Polygamy And Dishonesty-

[DBMormon]

So? Why do you say shame on them? Most of them are busy raising their families. Certainly when I was dealing with 4 children the last thing on my mind was studying church history. I don't think it's necessary to do more than read and study the scriptures and most people will never care for more. But then no one should start whining when they decide they should have known more and no one told them.

Do I wish we could cover more in our church classes? Of course. However, what do you sacrifice and what is more important? Learning those principles of the gospel that will exalt and lift you or learning the little tidbits of our history which are certainly fascinating but not necessary for salvation, unless of course you let those things undermine your testimony.

I find that people who get upset at something new are those looking for an excuse to be upset.

I agree with the majority of these cases.... but absolutely not all. And when we accuse the exception of having the motives and attitude of the majority, we offend and drive a deeper wedge for truth seekers.

[ERayR]

Kevin, some here may be capable of telling the difference........ but

Go look at my first thread, way too many here made a false assumption where you say the difference should have been known. I was told I was trolling.... wasn't the case.

Maybe posters here would be better to acknowledge they can not tell the difference between a frustrated hurt member clinging to what is left of his testimony and a critic trolling the site....

It is sometimes hard to tell. That is why I try to not call troll. However, it is sometimes necessary to confront some information.

[KevinG]

Kevin, some here may be capable of telling the difference........ but

Go look at my first thread, way too many here made a false assumption where you say the difference should have been known. I was told I was trolling.... wasn't the case.

Maybe posters here would be better to acknowledge they can not tell the difference between a frustrated hurt member clinging to what is left of his testimony and a critic trolling the site....

I've seen posters jump too quickly to conclusions but I've also see them apologize for doing so. I've seen more cases of people trolling or playing us for fools. As ERay says it is sometimes better to provide information but for those who claim FAIR is "attacks" or any apologetic response is "mean spirited" lose credibility way fast.

I'm pretty touchy about the scolding from those who really demonstrate no desire to learn or have questions answered and in reality just want to lecture and prove how stupid True Believing Mormons are.

Edited September 15, 2012 by KevinG

[DBMormon]

To me it is simple if you want to know you seek information. If you don't seek information then you can not blame someone else for not knowing.

agreed, but some in faith crisis don't see it that way and they can't be told it's their fault, that does them no good. They have to have someone walk them through it and that person as to be considered a friend and has to come accross as having their best interest at heart, even if the other person continues the rhetoric for a while.

[DBMormon]

Guys, I have no problem with the conclusion that the church isn't hiding anything. I just can do the pile on. I felt the same way 6 months ago.... I needed a friend who had answers, not apologists who didn't like my tone.

Edited September 15, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

I've seen posters jump too quickly to conclusions but I've also see them apologize for doing so. I've seen more cases of people trolling or playing us for fools. As ERay says it is sometimes better to provide information but for those who claim FAIR is "attacks" or any apologetic response is "mean spirited" lose credibility way fast.

I'm pretty touchy about the scolding from those who really demonstrate no desire to learn or have questions answered and in reality just want to lecture and prove how stupid True Believing Mormons are.

So that said, is it better to pile on 99 trollers and drive away the one honest person in crisis, or let the 99 drum you with their tone while you continue to answer kindly and in doing so rescue the one?

[DBMormon]

It is sometimes hard to tell. That is why I try to not call troll. However, it is sometimes necessary to confront some information.

Without calling the person names, by respecting them, and assuming they are just hurting inside, and continuing to answer the questions with solid info. Maybe even PM them and try to start a confidential dialogue.

[KevinG]

So that said, is it better to pile on 99 trollers and drive away the one honest person in crisis, or let the 99 drum you with their tone while you continue to answer kindly and in doing so rescue the one?

No it isn't. And my attitude is usually pretty cool towards anyone willing to post here. I save my harshest rejoinders for those who seem to be here to mock and spread doubt rather than genuinely seek answers. Sometimes tough love is called for- like when someone gets addicted to being in crisis. I really do try hard to accurately gauge someones intent, but I find the ones in crisis are not nearly as quick to scold others about their offensive response as the trolls. Go figure?

[Deborah]

I agree with you but I don't hear you complaining that someone didn't spoon feed you. What I hear is you lamenting that you didn't have more time to study, not blaming the church for not telling you.

Ha, ha! You are right! But then I didn't have the real desire to study anyway at that time.

