "true and living" church with God's authority?

- Or are you totally shut out aginst that conclusion minus a angelic visit?

My Answers

I have had what you call a faith crisis. I questioned whether there was an existence beyond this life. Once I had gotten an answer to that I then got an answer that the COJCOLDS was what it claimed then all the rest was irrelevant. When the question of JS qualification to be a vessel of God arose in my mind it was answered that of course he was not qualified but God qualified him so all the rest was irrelevant.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, In our ward there are 100 references or more of Christ to every reference to Bro. Joseph. The one exception might be Testimony meeting which might be 5 to 1

very little about Joseph in sacrament talks - focus is on Christ.

If you Ward is too focused on Joseph, suggest to your Bishop a desire to hear more of Christ.

Will do!! I'm sure you give topics out that have to do with the Savior quite a bit. Just my observations!

[DBMormon]

Will do!! I'm sure you give topics out that have to do with the Savior quite a bit. Just my observations!

Our Bishopric decides a Ward theme long in advance of the new year. We then have monthly themes and all sacrament talks that month revolve around the theme. It works well.

But each Bishopric has a right to receive inspiration for their own ward and my ward's plan is not for every ward

[ERayR]

I was just wondering if the ex mormons that are athiest didn't have a relationship very strongly with God/Jesus and that's the problem.

Not being privy to their innermost secret thoughts my best guess would be that the problem was in not cultivating and listening to the personal revelation that we are all admonished to get.

[Ahab]

Not being privy to their innermost secret thoughts my best guess would be that the problem was in not cultivating and listening to the personal revelation that we are all admonished to get.

That's my best guess, too. Another option is that they could have drawn close to God and then decided they no longer wanted to follow him, perhaps becoming a son of perdition.

It is possible for those who know God to fall away from him, too, rather than the only option being that they never knew him.

[KevinG]

If you Ward is too focused on Joseph, suggest to your Bishop a desire to hear more of Christ.

A foolproof way of getting a speaking assignment i would think!

[Calm]

As I said earlier I think the problem is opposite of what you theorized. Its not because we don't teach of Christ it is precisely beacuse our doctrines are so intimately tied with a testimony of Christ that to distance one's self from our church is to distance one's self from Christ. That is my experience.

Regarding study of the Bible. We are encouraged to read our scriptures and pray to God each not in the name of Jesus Christ. One out of every four years in Sunday School and Seminary is devoted to Study of the new Testament and one out of four devoted to study of the Old Testament. LDS are ranked high on the list of those with knowledge of Christianity.

I don't know about other churches, but I believe our faith concentrates a great deal on helping us become Christlike so that we cannot only learn about Christ, but actually encounter him personally because we have prepared ourselves spiritually to be open to his Spirit.

[Calm]

Our Bishopric decides a Ward theme long in advance of the new year. We then have monthly themes and all sacrament talks that month revolve around the theme. It works well.

But each Bishopric has a right to receive inspiration for their own ward and my ward's plan is not for every ward

Our ward does it that way as well. We have a magnet each year up on the refrig with the theme on it. Sometimes a little pin (like a tie pin) is given out with a logo on it.

[sunstoned]

In my experience, there is a fairly large difference between the way the mormon's worship and the way that, say, lutherans, epsicopalians, EVs or presbyterians worship. Their services are much more bible-centric and much more focused on christ. Both before and after I left the LDS faith, I attended and studied the aformentioned churches, and I graduated from a mainstream christian university, where religion classes were mandatory, so my exposure to "mainstream" christianity has been fairly thorough. While I enjoyed portions and teachings from each faith, none of them were able to convince me that god is real, and thus my atheism.

I think that the prevalance of former LDS members who become atheists has somewhat to do with the church's teaching that the LDS church is the one, true church on earth. Members are taught this from a youing age and it is reinforced throughout their time in the church. When the curtain is pulled back and the wizard is exposed and the whole illusion crashes down around you, it's hard to rebuild the former faith that one had, particulalry using the principles of another religion; thus, one arrives to the conclusion that if the "one, true" church on earth is not true, than religion in general is untrue, and god is untrue.

