Indulge Me Just A Little Please...

[cwald]

If your view is that the Church is false, then it isn't fixable.

Its also a whopping great act of disdain for the people who in the Church who believe in it, to try and wrest the institution away from them.

Resign and move on.

Church leaders are only human and do make mistakes. Even folks like BY made mistakes...it happens...and when it does, I think it is okay for members to say so and disagree with and discuss the issues without being called anti mormon or being asked to leave the church and move on.

Example --- I'm glad the folks who disagreed with BY about Adam God and Blood Atonement being taught in the temple, didn't just leave and join another church....I'm glad those problems were resolved and we no longer have to deal with them in the temple today.

[mfbukowski]

To repent, in the most fundamental meaning of the word, is to change course.

Given that, if I've drawn a conclusion based on an intellectual misunderstanding, I do have some repenting to do.

Technically you are kind of right. The "pent" part of repent comes from the French word "penser" meaning to "think".

So if you are speaking French, it means to "re-think". But in this context it just sounds judgmental to me, and I would still be ticked off!

[rpn]

What I wouldn't do is come to places like this and try to get faithful members to imagine apostatizing and being happy about it.

Edited July 16, 2012 by rpn

[Garden Girl]

I think it is okay for members to say so and disagree with and discuss the issues without being called anti mormon or being asked to leave the church and move on.

I agree cwald... those members who are having problems should be able to discuss them, and they do so here all the time. But Craig states that he is a non-believer, and is very happy as such... and yet he apparently feels the need to come here to criticize and starts numerous threads doing so...

GG

[wenglund]

I would kindly ask you just for a moment to imagine this one question: What if at some point in the future something changes...and some final straw breaks your "knowledge in Mormonism" (impossible you say...I'm sure...as I was once there myself) and you come to the conclusion that you were wrong....that the church is not what it claims to be. What then? What would you do? Remain in the church and try to fix it from within? Resign and move on? Hold signs at General Conference and try to drag your once fellow Mormons kicking and screaming from their own faith? Post threads on Pro-LDS sites?

If I somehow lost sight of what the Church is really all about and how it works, and began trusting in man instead of God, and focused on gospel irrelevancies and matters of little significance in the here-and-now, and consequently began to lose faith in the gospel/Church and thought it was wrong, then what I would do depends upon whether I was capable of self-criticism and accountability or not.

If I was, then I might reevaluate my own thoughts and actions to see if I may have been responsible for my own loss of faith--i.e. determine if I may have misunderstood what the Church was about and how it works, and trusted in the wrong people, and took my eye of Christ and becoming like him, and had my priorities upside-down, then I would repent and reorient myself in line with the gospel to see if then, as before, I progressed in the spirit as the gospel is intended.

However, if I wasn't capable of healthy self-criticism and was prone to shifting accountability, then I might waste my time and everyone else's by repeatedly sneering at and criticizing and complaining about the Church, ark-steadying what is no longer my business, and asking self-serving hypotheticals on LDS-related discussion boards, all the while in marked contrast claiming that I am very happy outside the Church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 17, 2012 by wenglund

[guerreiro9]

Craig,

If I chose to no longer believe the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ I would still remain a member, and derive as much good from the church as I could. This is an issue I have thought long about, and I'm glad you posed the question (even though it appears I may be in the minority).

My participation in the Church of Jesus Christ, regardless of whether its theology is correct, makes me a better person than I was previously. Participation in the Church encourages me to think about others more than about myself (I’m inherently selfish). It strengthens the relationship between my wife and I by encouraging us to put our spouse’s happiness before our own. It gives my children a strong moral foundation and puts them in situations where they can overcome a lot of the immaturity and self-centeredness that many of our youth suffer from.

I believe these are all qualities that I would still prize and seek after even if I no longer believed the theology.

There is also the social aspect which would be very hard to abandon. Leaving the church would cause great hurt to many loved ones, and I would remove myself from the association of many great people whom I would normally not associate with (I am an introvert by nature and participation in the Church helps me overcome that).

There is currently nothing in the Church from a non-theological standpoint that I can find any substantial disagreement with. Everything I have seen from the Church indicates that it is a group of people trying their hardest to make themselves and the world around them better. I can understand why someone would not believe the theology of the Church, some of it takes quite a leap of faith to believe. What I cannot understand is why the Church is portrayed as an “evil” organization that some are actively seeking to destroy. As I have mentioned I have seen nothing from the Church but an honest desire to improve mankind, which I think should still be apparent even if you do not believe the theology.

