Polygamy And Dishonesty-

[Glenn101]

I think it is fair for them to think they have an expectation of being taught all known truth about doctrine and church history through the church, though I also agree it is not a realistic expectation. But the last thing I would do is treat them as the problem. I would rather explain why they felt that way and show them kindly why it is unrealistic.

There is not enough time in a three hour block to teach "all the known truth about doctrine and church history." That is completely unrealistic. The purpose of those meetings is to provide guidance, a starting point for our own personal study, as well as spiritual edification and inspiration.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

On the topic of Joseph firing a gun, this was common knowledge back when I was a kid. I remember my mother telling me about it in the early sixties.

Glenn

[why me]

There is not enough time in a three hour block to teach "all the known truth about doctrine and church history." That is completely unrealistic. The purpose of those meetings is to provide guidance, a starting point for our own personal study, as well as spiritual edification and inspiration.

Glenn

I think that the manual should be taught to all adults. It is a great manual fill with good details. I think that there may be a place for lds history for a sunday school class for those who wish to study it. And in this way, no one can claim ignorance.

[why me]

Why me , keep posting and I will continue to point out the serious flaw in your reasoning.

When was that manual published.

I realize david that it may be difficult to understand that you may have been misled by the antimormons on the internet when they repeat like a parrot that the church hides its history. It is there on church websites. Now is every single detail there....can one find something omitted? Yes. The history of the united states is at times 300 pages when an author writes about it. I am sure that something was left out.

Edited September 15, 2012 by why me

[why me]

Thanks for posting that a third time why me. I read it again but this time, something struck me. Joseph had just witnessed his dear Hyrum get shot in the face and then took the revolver and shot through the door. One can imagine the pain and anger he must have felt. Anyone would have done the same and tried to avenge a loved ones cold blooded murder.

I did read something that I was surprised about. I never heard this before until I read the manual. Are you ready to be shocked? Well, here it is:

That night Willard Richards, John Taylor, and Dan Jones remained with Joseph and Hyrum in jail. They prayed together and read from the Book of Mormon. Joseph bore his testimony to the guards. Much later, Joseph was lying on the floor next to riverboat captain Dan Jones. “Joseph whispered to Dan Jones, ‘are you afraid to die?’ Dan said, ‘Has that time come, think you? Engaged in such a cause I do not think that death would have many terrors.’ Joseph replied, ‘You will yet see Wales [Jones’s native land], and fulfill the mission appointed you before you die.’”¹⁷Elder Jones later fulfilled the prophecy, serving a great mission in Wales.

About midnight several men surrounded the jail and started up the stairs to the prisoners’ room. One of the brethren grabbed a weapon that had been smuggled into their room during the day. Members of the mob, standing near the door, heard them moving and hesitated. “The Prophet with a ‘Prophet’s voice’ called out ‘Come on ye assassins we are ready for you, and would as willingly die now as at daylight.’”¹⁸The mob retreated.

I did not realize that the mob came twice. The first time they retreated when Joseph shouted in a prophet's voice and the second time with murder on their minds. I love the first attempt. There we have the mob going up the stairs when they hear a loud shout out: Come on ye assassins we are ready for you and would as willingly die now as at daylight. How could I be a member for 35 years and not know this? I am shocked.

[DBMormon]

That night Willard Richards, John Taylor, and Dan Jones remained with Joseph and Hyrum in jail. They prayed together and read from the Book of Mormon. Joseph bore his testimony to the guards. Much later, Joseph was lying on the floor next to riverboat captain Dan Jones. “Joseph whispered to Dan Jones, ‘are you afraid to die?’ Dan said, ‘Has that time come, think you? Engaged in such a cause I do not think that death would have many terrors.’ Joseph replied, ‘You will yet see Wales [Jones’s native land], and fulfill the mission appointed you before you die.’”¹⁷Elder Jones later fulfilled the prophecy, serving a great mission in Wales.

About midnight several men surrounded the jail and started up the stairs to the prisoners’ room. One of the brethren grabbed a weapon that had been smuggled into their room during the day. Members of the mob, standing near the door, heard them moving and hesitated. “The Prophet with a ‘Prophet’s voice’ called out ‘Come on ye assassins we are ready for you, and would as willingly die now as at daylight.’”¹⁸The mob retreated.

