Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 From another thread a poster said:"I think that for many members the lying and dishonesty surrounding the polygamy issue is more of a problem that the polygamy itself"Well said and thank you.Big UP!Lamanite
zelder Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) The lying is the bigger issue for sure. The main difference between polygamy and adultery is honesty. In polygamy, you take an additional spouse with the consent of the existing spouse. In adultery you take without asking and keep it secret. The pain and suffering felt by the spouses of adulterers has more to do with trust than with sex. Same with swingers, the issue is trust and open honesty not sex. Edited September 13, 2012 by zelder 1
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 From another thread a poster said:"I think that for many members the lying and dishonesty surrounding the polygamy issue is more of a problem that the polygamy itself"Well said and thank you.Big UP!LamaniteDo you mean emma? Emma knew of the polygamy but she wavered between consent and withdrawing consent. What was joseph to do? If the commandment comes and the wife is not always on board, what should he have done? What would you do?
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Also, this was no secret. The cat was out of the bag among the saints."It is true that the Prophet Joseph Smith was visited by many heavenly messengers who helped inaugurate this final dispensation.""Latter-day Saints are blessed through the Prophet Joseph Smith’s great faith and mission that opened the windows of heaven. He was the preappointed agent through which communion with the heavens and the earthly ministry of angels were resumed in a grand manner.""Through faith, his weaknesses became strengths, and he nobly fulfilled his great foreordained mission—because heavenly messengers were his guides."- LDS Church Publication "Ensign,", Oct. 1994, page 62Faithful Mormons accept Joseph Smith's story of conversing face-to-face with God-the-Father and Jesus Christ. They accept his story about angel Moroni visiting him.Joseph Smith also testified of another angelic visitor, one that came to him repeatedly to command him to teach an eternal principle and commandment. This revelation was so important, the angel threatened Smith's life if he did not teach and practice it. Joseph Smith's consistent testimony regarding this heavenly messenger is just as credible as the stories he told about his other visits from the angel Moroni."The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."- Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259"When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine."- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29 "Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him."- Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903"I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him."- Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and ManuscriptsAlso See: http://www.ldshistor.../pc/merlbyu.htm
Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Do you mean emma? Emma knew of the polygamy but she wavered between consent and withdrawing consent. What was joseph to do? If the commandment comes and the wife is not always on board, what should he have done? What would you do?OK...Let's forget about Fanny Alger for a moment and deal with a documented first wife. Louisa Beamen in 1841 I think. (not gonna look it up cuz I don't have time. If I'm wrong about the year just correct me)DID EMMA KNOW ABOUT IT?????Yes or No - I thought so.Big UP!Lamanite
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Get a harem.I would like to know lamanite's response. But he must believe himself to be a prophet who already had visitations by angels and a first vision. What would he do?
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 OK...Let's forget about Fanny Alger for a moment and deal with a documented first wife. Louisa Beamen in 1841 I think. (not gonna look it up cuz I don't have time. If I'm wrong about the year just correct me)DID EMMA KNOW ABOUT IT?????Yes or No - I thought so.Big UP!LamaniteI don't know but here it is in the seminary manual:Moreover, Joseph Smith and the Church were to accept the principle of plural marriage as part of the restoration of all things (see v. 45 ). Accustomed to conventional marriage patterns, the Prophet was at first understandably reluctant to engage in this new practice. Due to a lack of historical documentation, we do not know what his early attempts were to comply with the commandment in Ohio. His first recorded plural marriage in Nauvoo was to Louisa Beaman; it was performed by Bishop Joseph B. Noble on 5 April 1841. 12 During the next three years Joseph took additional plural wives in accordance with the Lord’s commands.As members of the Council of the Twelve Apostles returned from their missions to the British Isles in 1841, Joseph Smith taught them one by one the doctrine of plurality of wives, and each experienced some difficulty in understanding and accepting this doctrine. 13 Brigham Young, for example, recounted his struggle: “I was not desirous of shrinking from any duty, nor of failing in the least to do as I was commanded, but it was the first time in my life that I had desired the grave, and I could hardly get over it for a long time. And when I saw a funeral, I felt to envy the corpse its situation, and to regret that I was not in the coffin.” 14 http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/church-history-institute-student-manual/chft-16-20-20.aspSince others knew about it, why not emma?