The only way I would remove myself from the Church is if I no longer believed the theology and I replaced it with an organization that provided a greater level of benefit to myself and my family. Currently I have found no such organization and more importantly I choose to believe.

[guerreiro9]

I apologize, I am not sure why the font size of my previous post is so small. I am new to the forum and am still discovering the quirks.

[KevinG]

Since God told me to join the Mormons it would take direct revelation from God to have me leave.

I don't see that happening.

[Glenn101]

Craig, you have received your indulgences, and didn't even have to pay for them. If I were to decide the church was not true, I would have to resign and move on. There is no way to fix that, as another poster opined. I would leave and leave it alone.

People who leave the church but will not leave it alone are not secure in their unbelief, generally speaking. (Unlicensed psychology)

Glenn

[cdowis]

When the Salamander Letter came out, I was in that situation. The whole thing made it logically impossible to believe that the church was true, so I asked myself, "What do I do now?"

1. As I have shared my story elsewhere, I knew through a miraculous and divine experience that the Gospel was true. The BOM was the word of God.

But my brain was telling me otherwise. How can I be true to myself.

2. I remembered a talk at BYU where the speaker was talking about the "shelf of disbelief". Faced with an impossible contradiction, the solution was simple. I put my doubt and questions on the shelf, and had confidence that someday I will find the answer.

3. Of course, that day came, and I was very happy that I did not throw away my salvation for a mess of pottage. This forger and murderer attempted to steal my testimony and I did not let it happen.

So, here I am.

Edited July 17, 2012 by cdowis

[Palerider]

I have (speaking from the non-believer point of view) a number of reasons why I don't "leave the Church alone".

1. I don't like being "shined on". I don't like seeing other people being "shined on" either. Therefore if an individual comes here asking why the truth or the complete story isn't being taught to them in church or in the established curriculum, I want them to know that that feeling they're getting in their heart isn't wrong. It's o.k. to feel the way they're feeling.

After reading and studying most of the apologetics here and elsewhere and finding them to be pretty sorry in general when looking at the big picture, I remain unconvinced that the church is being completely honest.

The judgemental approach and level of cynicism found here has unfortunately goaded me to respond in kind from time to time (which I can only blame myself for not being better). I truly admire Rob Bowman. so I understand why some of you may view me as being "anti" which I find a bit hilarious.

I've never seen (as so many of you like to paint things in black and white) the church as being an "evil organization". On the contrary I see it very much as most other religions as having some very good aspects and possesing a portion of the truth mixed with the philosophies and doctrines of men.

To state that someone who doesn't leave the church alone is insecure in their belief is just ridiculous.

I will always advance and encourage those things in the church that I have a spiritual witness are true and discourage and call out those things in the church that I have a spiritual witness are not true. And I will encourage members and non-members alike to do the same. We shouldn't have to live in fear of our own leadership. I would be just as straight-forward speaking with T. Monson as in speaking with anyone here (although I might curb my sarcasm as I would expect he would be on a different level than many here).

No man on this earth serves as intermediary between myself and the Savior and Heavenly Father. I put no trust in the arm of flesh.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Palerider

[teddyaware]

One of the reasons I believe so many former members -- like the individual who asked the question that started this thread -- leave the Church but can't leave it alone can be attributed to the fact that the Restored Gospel appeals too much to a thinking person's common sense, logic, reason and spirit of fairness. A loss of testimony that then necessitates the disaffected one to reject such appealing doctrines as continuous revelation (as it was all throughout biblical history), living apostles and prophets (needed in today's crazy world more than ever), wonderful and enlightening new scripture ( the astonishing Book of Mormon), degrees of glory (great appeal to reason and fairness), temples and sealing priesthood authority, eternal marriage, eternal families (the previous three, all shades of Adam and Eve prior to the fall), pre-earth life (we didn't just flare up as living souls at birth, but asked and very much desired to be born, knowing full-well what we might encounter while in living in mortality), the gospel peached to the dead (the epitome of fairness), the eventual eternal perfection of men and women (sitting upon God's throne as promised in the Book of Revelation), the establishment of Zion (a place of peace and refuge during the horrors, violence and tribulations prior to the second coming), and so on ...