I did not realize that the mob came twice. The first time they retreated when Joseph shouted in a prophet's voice and the second time with murder on their minds. I love the first attempt. There we have the mob going up the stairs when they hear a loud shout out: Come on ye assassins we are ready for you and would as willingly die now as at daylight. How could I be a member for 35 years and not know this? I am shocked.

I didn't know that either. Why Me because of you I had only to go 17 years before learning this. (I just realized I have spent half my life in the church, I turned 34 yesterday).

The learning to be done from your discovery is that the church doesn't just not share unimportant negative details, they also somethimes do not share unimportant positive details. Which says more about what they think is crucial to share in bringing all onto Christ rather then make sure we teach complete and total history.

Edited September 15, 2012 by DBMormon

[why me]

I didn't know that either. Why Me because of you I had only had to go 17 years before learning this. (I just realized I have spent half my life in the church, I turned 34 yesterday).

The learning to be done from your discovery is that the church doesn't just not share unimportant negative details, they also somethimes do not share unimportant positive details. Which says more about what they think is crucial to share in bringing all onto Christ rather then make sure we teach complete and total history.

You are right.

Many people think that joseph was a coward because he had a gun and ran to the window. But they have no idea the true story of that time spent in jail.

Joseph bore his testimony.

He had a fulfilled prophecy.

Praying together.

Reading the book of mormon together.

His heart melting letter to emma which contained this:

That morning Joseph wrote to Emma, “I am very much resigned to my lot, knowing I am justified, and have done the best that could be done. Give my love to the children and all my friends. … May God bless you all.”

None of these facts say 'fraudster' nor coward.

Edited September 15, 2012 by why me

[Tacenda]

David, Why does his having a gun, change the whole story. Is one man with a gun not a martyr when fighting off 30 people who want to kill him illegally for what he believes or practices?

The church doesn't hide this. I knew this as a convert. Again, this is such a small detail to make it a place where faith is lost in any degree.

I've never been there but have read somewhere that someone that did go to Carthage Jail at the time, said the tour guide didn't mention the gun, shouldn't they have?

[Deborah]

uncalled for.

How long does a faith crisis last? 1 day? 2 weeks? 6 months? 3 years?

Why is it that those who are going through a faith crisis assume that no one else has. I certainly went through mine. I questioned everything. It was finally the power of the spirit one night while driving and getting an epiphany of enlightenment that it all came together. It is because I had been so lost that coming back made me stand more firmly than ever. And lest you think it was just one, I've had multiple times of doubts and having to have my testimony renewed. But it was this last experience that was so powerful I turned my life around and became hungry for knowledge. I was careful however to get that knowledge from the right sources and avoid the things which took away from the spirit. I know what is in them but I didn't use them as my resource only as a jumping off point to read what faithful, scholarly men had to say. I knew because they were so much more educated and studied so much more and yet remained faithful that they should be my teachers, because I made the choice I wanted to remain true the the initial testimony I had many years ago when I joined the church.

I know there are others on here who have the same types of crises and turned their lives around, choosing to believe, rather than rejecting that which they once knew or professed to know.

[why me]

I've never been there but have read somewhere that someone that did go to Carthage Jail at the time, said the tour guide didn't mention the gun, shouldn't they have?

I was just speaking about this with the missionaries that came to my house for a practice lesson. One said that they visited the jail with his family. And i asked him about the gun. He said that the guide told the story complete with gun. Don't believe what you read or at least read it critically with a questioning mind.

[DBMormon]

Why is it that those who are going through a faith crisis assume that no one else has. I certainly went through mine. I questioned everything. It was finally the power of the spirit one night while driving and getting an epiphany of enlightenment that it all came together. It is because I had been so lost that coming back made me stand more firmly than ever. And lest you think it was just one, I've had multiple times of doubts and having to have my testimony renewed. But it was this last experience that was so powerful I turned my life around and became hungry for knowledge. I was careful however to get that knowledge from the right sources and avoid the things which took away from the spirit. I know what is in them but I didn't use them as my resource only as a jumping off point to read what faithful, scholarly men had to say. I knew because they were so much more educated and studied so much more and yet remained faithful that they should be my teachers, because I made the choice I wanted to remain true the the initial testimony I had many years ago when I joined the church.

