Polygamy And Dishonesty-

[Tacenda]

Wow...

I didn't realize JS introduction and practice of polygamy had anything to do with the teachings of BoM.

Not sure the scripture but it is in Jacob and it condemns polygamy except when it has been commanded to raise up seed.

[DBMormon]

I used to think Lying was always wrong..... I no longer think it is black and white.

any who still think that let me know, I will give you an example.

Edited September 13, 2012 by DBMormon

[cesc101]

Tacenda,

For all intent and purposes, i doubt JS polygamy was (or could be) justified in any way by Jacob chapter 2, it only has as a back-bone the fact that it was commanded by God.

How he (JS) went about is a different matter, subject to individual interpretation and appreciation.

The only problem is see with critics is their failure to recognize the influence his humanity had on he magnifying his prophectic calling.

[cesc101]

I used to think Lying was always wrong..... I no longer think it is black and white.

any who still think that let me know, I will give you an example.

ha ha ha...!

I still do...!!

You'd better not be caught...!!!

[DavidB]

Not sure the scripture but it is in Jacob and it condemns polygamy except when it has been commanded to raise up seed.

What makes the Jacob verse a universal statement? I see it as direction to a very specific people. Modern revelation tells polygamy is a law of the Holy Priesthood.

[DavidB]

The simple fact and it is accepted by both sides as documented fact, is that Joseph Smith did not always answer truthfully about his polygamy.

So now that not always answering honestly about polygamy is settled....let us now begin the "it is not a lie if ________" or alternatively "it is not dishonest if ______"

Edited September 14, 2012 by DavidB

[divinenature]

Joseph Smith

I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. [...]

This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. [...]

A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery. I never had any fuss with these men until that Female Relief Society brought out the paper against adulterers and adulteresses. [...]

What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. (History of the Church, v.6, May 1844, pgs 410-11)

[Glenn101]

No one is falling away from the Church Glen so just relax. I still sustain and reveer Joseph as both Prophet and Seer and Revelator.... as well as a man who flat out lied to his wife's face and decieved her in a multiplicity of ways.

Why is that a problem for you?

Big UP!

Lamanite

Lamanite, I was not aiming that at you. There are some who frequesnt this board that have acknowledged that they are having problems with certain aspects of church history and are close to the edge because of that.

It is evident that Joseph was in a tremendously difficult situation because of the commandment on polygamy. All of his actions and words may not have been the most wise, and some of his statements may not have been completely straightforward. If a person takes the stance that Joseph was indeed a prophet of God and had been commanded to take plural wives, then that person needs to "walk a mile in his shoes" and maybe he or she would come away with a different perspective.

Joseph's words may not have been outright fabrications,but they were carefully chosen and may have been more than a little innovative with the truth. But, since I am not his judge, and I, nor anyone else has received a revelation from God that Joseph is/was a fallen prophet, I had better let God do the judgeing. After all, He alone is in posession of all of the facts. We are not.

Emma herself is reported to have denied that Joseph ever practiced polygamy. I am according her the same accord I do to Joseph. God is her judge. I do not know what her state of mind was. But I do remember, from my studies, the many extreme, often cruel, trials that she went through. Yet, she continued in her faith, both of the gospel, and her belief in Joseph as a prophet. I do not subscribe to the notion that their mariage was destroyed. She was with him to the end of his life on this earth, and I feel that in the eternities we shall see Joseph and Emma hand in hand.

Living the commandments of God can, and has often brought those who are striving to live those commandments in conflict with other cultures. When the Saints fled to the mountains of Utah, the Lord could have established them as a nation unto themselves there. But He did not do so, evidently because the United States was to become His vehicle for spreading the gospel, much as the Roman Empire was used by the Lord in the early days of the Christian church as a vehicle for spreading the Gospel. But the Lord did not suspend the practice of polygamy for several decades, which put many members of the church in difficult positions of having to obey God and break some Federal laws. That put them in direct conflict with the "we believe in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law" part of the articles of faith as well as the Federal laws. What's a person to do?

Glenn

[Darren10]

That would be the only way it would be okay to live polygamy if you're going by the BOM.

But since when is the Book of Mormon considered the only source of revelation?

[Darren10]

I used to think Lying was always wrong..... I no longer think it is black and white.

any who still think that let me know, I will give you an example.

Ummmm, in your post the only thing I see after that are links to your mormondiscussions and your facebook. Are these examples of lying?