Tacenda Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Also, this was no secret. The cat was out of the bag among the saints."It is true that the Prophet Joseph Smith was visited by many heavenly messengers who helped inaugurate this final dispensation.""Latter-day Saints are blessed through the Prophet Joseph Smith’s great faith and mission that opened the windows of heaven. He was the preappointed agent through which communion with the heavens and the earthly ministry of angels were resumed in a grand manner.""Through faith, his weaknesses became strengths, and he nobly fulfilled his great foreordained mission—because heavenly messengers were his guides."- LDS Church Publication "Ensign,", Oct. 1994, page 62Faithful Mormons accept Joseph Smith's story of conversing face-to-face with God-the-Father and Jesus Christ. They accept his story about angel Moroni visiting him.Joseph Smith also testified of another angelic visitor, one that came to him repeatedly to command him to teach an eternal principle and commandment. This revelation was so important, the angel threatened Smith's life if he did not teach and practice it. Joseph Smith's consistent testimony regarding this heavenly messenger is just as credible as the stories he told about his other visits from the angel Moroni."The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."- Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259"When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine."- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29 "Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him."- Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903"I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him."- Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and ManuscriptsAlso See: http://www.ldshistor.../pc/merlbyu.htm So polygamy is an eternal principle?
Ahab Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 From another thread a poster said:"I think that for many members the lying and dishonesty surrounding the polygamy issue is more of a problem that the polygamy itself"Well said and thank you.Big UP!LamaniteHow do you know who was lying and who was telling the truth? You weren't there. You didn't see. You don't know.There are such things as false witnesses, bro. Be careful about who you believe. Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether or not Joseph had more than one wife. I'm fine knowing it was okay if he did. 1
Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 How do you know who was lying and who was telling the truth? You weren't there. You didn't see. You don't know.There are such things as false witnesses, bro. Be careful about who you believe.Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether or not Joseph had more than one wife. I'm fine knowing it was okay if he did.I very small part of me wishes I could still live in that historical vacuum. With all sincerity I admit that a very very very small part of me envys your innocence.Big UP!Lamanite 2
Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 I would like to know lamanite's response. But he must believe himself to be a prophet who already had visitations by angels and a first vision. What would he do?LOL. I've got a wife and four daughters so I am surrounded by a bunch of women! Big UP!Lamanite
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 So polygamy is an eternal principle?Did you see the other post where I showed that it is in the seminary manual? Take a look. No secret there.
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 LOL. I've got a wife and four daughters so I am surrounded by a bunch of women! Big UP!LamaniteMaybe so. But put yourself in his shoes and tell us what you would do. Just use your imagination. On the one hand, it is a commandment and on the other hand, you have a reluctant wife. What do you do?
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 OK...Let's forget about Fanny Alger for a moment and deal with a documented first wife. Louisa Beamen in 1841 I think. (not gonna look it up cuz I don't have time. If I'm wrong about the year just correct me)DID EMMA KNOW ABOUT IT?????Yes or No - I thought so.Big UP!LamaniteLets try this again:I don't know but here it is in the seminary manual:Moreover, Joseph Smith and the Church were to accept the principle of plural marriage as part of the restoration of all things (see v. 45). Accustomed to conventional marriage patterns, the Prophet was at first understandably reluctant to engage in this new practice. Due to a lack of historical documentation, we do not know what his early attempts were to comply with the commandment in Ohio. His first recorded plural marriage in Nauvoo was to Louisa Beaman; it was performed by Bishop Joseph B. Noble on 5 April 1841. 12 During the next three years Joseph took additional plural wives in accordance with the Lord’s commands.As members of the Council of the Twelve Apostles returned from their missions to the British Isles in 1841, Joseph Smith taught them one by one the doctrine of plurality of wives, and each experienced some difficulty in understanding and accepting this doctrine. 13 Brigham Young, for example, recounted his struggle: “I was not desirous of shrinking from any duty, nor of failing in the least to do as I was commanded, but it was the first time in my life that I had desired the grave, and I could hardly get over it for a long time. And when I saw a funeral, I felt to envy the corpse its situation, and to regret that I was not in the coffin.” 14 http://seminary.lds....ft-16-20-20.aspSince others knew about it, why not emma?
CV75 Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 "I think that for many members the lying and dishonesty surrounding the polygamy issue is more of a problem that the polygamy itself"A problem for whom? Even if it was indisputably documented and proven as much as human beings possibly can that President Monson lied about [name an LDS doctrine, practice, public controversy], this would have zero bearing on the benefit of the restored priesthood keys that were and are exercised in my behalf. I've seen too much!