I know there are others on here who have the same types of crises and turned their lives around, choosing to believe, rather than rejecting that which they once knew or professed to know.

Deborah,

First your frustration with my disagreeing with you has now led to you not hearing what that post was about. Please hear me out.

- the post that you quote above was pointed to Kevin - not you. Why? because whether he admits it or not his post was lined with snarky comments about me personally, in areas where his assumptions were wrong. I simply called him out on it.

I never said others don't have them, in fact I believe many (not all or even most) LDS who look into things have them.

Kevin was assuming my faith crisis was ongoing, that it was a point to be mocked, and that it was the only reason I am sticking up for others. all by the which are incorrect or wrong

[why me]

Why is it that those who are going through a faith crisis assume that no one else has. I certainly went through mine. I questioned everything. It was finally the power of the spirit one night while driving and getting an epiphany of enlightenment that it all came together..

This is quite amazing. During the practice lesson the missionary spoke about feeling the spirit. After the practice lesson I had the opportunity to 'critique' them. I told them that feeling the spirit may not be the way to explain it. Rather, experiencing the spirit is much better. You had an experience with the spirit and not a feeling. And that experience changed your life. LDS have experienced the spirit and felt his presence. But it is the experience that it difficult to forget. So much for the 'warm fuzzy'.

[DBMormon]

Deborah

I know there are others on here who have the same types of crises and turned their lives around, choosing to believe, rather than rejecting that which they once knew or professed to know.

Also I agree with all that post said..... except with the notion that any who want to turn it around simply can do so by choosing to believe. Rather they need good answers. I can try to choose to believe in a flying spaghetti monster as John Dehlin says, but without reason, it is pointless. I need to know there is reason to believe. Those reasons can be spiritual or otherwise but must exist.

Lastly, just because you, me and others have done so, doesn't allow us to show our frustration with those having a harder time putting the puzzle together. In their case they may be missing different pieces then you were and it may take a kind friend to help them find them.

Last of all I am not against laying it out there with tough love. But with one struggling, that should always be done in private, as one poster here did with me.

[DBMormon]

This is quite amazing. During the practice lesson the missionary spoke about feeling the spirit. After the practice lesson I had the opportunity to 'critique' them. I told them that feeling the spirit may not be the way to explain it. Rather, experiencing the spirit is much better. You had an experience with the spirit and not a feeling. And that experience changed your life. LDS have experienced the spirit and felt his presence. But it is the experience that it difficult to forget. So much for the 'warm fuzzy'.

Saw these quotes recently that relate to your comments

this quote from Elder Oaks, which was interesting:

I have met persons who told me they have never had a witness from the Holy Ghost because they have never felt their bosom “burn within” them. What does a “burning in the bosom” mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, then I have never had a burning in the bosom.

That was Elder Oaks. Interesting, right? Now here’s Elder Packer:

Some have been misled by expecting revelations too frequently. I have learned that strong, impressive spiritual experiences do not come to us very frequently. Revelations from God—the teachings and directions of the Spirit—are not constant. We believe in continuing revelation, not continuous revelation. We are often left to work out problems without the dictation or specific direction of the Spirit. That is part of the experience we must have in mortality. The people I have found most confused in this Church are those who seek personal revelations on everything.

Let me read you another one, this from Elder McConkie:

Some people postpone acknowledging their testimony until they have experienced a miraculous event. They fail to realize that with most people—especially those raised in the Church—gaining a testimony is not an event but a process. Being born again is a gradual thing, except in a few isolated instances that are so miraculous that they get written up in the scriptures. As far as the generality of the members of the Church are concerned, conversion is a process; and it goes step by step, degree by degree, level by level, from a lower state to a higher, from grace to grace, until the time that the individual is wholly turned to the cause of righteousness.