These doctrines are truly beautiful and evince a God of true love, justice and mercy; they really make sense. So, perhaps, the apostate can't leave their former faith alone because it still quietlyappeals to his own sense of logic, reason and fairness. So they linger about the place of their formerly happy life, like the proverbial ghost of an earth life turned tragic, who cannot bring himself to leave and move beyond the locale of his sad demise. Perhaps this type of apostate is secretly hoping -- if only deep within his subconcious mind (spirit) -- for a return to that blessed season before their personal paradise was lost. Their heart of hearts may actually quietly hope for the arrival of a Latter Day Saint, endowed with the true spirit of revelation, spiritual knowledge and profound insight, who will ride to their rescue with arguments too powerful to ignore and deny.

Can you imagine how sad and unsettling it would be to go from believing the Gospel will be preached with love, power and authority to each and every living soul who ever lived upon the earth before the final judgement, only to willingly enter the world of doubt and uncertainty on this point held by the non-LDS sects? For me, following this dark path would be more painful and heartbreaking than words could ever hope to express.

[Aquilifer]

I would kindly ask you just for a moment to imagine this one question: What if at some point in the future something changes...and some final straw breaks your "knowledge in Mormonism" (impossible you say...I'm sure...as I was once there myself) and you come to the conclusion that you were wrong....that the church is not what it claims to be. What then? What would you do? Remain in the church and try to fix it from within? Resign and move on? Hold signs at General Conference and try to drag your once fellow Mormons kicking and screaming from their own faith? Post threads on Pro-LDS sites?

So indulge me a little…Suppose you somehow found yourself where I am today...a non-believer...what would you do? Really... I really want to know.

Me? I'd quietly leave, with or without my name still on the records. Having experienced a personal faith crisis and all that entails, I don't believe in hanging around to deliberately undermine other peoples' beliefs by convincing them that they're wrong. I have ethical issues with destroying another's faith; I only have stewardship over my own spiritual journey.

But I don't really get the question. Given the evident range of responses to losing a testimony -- ranging from raving anti-Mormons to articulate dissidents to snarky internet posters to 'New Order' types to people trying to regain testimonies to people who simply walk away without thinking twice about it to people who have a mix/all of the above -- I don't know how it's possible to know what one's response would be, nor useful to consider.

Take ownership of your own spiritual path without the justifications or affirmations of others.

[ERayR]

Me? I'd quietly leave, with or without my name still on the records. Having experienced a personal faith crisis and all that entails, I don't believe in hanging around to deliberately undermine other peoples' beliefs by convincing them that they're wrong. I have ethical issues with destroying another's faith; I only have stewardship over my own spiritual journey.

But I don't really get the question. Given the evident range of responses to losing a testimony -- ranging from raving anti-Mormons to articulate dissidents to snarky internet posters to 'New Order' types to people trying to regain testimonies to people who simply walk away without thinking twice about it to people who have a mix/all of the above -- I don't know how it's possible to know what one's response would be, nor useful to consider.

Take ownership of your own spiritual path without the justifications or affirmations of others.

It's Craig's way of trying to stir the hornets nest.

[DBMormon]

1) has the church gone astray in your scenario?

2.) Was it never true (no plates, no first vision) but Christ is real

3.) not true and Jesus isn't true either?

If #1 then I stay and pray for the Lord to right the ship

If #2 then I join a non affiliated Christian Church that is unconnected to any major Christian denominations and teaches Grace in a large measure but still recognizes a need for our effort.

#3 can't buy it.... too much has happened in my life... eat drink and be merry I guess

[Buzzard]

There is a saying in the hiking community: "Hike your own hike" It simply means there is not a bad or better way to hike. Some go fast, trying to cover as many miles as they can before heading back to the car or making camp, others prefer to wander among the wildflowers, taking pictures of every pretty bloom. Some go for a physical challenge, others to relax, and so on. So while we (me) consider some truths to be self-evident and manifestly obvious, both within the church and out, if your journey through life leads down different paths than mine, that's your business, and good luck to you.

But don't waste your time and mine telling me why going for the summit is better than having a snack and enjoying the view. Hike your own hike, and leave us to enjoy ours. Please.

