Polygamy And Dishonesty-

[DBMormon]

I don't think you did that.

Countering with facts and opinions (which you did) is not the same as ignoring others and continuing to spout the same old thing.

Perhaps I should be more specific about identifying trolls. I never thought you were one, even with your first post.

Let me clarify: Addiction to crisis is looking for excuses to be hurt no matter what the facts. Long crisis is continuing to have questions and doubts over a long period of time. I honestly had you squarely in category two.

Thank You for your words.

[KevinG]

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.

"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego." He continued, "The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TwoWolves-Cherokee.html

[Tacenda]

I would disagree with you here. It is all about choice. Everyone has to choose who they are going to believe. One can choose to believe the church claims or the other side. Why one chooses what they accept is another debate but each of us do choose..

ERayR, it is about choice. What makes it difficult for those that wonder or question is that there are so many choices or facts that make one disbelieve. I wish it were just a couple here and there, but there's so much that we have places like fairlds.com that need to come into the picture. In fact it's when I went to fairlds.com that my eyes were opened and I saw the church in a different light. Yes, I really didn't know the history at all. Even though when I attended LDS Business college I took a class on LDS history, but at my age (20ish) it just went in one ear and out the other. And Joseph Smith's polygamy wasn't discussed from what I recall.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

ERayR, it is about choice. What makes it difficult for those that wonder or question is that there are so many choices or facts that make one disbelieve. I wish it were just a couple here and there, but there's so much that we have places like fairlds.com that need to come into the picture. In fact it's when I went to fairlds.com that my eyes were opened and I saw the church in a different light. Yes, I really didn't know the history at all. Even though when I attended LDS Business college I took a class on LDS history, but at my age (20ish) it just went in one ear and out the other. And Joseph Smith's polygamy wasn't discussed from what I recall.

I didn't say there was not a lot of choices. A good rule of thumb however is Joshua's choose ye this day.... but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. It does make it easier.

[why me]

Saw these quotes recently that relate to your comments

this quote from Elder Oaks, which was interesting:

I have met persons who told me they have never had a witness from the Holy Ghost because they have never felt their bosom “burn within” them. What does a “burning in the bosom” mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, then I have never had a burning in the bosom.

My point DB was that our church is not just a feeling church. Rather is is also an experience church. Many people have had a spiritual experience to confirm their faith or to confirm truth. For example, the 11 witnesses, some of the wives of Joseph Smith, Whitmer's mother, apostle Paul, alma the younger, etc. And I am sure that people on this forum could confirm this. When deborah told her story, I took it to be a spiritual experience to have the power of the holy ghost confirm a truth or tp enlighten the mind or soul.

[DavidB]

I realize david that it may be difficult to understand that you may have been misled by the antimormons on the internet when they repeat like a parrot that the church hides its history. It is there on church websites. Now is every single detail there....can one find something omitted? Yes. The history of the united states is at times 300 pages when an author writes about it. I am sure that something was left out.

Why me, aside from your very false assumptions I have not been misled. I do not get information from "anti Mormon site" I do not get information from pro Mormon site like FAIR - in my experience I find both to have limited credibility; and thus ultimately not very useful.

What does bother me though, is what I have already expressed, is when people who know.something say "I know and you are lazy or unrighteous for not knowing yourself."

[DBMormon]

ERayR, it is about choice. What makes it difficult for those that wonder or question is that there are so many choices or facts that make one disbelieve. I wish it were just a couple here and there, but there's so much that we have places like fairlds.com that need to come into the picture. In fact it's when I went to fairlds.com that my eyes were opened and I saw the church in a different light. Yes, I really didn't know the history at all. Even though when I attended LDS Business college I took a class on LDS history, but at my age (20ish) it just went in one ear and out the other. And Joseph Smith's polygamy wasn't discussed from what I recall.

Very correct is isn't that there is a really difficult issue, is that there are thousands of issues... some are nonsense and hogwash, but still the pure number of issues brought up by critics is overwhelming to one who hasn't encountered it before.