[Tacenda]

This is quite amazing. During the practice lesson the missionary spoke about feeling the spirit. After the practice lesson I had the opportunity to 'critique' them. I told them that feeling the spirit may not be the way to explain it. Rather, experiencing the spirit is much better. You had an experience with the spirit and not a feeling. And that experience changed your life. LDS have experienced the spirit and felt his presence. But it is the experience that it difficult to forget. So much for the 'warm fuzzy'.

Yes but what does one have to do in order to receive a distinct spiritual manifistation vs. "warm fuzzies"? And what about a feeling that they are being led to info about things that manifests to them things that Jesus would never approve of?

[Deborah]

Also I agree with all that post said..... except with the notion that any who want to turn it around simply can do so by choosing to believe. Rather they need good answers.

Indeed. Even a strong spiritual experience requires something more to sustain it. The point of course is that that revelation initially received can hold you over until you find the additional answers you need and being patient enough to wait for them. What I find disturbing is how quickly some (not you and not all) are willing to throw out everything else because they won't wait for the additional knowledge that I promise will come if you have faith. It was years before I got some critical answers to some disturbing questions but because of other things I had no doubt about I was able to hold on. Surprisingly it was things like the D&C and the Book of Abraham and our teachings about pre-mortal life, temple work, etc that were the glue that held it all together until that happened.

[DBMormon]

Indeed. Even a strong spiritual experience requires something more to sustain it. The point of course is that that revelation initially received can hold you over until you find the additional answers you need and being patient enough to wait for them. What I find disturbing is how quickly some (not you and not all) are willing to throw out everything else because they won't wait for the additional knowledge that I promise will come if you have faith. It was years before I got some critical answers to some disturbing questions but because of other things I had no doubt about I was able to hold on. Surprisingly it was things like the D&C and the Book of Abraham and our teachings about pre-mortal life, temple work, etc that were the glue that held it all together until that happened.

At the same time they are frustrated, hurt, emotionally spent, and feel deeply betrayed. We are seeing symptoms (anger, unreasonable, asking too much, name calling, ect..) and are misdiagnosing the ailment and thereby delivering the wrong cure (throw it back at them, if they can't be nice and civil, then let em have it).

I am suggesting that we always publicly take the extra nice and kind approach while continuing to shoot down bad assumptions and give good answers (never make it personal publicly). If you feel tough love is needed, do it privately by PM

That's all. Everything else said here.... I agree with (Other then Kevin's unfair assumptions of me)

Edited September 15, 2012 by DBMormon

[Calm]

I was just speaking about this with the missionaries that came to my house for a practice lesson. One said that they visited the jail with his family. And i asked him about the gun. He said that the guide told the story complete with gun. Don't believe what you read or at least read it critically with a questioning mind.

It is possible that a tour guide intentionally or unintentionally left it out, but it is hardly something to be ashamed of and makes for a great story in my opinion especially since the Church has the gun itself so I would think that there is no real reason for someone to leave it out and it is more likely that someone wasn't paying full attention to the guide...I know I've done that myself on tours.

[KevinG]

uncalled for.

How long does a faith crisis last? 1 day? 2 weeks? 6 months? 3 years?

What you may percieve as someone addicted to being in crisis may be one deep rooted crisis rather then multiple ones.

Anything else I say will be twisted and turned.... but let me say this

You can be sly and try to refer to me subliminally.... that's ok.

But you have it wrong.

- I had a major faith crisis 6 months ago. If that makes someone else here better then me... awesome

- It went away slowly, sometimes 1 step back before 2 steps forward

- I will always have the back of anyone I perceive as hurting or as a possible struggler. I will tell them when they are wrong. but will not attack them personally, as it does no good, especially in a public forum, where offense is so much easier to be taken.

So if you or anyone else tries to go ad hominem in any way, then my heart will allow me to do nothing else other then call you out... not because I disagree with you on the issue. But because I can't be convinced mocking someone who may be on th edge of leaving the church is ever a good thing

Slow down. First of all when I said no it isn't I was agreeing that it isn't better to pile on the 99 trolls and neglect the one true crisis. I actually agreed with you on that point.

I wasn't referring to you subliminally - I was discussing with you why my reactions to some posters are more harsh than others. I did not lump you into the troll or predator category. In fact your discussions and questions are very intelligent (if I agree with them or not).