[Sine Saw Square]

If i found myself convinced that my church was wrong I would go do something else. I don't understand why anyone would keep messing with a belief system they didn't think was true. I have way too many other hobbies and interests.

Since I answered your question, how about this hypothetical Craig: If you found yourself at some point convinced again that the truth claims of the Church were in fact right, would you seek to rejoin? Or would you fight such inclinations?

[guerreiro9]

Hello Palerider,

1. I don't like being "shined on". I don't like seeing other people being "shined on" either.

I've never seen (as so many of you like to paint things in black and white) the church as being an "evil organization".

Would you mind explaining the phrase "shined on"? I apologize, but it is not a phrase I am familiar with. I think I have an idea of the meaning given the context of the sentence it was placed in, but a clarification would aid in understanding your post. I also did a quick Google search and the phrase did not appear.

I was also wondering if your use of the phrase "evil organization" was in reply to my post since I used the same phrase? If you really have a more nuanced view of the Church and can see some good in the Church even though you choose not to believe then I think that speaks very highly of you.

Perhaps I have been reading too many articles on the internet of late, but I am very weary of the hatred and blindness shown by people on the opposing sides of issues. I think the anonymity afforded by the internet brings out the worst in people at times. I have read a number of articles over the last year (since Romney's "Mormon Moment" began) describing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is very rare to read any articles that are not either overtly positive or overtly negative, and it is even more difficult if you read the comment section. I have seen the Church of Jesus Christ described as evil more times than I can count, no I do not have any references at the moment, but I did a quick Google search for "Mormon Church Evil" and it returned 5,650,000 results.

The point of my previous post was that I think the Church of Jesus Christ is an organization that accomplishes much good in the world, and can be recognized as such even if you do not believe in the theology. I hope that we can all take a more nuanced view of people both inside and outside of the Church and not paint people and issues as being entirely black or white.

[BCSpace]

So indulge me a little…Suppose you somehow found yourself where I am today...a non-believer...what would you do? Really... I really want to know.

I would become an atheist. Since the LDS Church is at the pinnacle of all religions and specifically Christianity, if the LDS Church isn't true, then no religion is true and therefore God does not exist.

[Palerider]

It's Craig's way of trying to stir the hornets nest.

Ahhh...

And here I thought the guy was saying in essence, "I act this way because I feel betrayed by something that I dearly loved. Yes, I'm a little bit torqued about it and it comes through. How would you act if it were you? Wouldn't you have similar feelings?"

But the reality here on this board is that the wall of predjudice runs so high that no-one here can truly bring themselves to identify with what he's trying to ask. It's (in your minds) an impossible postion to assent to.

[Palerider]

Hello Palerider,

Would you mind explaining the phrase "shined on"? I apologize, but it is not a phrase I am familiar with. I think I have an idea of the meaning given the context of the sentence it was placed in, but a clarification would aid in understanding your post. I also did a quick Google search and the phrase did not appear.

I was also wondering if your use of the phrase "evil organization" was in reply to my post since I used the same phrase? If you really have a more nuanced view of the Church and can see some good in the Church even though you choose not to believe then I think that speaks very highly of you.

Perhaps I have been reading too many articles on the internet of late, but I am very weary of the hatred and blindness shown by people on the opposing sides of issues. I think the anonymity afforded by the internet brings out the worst in people at times. I have read a number of articles over the last year (since Romney's "Mormon Moment" began) describing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is very rare to read any articles that are not either overtly positive or overtly negative, and it is even more difficult if you read the comment section. I have seen the Church of Jesus Christ described as evil more times than I can count, no I do not have any references at the moment, but I did a quick Google search for "Mormon Church Evil" and it returned 5,650,000 results.

The point of my previous post was that I think the Church of Jesus Christ is an organization that accomplishes much good in the world, and can be recognized as such even if you do not believe in the theology. I hope that we can all take a more nuanced view of people both inside and outside of the Church and not paint people and issues as being entirely black or white.

Hello guerreiro,

I'm an old guy and in my youth someone who was telling fanciful stories (with little or no truth to them) was said to be "shining you on".

It would be silly for someone who has had any extended experience with the church to say there aren't some very good aspects that Mormonism shares with other Christian faiths. The emphasis on Christ and His atoning sacrifice, the teaching and keeping of the commandments of God. The traditional family as the central core of society, service to our fellow man, etc., etc. And they make some blow out the doors music as well. I love a lot of the Mo Tabs music.