[mapman]

I don't know how much Emma knew about what Joseph was doing. I would suggest that you can believe that he was commanded to practice polygamy by God but that he didn't carry out the commandment entirely correctly. I don't know how correct his actions were, but I'm keeping myself open to the idea that he made mistakes with carrying out plural marriage.

[Biz]

Yea, yea, yea, blame the poster!

Now that we are past that, seminary graduate, two year mission service, three years institute, read numerous books from LDS book stores and for all my life I believed Joseph Smith had one wife and her name was Emma Smith. That can a worms could have been a worm had I been exposed to the facts earlier in life and by official sources.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Biz

[why me]

That would be the only way it would be okay to live polygamy if you're going by the BOM.

This is not exactly true, especially if we go back to abraham. It seems to me that the main reason for polygamy was to test faithfulness and sacrifice. And it did test the faithfulness and sacrifice of many when they heard about it, including Brigham Young and the other apostles. Not to mention the women involved which is one reason why when they prayed about the principle they had a strong spiritual experience that it were true. And none ever denied that experience.

We can talk agnes coolbrith as an example:

Agnes wrote to her nephew, Joseph F. Smith: “I acknowledge none greater...than those that belong to the household of Joseph our Dear Dear Dear departed one Joseph...I could say many things to you...that I know and that has been told me by those that are dead and gone but perhaps you would not believe me no I know that you would not so it is best for me to keep silent”.

She wrote this years later and obviously her experience was not a bedroom romp. There was more to it and most likely even more spiritual experiences because of it.

[why me]

Yea, yea, yea, blame the poster!

Now that we are past that, seminary graduate, two year mission service, three years institute, read numerous books from LDS book stores and for all my life I believed Joseph Smith had one wife and her name was Emma Smith. That can a worms could have been a worm had I been exposed to the facts earlier in life and by official sources.

Did you have seminary?

Moreover, Joseph Smith and the Church were to accept the principle of plural marriage as part of the restoration of all things (see v. 45). Accustomed to conventional marriage patterns, the Prophet was at first understandably reluctant to engage in this new practice. Due to a lack of historical documentation, we do not know what his early attempts were to comply with the commandment in Ohio. His first recorded plural marriage in Nauvoo was to Louisa Beaman; it was performed by Bishop Joseph B. Noble on 5 April 1841. ¹² During the next three years Joseph took additional plural wives in accordance with the Lord’s commands.

As members of the Council of the Twelve Apostles returned from their missions to the British Isles in 1841, Joseph Smith taught them one by one the doctrine of plurality of wives, and each experienced some difficulty in understanding and accepting this doctrine. ¹³ Brigham Young, for example, recounted his struggle: “I was not desirous of shrinking from any duty, nor of failing in the least to do as I was commanded, but it was the first time in my life that I had desired the grave, and I could hardly get over it for a long time. And when I saw a funeral, I felt to envy the corpse its situation, and to regret that I was not in the coffin.” ¹⁴

http://seminary.lds....ft-16-20-20.asp

Go to chapter 19 About life in Nauvoo and skim through the subheading 'Revelations on Marriage' The teenagers are exposed to plural marriage, complete with Joseph Smith practicing it. Maybe you were sick that day. What more should the church do?

Edited September 14, 2012 by why me

[why me]

Yea, yea, yea, blame the poster!

In some cases one can blame the poster. The seminary manual has much information in it. If the person does not know what is in the seminary manual and what is being taught to teenagers, who should get the blame? Now i am not saying that this is that poster's problem but you can see just where many church members are led astray by antimormon sites and critic interpretations.

[DavidB]

In some cases one can blame the poster. The seminary manual has much information in it. If the person does not know what is in the seminary manual and what is being taught to teenagers, who should get the blame? Now i am not saying that this is that poster's problem but you can see just where many church members are led astray by antimormon sites and critic interpretations.

Terribly faulty reasoning.g.

How long has it been in seminary manuals?

What percentage of Church membership attended or attends seminary?

[why me]

Terribly faulty reasoning.g.

How long has it been in seminary manuals?

What percentage of Church membership attended or attends seminary?

I have no idea. But it is in the seminary manual and it is on the church website. How long has it been there? I have no idea. But one thing I do know is this: the church is definitely not hiding its history now at this moment. Aren't you happy about that? Now what would you like the church to do? Here is what I think:

All adults should take seminary class.