[DBMormon]

My point DB was that our church is not just a feeling church. Rather is is also an experience church. Many people have had a spiritual experience to confirm their faith or to confirm truth. For example, the 11 witnesses, some of the wives of Joseph Smith, Whitmer's mother, apostle Paul, alma the younger, etc. And I am sure that people on this forum could confirm this. When deborah told her story, I took it to be a spiritual experience to have the power of the holy ghost confirm a truth or tp enlighten the mind or soul.

Ia gree why me, just sayin the apostles themselves seem less for a burning in the bosson and more for a tangible experience based testimony. My was both spiritual and tangible ( not just emotion) which I think they are speaking against here in regards to pure emotion and untangible.

Edited September 15, 2012 by DBMormon

[why me]

Ia gree why me, just sayin the apostles themselves seem less for a burning in the bosson and more for a tangible experience based testimony. My was both spiritual and tangible ( not just emotion) which I think they are speaking against here in regards to pure emotion and untangible.

I have often wondered if these exmormons ever had a spiritual experience in the lds church because many only claim their 'warm fuzzy'. And since this is the polygamy thread, many of the wives of joseph smith had a spiritual experience to confirm the truthfulness of the principle. It wasn't a feeling.

[cursor]

And what should Joseph have done? If he were a prophet and he was commanded to practice polygamy after stalling on the principle, what should he have done...obeyed emma or obeyed god?

Actually, according to D&C 132, the consent of both are required. The major three rules are clearly referenced in verse 61:

And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

1. Taking any/all women as wives must be by God's permission. (see v.19)
   
2. All new women candidates must be virgins.
   
3. The first wife must always give permission.
   

[cursor]

When was Joseph commanded to raise seed?

From MormonNewsroom.org:

The standard doctrine of the Church is monogamy, as it always has been, as indicated in the Book of Mormon (Jacob chapter 2): “Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none. …

For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people

;

otherwise

they shall hearken unto these things.”

Edited September 15, 2012 by cursor

[Deborah]

The issue of raising up seed is an interesting one in light of the history. As far as we know Joseph had no progeny except through Emma. However, the other saints who went west raised up many righteous men and women who became future leaders of the church. It seems that this requirement was fulfilled with those polygamous saints. After all how many modern day saints with pioneer ancestors claim that they came from polygamous ancestry. My children can claim that on their father's side.

I really believe that when plural marriage ended the time was right for many reasons, among which the righteous seed had already grown and spread and the gospel was going out further and further into the world. Take that with the desire to be under the United States emblem and to not have to risk further arrests and persecution the time was precisely right for the Lord to end it. People may mock us saying we let outside factors influence us but can anyone really see us going into the 20th century and spreading throughout the world given the level of morality that began to creep into our society. And of course it has only gotten worse. To me the timing could not be more perfect and to deny the hand of they Lord in this because of that is not understanding how cognizant and involved the Lord is in the lives of the saints.

[DavidB]

If raising children IS THE ONLY reason for polygamy, then must we presume that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his plural wives? Which means the testimony of his wives during a trail wherein they stated they had sexual relations with him, is truthful as to that aspect.

Edited September 16, 2012 by DavidB

[KevinG]

If raising children IS THE ONLY reason for polygamy,

But its not. So the rest of your statement is nonsensical.

I don't care if he did or didn't have sexual relations with his wives if God ordained the sealings. (Which according to those involved God did).

Edited September 16, 2012 by KevinG

[KevinG]

Those men an women who were sealed to Joseph and later had lineages of their own did in a very real sense raise up seed unto the Lord that had the benefit of being part of Josephs lineage ba adoption.

.

[cursor]

But its not. So the rest of your statement is nonsensical.

I don't care if he did or didn't have sexual relations with his wives if God ordained the sealings. (Which according to those involved God did).

1. You're missing his point about the reason for the Jacob (BofM) stated reason for having multiple wives... or at least you're not addressing it adequately.

2. With "I don't care ... ", you're simply being unnecessarily dismissive.

3. "So the rest of your statement is nonsensical." Um ... by what standard? Please, be more kind, and more cooperative. Thanks.

[cursor]

Those men an women who were sealed to Joseph and later had lineages of their own did in a very real sense raise up seed unto the Lord that had the benefit of being part of Josephs lineage ba adoption.