But there are other aspects of Mormonism (which I prefer not to go into presently) that are every bit as wrong as the false doctrines they see as wrong in other faiths. They just feel that if they can explain it to someone enough times or in the right way that eventually the light's going to go on for that person and said person will have an "Ah Ha" moment, and everything will be swell in Zion.

It's just impossible for them to see that maybe.....just maybe....they're the ones that are in error. (Said in a whisper: Even though it's already happened numerous times in their church)

Edited July 17, 2012 by Palerider

[Palerider]

I would become an atheist. Since the LDS Church is at the pinnacle of all religions and specifically Christianity, if the LDS Church isn't true, then no religion is true and therefore God does not exist.

Kind of over dramatic don't you think...?

You couldn't see the possibility that maybe there was (as you teach) an apostacy and that the true church would finally be restored when Christ comes to reign on earth again?

Not even a little chance that this could happen...?

Would you give up on Christ that easily.....that completely?

[cwald]

Kind of over dramatic don't you think...?

Yeah. That was a sad and pathetic statement BC, IMO.

[guerreiro9]

Thanks Palerider!

I'm an old guy and in my youth someone who was telling fanciful stories (with little or no truth to them) was said to be "shining you on".

I'll refer to you as experienced (old is a state of mind ).

It would be silly for someone who has had any extended experience with the church to say there aren't some very good aspects that Mormonism shares with other Christian faiths. The emphasis on Christ and His atoning sacrifice, the teaching and keeping of the commandments of God. The traditional family as the central core of society, service to our fellow man, etc., etc. And they make some blow out the doors music as well. I love a lot of the Mo Tabs music.

Yes, unfortunately religion (and politics) tend to devolve into all or nothing exercises. It's very rare to hear someone critical of the Church also recognize some positive aspects. Thank you.

But there are other aspects of Mormonism (which I prefer not to go into presently) that are every bit as wrong as the false doctrines they see as wrong in other faiths. They just feel that if they can explain it to someone enough times or in the right way that eventually the light's going to go on for that person and said person will have an "Ah Ha" moment, and everything will be swell in Zion.

It's just impossible for them to see that maybe.....just maybe....they're the ones that are in error. (Said in a whisper: Even though it's already happened numerous times in their church)

It is definitely hard for members of the Church to accept that the unbelief in others is due to well thought out reasonable objections and spiritual conviction. It also equally hard for nonmembers of the Church to accept that the belief of most members is based upon well thought out reasonable explanations and spiritual conviction. I think it is easier and more common for both sides to see some inherent deficiency in the other side that is keeping them from coming to the same conclusions you did. Yes, members of the Church are persistent (even annoyingly so), but so are those who would dissuade those from becoming or remaining members.

I can understand why someone would choose not to believe in the Church of Jesus Christ, and I would hope that they would extend to me the same understanding.

[CASteinman]

I would kindly ask you just for a moment to imagine this one question: What if at some point in the future something changes...and some final straw breaks your "knowledge in Mormonism" (impossible you say...I'm sure...as I was once there myself) and you come to the conclusion that you were wrong....that the church is not what it claims to be. What then? What would you do? Remain in the church and try to fix it from within? Resign and move on? Hold signs at General Conference and try to drag your once fellow Mormons kicking and screaming from their own faith? Post threads on Pro-LDS sites?

So indulge me a little…Suppose you somehow found yourself where I am today...a non-believer...what would you do? Really... I really want to know.

For the record I will say that I am an extremely happy apostate...my life is amazing...and all of the so-called church claims that those who leave or are tossed out of the church become miserable and live pathetic lives...is just not true. This just has not been my experience nor that of those whom I personally know who have also left the church....to the contrary...we seem to flourish without the mental anguish of trying to make sense of Mormonism.

I would have to think very hard -- should I be agnostic or Catholic? I am not sure really which way it would go. It would be hard for me to believe in God, without Jesus and it would be hard for me to believe in Jesus without the Restoration. But I would have a desire to believe in God. So I don't know.

But I would simply move on and never look back. I would never work to convince a Mormon that they were wrong -- I would consider that to be evil.

I don't believe you are so happy as you claim.

Edited July 17, 2012 by CASteinman