Of course it is much more complex than this, but that is the quick, simplified answer.

I agree with your comments. I do feel that the LDS church does teach Christ and him crucified, but we teach a lot of other stuff as well that to some might clutter the message. I also feel that we (LDS) tend to put too much emphasis on our leaders. Some members hang on their every word. This personality worship sometimes gets out of hand in my opinion. As example of this is televised birthday parties for the prophet.

[Libs]

I agree with that, sunstoned. There are a lot of, what you might call, distractions in the LDS Church. So many personalities to focus on...like the yearly study of the prophets one by one in RS and PH. I think it is fairly easy to lose sight of Christ.

3.) If you had a major faith crisis and no longer believe, could you ever be convinced that the church is a "true and living" church with God's authority?

- Or are you totally shut out aginst that conclusion minus a angelic visit?

I had a major-major faith crisis about four years ago, now...but, I have never been completely convinced that the church is not true. So, yes, I could still be convinced. But, as some have already expressed, there are certain things that the church "teaches" that I am fairly certain I could not ever be convinced are true.

I liked Hi Jolly's post and usually really relate to what he has to say about the church. I rely heavily on the Spirit (Holy Ghost) for guidance and revelation. That is who/what brought me into the church, to begin with, and if I ever return, that is who will bring me back.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Libs

[DBMormon]

I agree with that, sunstoned. There are a lot of, what you might call, distractions in the LDS Church. So many personalities to focus on...like the yearly study of the prophets one by one in RS and PH. I think it is fairly easy to lose sight of Christ.

I had a major-major faith crisis about four years ago, now...but, I have never been completely convinced that the church is not true. So, yes, I could still be convinced. But, as some have already expressed, there are certain things that the church "teaches" that I am fairly certain I could not ever be convinced are true.

I liked Hi Jolly's post and usually really relate to what he has to say about the church. I rely heavily on the Spirit (Holy Ghost) for guidance and revelation. That is who/what brought me into the church, to begin with, and if I ever return, that is who will bring me back.

Don't you get the impression that the church of the new testament also didn't have all the truth yet either? That while led by God, it still had many things yet to be revealed to it? I do. It seems there was a range of held beliefs and doctrine. That they were figuring it out as they go.

[why me]

Many members have had a crisis of faith. But then again what is a faith crisis? Many at one time in their lives experience doubt. I think that this is natural. With faith comes doubt. It is unavoidable. I also have come to understand that very few lds have strong testimonies until they have been tried and tested. We see this when members read something that may confuse them or something that they didn't know that is interpreted as a negative as a member.

I think that the point would be to go back to the basics. The first vision, the 11 witnesses and their stories and testimony and the translation process. And the accomplishments of Joseph Smith during a brief time period between 1830-1844.

[why me]

I agree with that, sunstoned. There are a lot of, what you might call, distractions in the LDS Church. So many personalities to focus on...like the yearly study of the prophets one by one in RS and PH. I think it is fairly easy to lose sight of Christ.

And yet, if one looks at the manual for RS and PH one sees that the prophets were teaching how we can live the word of christ and come closer to him by doing so. In other words it is not about losing site of christ but allowing christ to enter into our daily life, such is the manuals about the teachings of past prophets.

[why me]

but we teach a lot of other stuff as well that to some might clutter the message.

like what? What other stuff is taught? Now of course for the lds the commandments are taught. And yes, we here a lot about chasity and tithing. But we also hear about faith, prayer, the creation of the world etc. The lds tend to get a well rounded lesson on god, christ and how to become closer to both. Believe it or not, most people get a homily from their pastor and that is all they get. No sunday school, no other meetings. Just 20 minutes from the pastor or the priest. And there is nothing wrong with that. But for the lds, they certainly get much more.