Let me give you an example of someone who is addicted to crisis... For example the new poster who asks a question, gets the answer, repeats their objection in light of the answer while ignoring the factual content of the response, then proceeds to complain that he was treated badly or tries to recruit others into discontent by repeating the original question (now phrased as a complaint).

Please re-read the statement now knowing I agreed with your premise that it is better to comfort one genuine questioner than slam 99 trolls. You may see less snark and more genuine concern for those who struggle with their faith.

[KevinG]

I've never been there but have read somewhere that someone that did go to Carthage Jail at the time, said the tour guide didn't mention the gun, shouldn't they have?

"emphas

I went 4 times and learned about the pistol 3 out of the four. When you rotate volunteer tour guides through the jail there is bound to be a bit of variation. The best tour I ever got was from a retired BYU history professor. That was when I took a group of a dozen boy scouts who had just hiked from Nauvoo to Carthage in mid-winter. It was a very touching experience.

Sometimes they de-emphasise things in the tour, like the bullet holes and a reported blood stain on the floor. The stain had been reported and "spiced up" by earlier tour guides with paint to keep it fresh until the general authorities said to stop it so we didn't create some kind of idolatry.

Now they avoid discussion of the reported blood stain and focus on the events in that room.

[KevinG]

(Other then Kevin's unfair assumptions of me)

Can you retract that now? I wasn't assuming you were addicted to crisis.

[ERayR]

Why is it that those who are going through a faith crisis assume that no one else has. I certainly went through mine. I questioned everything. It was finally the power of the spirit one night while driving and getting an epiphany of enlightenment that it all came together. It is because I had been so lost that coming back made me stand more firmly than ever. And lest you think it was just one, I've had multiple times of doubts and having to have my testimony renewed. But it was this last experience that was so powerful I turned my life around and became hungry for knowledge. I was careful however to get that knowledge from the right sources and avoid the things which took away from the spirit. I know what is in them but I didn't use them as my resource only as a jumping off point to read what faithful, scholarly men had to say. I knew because they were so much more educated and studied so much more and yet remained faithful that they should be my teachers, because I made the choice I wanted to remain true the the initial testimony I had many years ago when I joined the church.

I know there are others on here who have the same types of crises and turned their lives around, choosing to believe, rather than rejecting that which they once knew or professed to know.

With me once I had known that personal revelation of the truth of the restoration and of the Book of Mormon and the spirit that goes with that revelation all this other appears as darkness. The spirit is just not there as it is with things that are true.

[DBMormon]

Can you retract that now? I wasn't assuming you were addicted to crisis.

I retract my comments.

Let me give you an example of someone who is addicted to crisis... For example the new poster who asks a question, gets the answer, repeats their objection in light of the answer while ignoring the factual content of the response, then proceeds to complain that he was treated badly or tries to recruit others into discontent by repeating the original question (now phrased as a complaint).

Though I did do the same thing you describe here in my first thread here.

so it is easy to see why I felt they were directed in a way towards me.

Also thank you for the compliment

In fact your discussions and questions are very intelligent (if I agree with them or not).

[KevinG]

Though I did do the same thing you describe here in my first thread here.

I don't think you did that.

Countering with facts and opinions (which you did) is not the same as ignoring others and continuing to spout the same old thing.

Perhaps I should be more specific about identifying trolls. I never thought you were one, even with your first post.

Let me clarify: Addiction to crisis is looking for excuses to be hurt no matter what the facts. Long crisis is continuing to have questions and doubts over a long period of time. I honestly had you squarely in category two.

Edited September 15, 2012 by KevinG

[ERayR]

Deborah

Also I agree with all that post said..... except with the notion that any who want to turn it around simply can do so by choosing to believe. Rather they need good answers. I can try to choose to believe in a flying spaghetti monster as John Dehlin says, but without reason, it is pointless. I need to know there is reason to believe. Those reasons can be spiritual or otherwise but must exist.

I would disagree with you here. It is all about choice. Everyone has to choose who they are going to believe. One can choose to believe the church claims or the other side. Why one chooses what they accept is another debate but each of us do choose..