[DavidB]

Good grief, if I know things now it's because I sought them out and read and studied. I certainly didn't wait to be spoon fed. Anyone can do the same thing. In fact I know many young people who have a great deal more knowledge than I do because they put in the effort to study.

This post like your others is just the same condecending attitude. Yes I suppose it is a lazy member who does not read volume six of History of theChurch to discover that Joseph Smith put up a good fight and that two people he shot died.

[DBMormon]

No it isn't. And my attitude is usually pretty cool towards anyone willing to post here. I save my harshest rejoinders for those who seem to be here to mock and spread doubt rather than genuinely seek answers. Sometimes tough love is called for- like when someone gets addicted to being in crisis. I really do try hard to accurately gauge someones intent, but I find the ones in crisis are not nearly as quick to scold others about their offensive response as the trolls. Go figure?

uncalled for.

How long does a faith crisis last? 1 day? 2 weeks? 6 months? 3 years?

What you may percieve as someone addicted to being in crisis may be one deep rooted crisis rather then multiple ones.

Anything else I say will be twisted and turned.... but let me say this

You can be sly and try to refer to me subliminally.... that's ok.

But you have it wrong.

- I had a major faith crisis 6 months ago. If that makes someone else here better then me... awesome

- It went away slowly, sometimes 1 step back before 2 steps forward

- I will always have the back of anyone I perceive as hurting or as a possible struggler. I will tell them when they are wrong. but will not attack them personally, as it does no good, especially in a public forum, where offense is so much easier to be taken.

So if you or anyone else tries to go ad hominem in any way, then my heart will allow me to do nothing else other then call you out... not because I disagree with you on the issue. But because I can't be convinced mocking someone who may be on th edge of leaving the church is ever a good thing

Edited September 15, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

This post like your others is just the same condecending attitude. Yes I suppose it is a lazy member who does not read volume six of History of theChurch to discover that Joseph Smith put up a good fight and that two people he shot died.

Where do you get that some of these people died? is that in the HOTC. I too thought there were wounded but no fatalities from the mob.

Edited September 15, 2012 by DBMormon

[DavidB]

Calmoriah, one reference I found to gun seems attributed to "On to Carthage to die", which I think was quoted in the New Era 1969.

[DavidB]

Where do you get that some of these people died? is that in the HOTC. I too thought there were wounded but no fatalities.

Going to work, will get the reference later.

[DBMormon]

I

Going to work, will get the reference later.

I'll have to check elder Oaks book " Carthage Conspiracy: The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith"

It should speak of it.

[Calm]

again many don't though. 70-80 % of the members I know who are worthy, have temple recommends and live serving God, do not take time to be aware of all the issues. Shame on them?.... maybe. I tend to think those who love to read, study, learn new info and won't quit till they get answers makes up a very small minority of the church, and world for that matter. Maybe all of us researchers and study'rs are the chosen ones..... maybe there are more important venues to spend one's energy then reading the intricate details of the council of 50. who knows

No one is criticizing them for not knowing something.

The criticism only starts when someone in their position starts blaming others for them not knowing when they could have known by studying just like those who do know.****

****This is addressed to those who live in the US and Canada who I know have access to material generally speaking, other countries may not be so fortunate in the past. If one knows English and has access to the Internet one can do research that way now as well, not all in other countries have that ability though.

[Calm]

This post like your others is just the same condecending attitude. Yes I suppose it is a lazy member who does not read volume six of History of theChurch to discover that Joseph Smith put up a good fight and that two people he shot died.

You need to keep digging a little deeper if that is what you think is the "real" history. Don't stop too soon.

Three were shot and wounded by three discharges (three misfired apparently), no one died but there were rumours that were believed by those out in Utah that they had.

Edited September 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[DavidB]

Where do you get that some of these people died? is that in the HOTC. I too thought there were wounded but no fatalities from the mob.

HOC VOL 7 CHAPTER 9

[Calm]

The HOC is wrong. My memory says a record was found of paying for new suits for them, maybe to go to court in or something. Don't need new suits for dead people usually. There was also other evidence, records of what they were doing later in their lives.

[Calm]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph_fired_a_gun

The critics' third attack is to insist that since Joseph fired his gun six times (only three shots discharged) and he hit two of the mobbers, he is a murderer.