So,

1. You seem to suggest that the sealing of men to Joseph Smith somehow contributed (in any way) to the raising "up [of] seed unto the Lord." How? (And, FWIW, this cannot have anything to do with D&C 132).

2.Additionally, how might the sealing of women (necessarily "virgins," BTW, according to D&C 132), with whom Joseph Smith is supposed to have had no sexual relations, possibly contribute to "rais[ing] up seed unto the Lord?"

Edited September 16, 2012 by cursor

[ERayR]

1. You're missing his point about the reason for the Jacob (BofM) stated reason for having multiple wives... or at least you're not addressing it adequately.

2. With "I don't care ... ", you're simply being unnecessarily dismissive.

3. "So the rest of your statement is nonsensical." Um ... by what standard? Please, be more kind, and more cooperative. Thanks.

I think an "I don't care" is the proper response here. Whether or not Joseph consummated the marriages and sealings is irrelevant as long as God approved.

[KevinG]

I can't help the contextually challenged.

The statement "If raising children IS THE ONLY reason for polygamy..." is a false premise. Therefore any conclusion from that premise is flawed.

[cursor]

I can't help the contextually challenged.

The statement "If raising children IS THE ONLY reason for polygamy..." is a false premise. Therefore any conclusion from that premise is flawed.

I must be the problem. Clear enough. Hey, thanks for adding significant content to the discussion.

BTW, what are the other "reason for polygamy," and would please provide credible/substantiated references that support the same? Hey, super-thanks.

Edited September 17, 2012 by cursor

[smac97]

I am considered Born in the Covenant, and my family Church roots.go back to the days of Joseph Smith.

Same here.

I was 25 and a RM when I first heard about Joseph Smith having a gun at Carthage.

I was 11 years old or so when I first heard about this. I learned about it by reading and from lessons taught to me by my mother.

The LDS Church a very limited amount of time each week to instruct church members about the saving doctrines of the Restored Gospel. Church history obviously helps create a narrative construct through which these saving doctrines can be conveyed. Beyond that objective, however, the obligation to acquire substantive familiarity with the history of the Church falls to parents and to individual members.

So it seems rather absurd to fault the Church for failing to include this historical detail or that in its doctrinal lessons, particularly where the information is readily available to anyone who wishes to acquire it through individual study. For example, Joseph's gun was specifically referenced in a 1994 Ensign Article:

Other brethren who had been at the jail, such as Cyrus Wheelock and John Fullmer, had gone to Nauvoo to bring back witnesses. Stephen Markham had gone for medicine. Others who had left were not permitted to reenter. James Wood, principal counsel for the Church leaders, had gone to Nauvoo, and his assistant, H. T. Reid, had not been seen for hours. Since arriving in Carthage, the men in the jail had had a steady stream of visitors. Now there was none.

The four men had two firearms among them, left behind by friends:

a single-shot pistol Joseph had passed to Hyrum and a six-shot pistol, called a pepperbox, which the Prophet retained

. They also had two walking canes: a large hickory stick called a “rascal-beater” and a smaller walking cane. Joseph’s companions had used both to beat back the rabble while making their way from the Hamilton House to the jail two days earlier.

...

Reaching the top of the stairs and assuming the door locked, the mobbers fired at the latch, shattering the door’s edge. Inside, the Prophet, Willard Richards, and John Taylor jumped back to the wall. Almost at the same time, a ball came through the door and hit Hyrum in the face. From the outside, a second ball hit him in the back. He fell full length to the floor, face up. “I am a dead man,” he murmured.

The Prophet dropped to his brother. “Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum,” he groaned. The deep look of sympathy on Joseph’s face fastened itself to Elder Taylor’s mind.

The Prophet then stood, and with a firm step he went to the door, pulled the pepperbox from his pocket, and, reaching around the door casing, fired blindly into the hallway. He snapped all six shots. Half discharged, striking three men.

...

The Prophet—in an attempt to draw the mobbers’ attention away from the room—dropped his pistol

and went quickly to the window and jumped to the ledge. He was hit simultaneously in the back by two balls fired from the door, and in the chest by a third ball fired from the outside. Joseph poised momentarily on the sill. “Oh Lord, my God!” he cried, then fell dead to the yard below.