[Calm]

Did you have seminary?....

http://seminary.lds....ft-16-20-20.asp

Go to chapter 19 About life in Nauvoo and skim through the subheading 'Revelations on Marriage' The teenagers are exposed to plural marriage, complete with Joseph Smith practicing it. Maybe you were sick that day. What more should the church do?

That is an institute manual actually and not a required class. They have had that since at least the 90s, I thought it was since the early 80s, but not sure now. The previous manual had plural marriage in it as well and that one went back to the early 60s or 70s.

Seminary does not have that info.

It has been online for several years now on the lds.org site, one of the first things that got put online once they started expanding past manuals, magazines and scriptures. I don't know when the CES site got going, but it would have been online there since then.

Edited September 14, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I have no idea. But it is in the seminary manual and it is on the church website. How long has it been there? I have no idea. But one thing I do know is this: the church is definitely not hiding its history now at this moment. Aren't you happy about that? Now what would you like the church to do? Here is what I think:

All adults should take seminary class.

Converts don't always have a chance. If you are suggesting institute...again, older converts don't have a chance and not all areas have institutes.

[DBMormon]

Ummmm, in your post the only thing I see after that are links to your mormondiscussions and your facebook. Are these examples of lying?

No,

What I am saying is that I look at examples of lying in the world and do not think all are wrong.

Example which I shared before....

An intruder breaks into your home, you hear the break in and have your kids hide under your bed. When the intruder makes his way upstairs to you he holds a gun to your head and asks where your kids are? You tell him they spent the night at a friends house!!!

You lied, was it wrong?..... no

I am not saying I lie and justify it but rather there are instances of lying in the world that are not wrong in the eyes of God because it protects someone in a drastic way.

Edited September 14, 2012 by DBMormon

[why me]

Converts don't always have a chance. If you are suggesting institute...again, older converts don't have a chance and not all areas have institutes.

I guess that I am thinking that any class that this manual is taught can be taught to us adults too. The manual is great. The section on the martyrdom of Joseph is great. I never knew that the mobs attempted to come up the stairs and Joseph shouted them down. And then they came back later fully loaded.

[Tacenda]

I guess that I am thinking that any class that this manual is taught can be taught to us adults too. The manual is great. The section on the martyrdom of Joseph is great. I never knew that the mobs attempted to come up the stairs and Joseph shouted them down. And then they came back later fully loaded.

Did it mention JS had a gun and fired back? Just curious about it. On the web they are saying two men were killed by JS. Is this in the manual?

Edited September 14, 2012 by Tacenda

[Deborah]

I am always amazed at how strong one carries on this argument about did Joseph lie, did Emma know, etc. when plain and simply we don't know. Unless someone comes up with some authentic source it's all speculation and to twist oneself into a knot because of it seems like a waste of time and energy. Either you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet or not. And in doing so you accept that he was human like all of us and like every prophet before and after. But when it came to doing the Lord's work, though like Jonah he may not have liked it and may have tried to escape it, in the end he did what the Lord wanted.

[KevinG]

Did it mention JS had a gun and fired back? Just curious about it. On the web they are saying two men were killed by JS. Is this in the manual?

Do yourself a favor. You live in Utah right?

Take an afternoon off from the anti-Mormon web sites and go to the Church Museum of History. When you go into the lobby turn to the first room on your right. If it is in the same place it was 20 years ago there is a display case on your left that contains the pepper box pistol smuggled into Joseph so he could defend himself against a large mob of armed men intent on his death.

Eyewitness testimony shows that three men were wounded in return fire from the upper floor of the Carthage jail. None of them died from those wounds.

We sure do a lousy job of hiding our history. Oh and admission is free.

Edited September 14, 2012 by KevinG

[CV75]

Yea, yea, yea, blame the poster!

Now that we are past that, seminary graduate, two year mission service, three years institute, read numerous books from LDS book stores and for all my life I believed Joseph Smith had one wife and her name was Emma Smith. That can a worms could have been a worm had I been exposed to the facts earlier in life and by official sources.

I joined the church over 35 years ago in New York. At the time, I just figured/assumed Joseph Smith was a polygamist; it had no bearing on my testimony, and no one ever went out of their way to tell me whether he was or he wasn't. In fact, polygamy just wasn't much of a topic of discussion--not much interest in it apparently.