Joseph's actions were clearly self-defense and defense of others under the common law. However, this point is moot since the attackers who were hit were not killed (as was first reported in some Church publications) but only wounded. They were alive and well at the trial held for mob leaders, and were identified by witnesses. Their good health allowed them to receive gifts because of their role in the assault on Joseph, Hyrum, and the other prisoners.

According to Dallin Oaks and Marvin Hill:

Wills, Voras, and Gallaher were probably named in the indictment because their wounds, which testimony showed were received at the jail, were irrefutable evidence that they had participated in the mob. They undoubtedly recognized their vulnerability and fled the county. A contemporary witness reported these three as saying that they were the first men at the jail, that one of them shot through the door killing Hyrum, that Joseph wounded all three with his pistol, and that Gallaher shot Joseph as he ran to the window.[Hay, "The Mormon Prophet's Tragedy," 675] According to Hay, Wills, whom the Mormon prophet had shot in the arm, was an Irishman who had joined the mob from “his congenital love of a brawl.”[statement of Jeremiah Willey, August 13, 1844, Brigham Young correspondence, Church Archives.] Gallaher was a young man from Mississippi who was shot in the face.[Hay, "The Mormon Prophet's Tragedy," 669, 675. Another source says Wills was a former Mormon elder who had left the Church. Davis, An Authentic Account, 24.] Hay described Voras (Voorhees) as a “half-grown hobbledehoy from Bear Creek” whom Joseph shot in the shoulder. The citizens of Green Plains were said to have given Gallaher and Voras new suits of clothes for their parts in the killing.[statement of Jeremiah Willey, August 13, 1844]

[5]

[why me]

This post like your others is just the same condecending attitude. Yes I suppose it is a lazy member who does not read volume six of History of theChurch to discover that Joseph Smith put up a good fight and that two people he shot died.

This is the third time that I am posting this. It is in the manual for all to read:

At 4:00 P.M.the guard at the jail was changed. Frank Worrell, who had threatened Joseph Smith earlier that morning, was then in charge. A few minutes after five, a mob of about one hundred men with blackened faces arrived in town and headed for the jail. The prisoners heard a scuffle downstairs followed by a shout for surrender and three or four shots. The Prophet and the others rushed to the door to fight off the assailants who had ascended the stairs and poked their guns through the half-closed door. John Taylor and Willard Richards attempted to deflect the muskets with their canes. A bullet fired through the panel of the door struck Hyrum in the left side of his face, and he fell, saying, “I am a dead man!” Joseph, leaning over Hyrum exclaimed, “Oh dear, brother Hyrum!” John Taylor said the look of sorrow he saw on Joseph’s face was forever imprinted on his mind. Joseph then stepped to the door, reached around the door casing, and discharged his six-shooter into the crowded hall. Only three of the six chambers fired, wounding three assailants.

http://www.lds.org/m...tyrdom?lang=eng

What more do you want? If you do not acknowledge this post, I will keep posting it as long as you claim that the church is hiding this part of its history. This is in the study manual. Read about church history. You can access it from the link. I also posted a link from the manual where it mentions that Joseph was a polygamist and that he was married to several women.

Edited September 15, 2012 by why me

[Tacenda]

Thanks for posting that a third time why me. I read it again but this time, something struck me. Joseph had just witnessed his dear Hyrum get shot in the face and then took the revolver and shot through the door. One can imagine the pain and anger he must have felt. Anyone would have done the same and tried to avenge a loved ones cold blooded murder.

[DavidB]

Why me , keep posting and I will continue to point out the serious flaw in your reasoning.

When was that manual published.

[Calm]

Why does that matter? The one before it, Barrett's has it too and that goes back to the 70s at least. I have a copy on my shelf and if you do a search on my name you will probably find a quote about it, I've posted it enough. Joseph's firing of the gun is mentioned on page 641, not going to type it up as I really need to get back to sleep. Copyright 1967. So pretty much anyone under the age of 65 had a chance to study it in CES.

Edited September 15, 2012 by calmoriah

[DBMormon]

Why me , keep posting and I will continue to point out the serious flaw in your reasoning.

When was that manual published.

David, Why does his having a gun, change the whole story. Is one man with a gun not a martyr when fighting off 30 people who want to kill him illegally for what he believes or practices?

The church doesn't hide this. I knew this as a convert. Again, this is such a small detail to make it a place where faith is lost in any degree.