ERayR Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I very small part of me wishes I could still live in that historical vacuum. With all sincerity I admit that a very very very small part of me envys your innocence.Big UP!LamaniteIts called personal revelation and is available to anyone. 1
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Its called personal revelation and is available to anyone.Critics and doubters seem to be ignoring the seminary manual. So much for the hiding of polygamy from the membership. Also, since joseph was preaching the principle to the 12 apostles, and since he was married by a bishop to louisa, I can't see emma not knowing that the practice was alive and well.
Ahab Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I very small part of me wishes I could still live in that historical vacuum. With all sincerity I admit that a very very very small part of me envys your innocence.Big UP!LamaniteInnocence? Don't you mean ignorance? True, I don't really know whether or not Joseph had more than one wife, although I've heard many people say he was sealed to many women, possibly because he thought that was necessary for them to be able to receive the celestial blessings they wouldn't be able to receive without a sealing to someone with the priesthood, but it's not anything I really need to know, either. Whether or not he was, it doesn't affect me. It would be nice to know, though.I guess if God ever considers it to be an important enough issue to tell me if Joseph had more than one wife, he'll let me know.
KevinG Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 If its not about sex how is this any different?Matthew 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was acleansed.4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.Matthew 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the aChrist. (This one I find most significant because he did it after conferring the keys of the kingdom.Could it be that some things are sacred and no one's business but those who are asked to take upon themselves covenants and obligations? I think so. 1
KevinG Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) responded to wrong comment. Edited September 13, 2012 by KevinG
Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Lets try this again:I don't know but here it is in the seminary manual:Moreover, Joseph Smith and the Church were to accept the principle of plural marriage as part of the restoration of all things (see v. 45). Accustomed to conventional marriage patterns, the Prophet was at first understandably reluctant to engage in this new practice. Due to a lack of historical documentation, we do not know what his early attempts were to comply with the commandment in Ohio. His first recorded plural marriage in Nauvoo was to Louisa Beaman; it was performed by Bishop Joseph B. Noble on 5 April 1841. 12 During the next three years Joseph took additional plural wives in accordance with the Lord’s commands.As members of the Council of the Twelve Apostles returned from their missions to the British Isles in 1841, Joseph Smith taught them one by one the doctrine of plurality of wives, and each experienced some difficulty in understanding and accepting this doctrine. 13 Brigham Young, for example, recounted his struggle: “I was not desirous of shrinking from any duty, nor of failing in the least to do as I was commanded, but it was the first time in my life that I had desired the grave, and I could hardly get over it for a long time. And when I saw a funeral, I felt to envy the corpse its situation, and to regret that I was not in the coffin.” 14 http://seminary.lds....ft-16-20-20.aspSince others knew about it, why not emma?Emma didn't know. Perhaps you might try doing historical research from books other than correlated manuals.Big UP!Lamanite 1
Lamanite Posted September 13, 2012 Author Posted September 13, 2012 Ahhh....condescension And saying you are an idiot pretending to be socially acceptable behind a facade of envy. How trite and elitist.You're absolutely right. I understand what you're saying and I apologize. But I still have difficulty expressing the very real existence of my envy and longing for a state of spiritual being that you currently occupy. Don't put a judgment on it. Big UP!@Lamanite
Glenn101 Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 This is one of the issues that will not die. And it has been and will continue to be one of the issues that will "cause" many to fall away from the church. And those will be the wrong reasons to do so. The only real questions: (1) Was Joseph Smith a prophet called of God? (2) Was he commanded in the practice of plural wives? (3) Was he lying when he said that an angel with a drawn sword threatened to cut him off if he did not obey the commandment that he had been given?The question of supposed dishonesty is subordinate to those questions. Remember that Abraham was actually told by the Lord to tell the Egyptians that Sarai was his sister rather than his wife so that the Egyptians would not kill Abraham in order to get Sarai. See Abraham, chapter 2:23-24 in the Pearl of Great Price.If Joseph was a prophet of God and commanded to the practice, we do not have a lot we can really complain about. That is the very first thing that must be resolved. That point has been resolved for me ages ago.Glenn
why me Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Emma didn't know. Perhaps you might try doing historical research from books other than correlated manuals.Big UP!LamaniteSo, others kept it from emma too. And all the 12 apostles kept it from her too. And the bishop who married Joseph and louisa lied to emma too.I wonder what was wrong with emma.
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