The responsibility for learning about the Restored Gospel and its historical context lies with parents and, later, with the individual.

I was much older than 25 when I learned of Joseph Smiths polygamy.

I wasn't. I was 14 or so. I learned about Joseph Smith's polygamy from my parents. My Mom frequently gave us lessons on church history. She even made up illustrations to go along with the lessons. I remembers her hand-drawn pictures of things like John Taylor's pocket watch with the bullet hole in it, the handbell Brigham Young used to call his large family together for meals, family prayers, etc., and so on. While I was in the military (prior to my mission) and during my mission, my dad and I had long discussions about church doctrine and history. Typically, I would write to him and include a question about something related to the Gospel ("What eventually happened to Laban's sword?", for example), and he would write back detailed responses. This went on for years, and still goes on today.

I have been fortunate that my mom was willing to override the objections of her children ("But Mom, we can't have a lesson now, Star Trek: The Next Generation is on!") to give us lessons about topics that really mattered. I have also been fortunate that my Dad has spent so much time in personal study of the Restored Gospel and of Church history, and that he was willing to spend time helping his children learn about these things.

So yes, life long active members do not and are not exposed to some historical details.

I see this principally as a failing of parents and individuals to study the Restored Gospel on their own. This information has been readily available from many, many sources for many, many years.

Thanks,

-Smac

[cdowis]

I have to confess that I was one of those parents who did not teach these historical details to my children, to my regret. I guess when I heard about the pistol, JS wives, etc I didn't think it was a big deal.

"That's interesting.... that makes sense" I guess I assumed that my children would have the same response -- no big deal. But I learned these details thru a study of church history, and my children learned them from the enemies of the church, which makes all the difference.... the difference betwee a historical detail and a breathless expose, I guess.

[Pahoran]

Condescended post there.

Primary children are taught the history of Joseph Smith martyrdom - were are taught all details of the event but for Joseph shooting back - why are all the other historical details taught to children but the gun is left out.

Are you sure about that?

Primary 5 Manual

Only four men remained in Carthage Jail: the Prophet Joseph Smith; his brother Hyrum; and John Taylor and Willard Richards, two of the Apostles. These four men had two guns that had been given to them by friends who visited them. Elder Taylor and Elder Richards also had walking canes.

Because the governor had left Carthage and had put some members of the mob in charge of the jail, the four men knew their lives were in danger. That morning Joseph had written a letter to his family telling them that he loved them and that he was innocent. In the letter he also pronounced a blessing on his family and friends. In the afternoon John Taylor sang “A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief” (Hymns, no. 29). This beautiful song about the Savior comforted the men greatly, and the Prophet asked Elder Taylor to sing it again.

Around five o’clock in the evening a mob of about one hundred men attacked the jail. Many of the men had blackened their faces with mud and gunpowder so they would not be recognized.The guards at the jail were friends of the mobbers and made no serious attempt to stop the attack. Some members of the mob shot at the windows of the jail, and others ran up the stairs to shoot into the room where the Church leaders were.

The brethren tried to bar the door shut and use their few weapons to drive off the mob. Joseph Smith fired a pistol and John Taylor used his heavy cane to try to knock down the guns of the mob as they were pushed into the room through the door, but there were too many people in the mob for the brethren to defend themselves.

Seems like a strange way to leave it out, don't you think?

Regards,

Pahoran

[smac97]

Are you sure about that?

Primary 5 Manual

Seems like a strange way to leave it out, don't you think?

Regards,

Pahoran

I grew up in the Church and attended church pretty much every Sunday. I think I probably paid attention 15-20% of the time, if that.

I wonder how many details and how much information I missed during the 80-85% of the time I was not paying attention.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ERayR]

I am considered Born in the Covenant, and my family Church roots.go back to the days of Joseph Smith.

I was 25 and a RM when I first heard about Joseph Smith having a gun at Carthage.

I was much older than 25 when I learned of Joseph Smiths polygamy.

So yes, life long active members do not and are not exposed to some historical details.

So what is the big thing about Joseph Smith having a gun in Carthage Jail? I do not understand why that is a problem. As it turned out he really needed an arsenal and a few militia.