mrmandias Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 I blame the parents.We can't just blame the parents. If the child's father and mother aren't teaching the doctrine, the sister wives should step in to make up the lack. 1
mrmandias Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 If there is no evidence, sorry archaelogical evidence, why are there bible tours, in fact I think Daniel Peterson would disagree on that point!Also, we have witnesses of Jesus Christ in the four gospels.And we have the Dead Sea Scrolls. What more do you need?Finally, you are judged on your works, but you are not saved by your works.Jerusalem exists and existed. That's pretty obvious. But remember that the Jews and the Romans all knew that Jerusalem existed but still rejected Christ. Why? Because Jerusalem existing doesn't prove any of the truth claims of Christianity. Likewise Joseph Smith, New York, the hill Cumorah, Missouri, and all those places exist too. But not everyone accepts Mormonism because those places existing doesn't prove Mormonism. As far as archaelogical proof goes, Mormon Christianity and Radio Preacher Christianity are on equal footing.The resurrection has the four gospels as witnesses, although many scholars would say that three of the gospels were just expansions of one prior gospel, and many scholars would say that they were written decades after Christ died and not necessarily by eyewitnesses. We have a lot more objective, third-party evidence about the witnesses of the gold plates (for example, that they existed) than we do about the witnesses for Christ's resurrection.I'm not responding to your Dead Seas scroll argument because I don't understand what you think they prove. 1
Calm Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 We can't just blame the parents. If the child's father and mother aren't teaching the doctrine, the sister wives should step in to make up the lack.
KevinG Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 We can't just blame the parents. If the child's father and mother aren't teaching the doctrine, the sister wives should step in to make up the lack. Well played sir!
Freedom Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 If there is no evidence, sorry archaelogical evidence, why are there bible tours, in fact I think Daniel Peterson would disagree on that point!You can also go on a Book of Mormon tour and a James Bond tour. Knowing where something took place and knowing it took place are too quite different animals. Also, we have witnesses of Jesus Christ in the four gospels.We have 11 witnesses of the gold plates and 15 living apostles who testify of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Can you prove that the writers of the 4 gospels were actually present or did they write down the events as they were reported to them? Or can you prove that these four men did not simply conspire to write an account of fictional events and pretend that they were real? I say the LDS witnesses are a stronger testimony. And we have the Dead Sea Scrolls. What more do you need?Are you aware that some christian scholars abandoned their religion when they read the scrolls? If I produced the original manuscripts for the Harry Potter novels, does this prove them to be true? The scrolls confirm what we already know, that many of the books of the old testament were written before the new testament. It does not prove they are true. Finally, you are judged on your works, but you are not saved by your works.This comments does not make sense. If I am saved to go to one heaven then what is the judgement for? If I'm saved, but the judgement proves that my works were evil, what happens? What about the scriptures that says you are saved by grace rather than by faith? is being saved the same as going to heaven? What does 'saved' mean? Are you aware that the bible never tells us? What about those who say and do not do as the lord commands? 1
volgadon Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 This is probably one of the main reasons why crowds of educated Mormons aren't fighting each other for the privilege of appearing on the show.http://walkstar.blogspot.com/2009/11/heart-of-matter.htmlhttp://walkstar.blogspot.com/2009/11/mccraney-strikes-back.html 4
Tacenda Posted July 6, 2012 Author Posted July 6, 2012 Thanks, why me. It isn't uncommon for review publications to have editors create the titles. My chief complaint with this title is that it has an entirely different feel to the review itself, and is thus jarring and distracting. Can't win them all.Tacenda, penny for your thoughts!http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?reviewed_author&vol=21&num=2&id=774 Well done! It took me awhile to get through the review, but well worth it. Especially because I haven't read his book. I thought it was very unbiased. I hadn't realised he wrote a paper for Sunstone. I guess it took him quite a few years to come out of mormonism. Now what about a review of his other book Mormonism A to Z? ;-)
Wiki Wonka Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) I haven't got any answers yet. Or am I up in the night? The reason I'm going around in circles is because I haven't received the answers. Show me where I have. Below I posted this. See what you think. I'm not anti, not at all, maybe a little dense sometimes.http://www.bible.ca/mor-questions.htmHow many of these questions put forth by this website could be answered by FAIR or any of you on this board? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but need answers and my whole life depends on it. Facts, not feelings right now.It is yet another list of questions posed by evangelicals designed to get Mormons to doubt their faith. FAIR responds to these types of lists all the time. Here are FAIR's responses to a few of the more popular lists. When I get a chance, I'll add responses to the one you linked above.Lists of questions from anti-Mormon ministriesCountercult ministries love to have people ask questions about us. Rather than being sincere attempts to understand Latter-day Saints, these questions are designed to provoke a response. Here are FAIR's responses to some of the more popular lists.58 Questions All Mormons Should Ask Themselves, (Contender Ministries)50 Questions to Ask Mormons, (Contender Ministries, Tower to Truth Ministries)15 contradictions in LDS scriptures, Many conservative Protestant critics have reproduced a table which purports to show how LDS scripture contradicts itself."Top 10 Things Jesus Would Say to Mormons", (Dr. Craig Bloomberg)Facts Mormons Won't Tell You When They Call at Your Door (Macgregor Ministries) Edited July 6, 2012 by Wiki Wonka 3
why me Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 If there is no evidence, sorry archaelogical evidence, why are there bible tours, in fact I think Daniel Peterson would disagree on that point!The writers of the new testament were aware of some aspects of geography. But why hasn't there been any other evidence that Christ did what he did? I would love to have first hand accounts from people who saw the events that took place in the new testament. But there are none. Instead we are left with a writing of the events several decades after they took place. But no supporting evidence has been found. Why?The bible takes faith and not evidence that god exists. As does the book of mormon. But taking together they can compliment each other and strengthen faith. At least that is how the lds put them both together. 1
why me Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 I guess it took him quite a few years to come out of mormonism. Now what about a review of his other book Mormonism A to Z? ;-)I think that you now have a good opportunity to write a review yourself. You don't need to write it on paper but to ask yourself questions as you read the book. And look up on FAIR or other mormon sources possible responses to him. And why did he write the book is a good question that any reader of a book should ask themselves. The answers to such a question can be a real eye opener.My answer: so his church can get more converts and publicity. I don't think that he wrote the book to save mormons at all. There are plenty of people that need saving out there...and mormons should not be such a high priority when we consider all the lost, sinful people out there who have lost their way.
ERayR Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 This is probably one of the main reasons why crowds of educated Mormons aren't fighting each other for the privilege of appearing on the show.http://walkstar.blog...-of-matter.htmlhttp://walkstar.blog...rikes-back.htmlSo much for civil discourse.
Libs Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 That would contravene, to some extent, the reason we came to earth and the purpose of the gospel--i.e. growth in faith. See: 2 Cor. 5 (particularly verse 7)As indicated previously, the only appropriate ways for you to determine if the Book of Mormon is of God, is to ask him (Moroni 10) and to put the precepts of the book to the test by living them (Alma 32).Thanks, -Wade Englund-I've heard this answer before, about the Book of Mormon, and other things that cannot be proven, except through the Spirit and faith. What was always perplexing, to me, was why God would send us from a place (the pre-existence) where we had sure knowledge of him and, probably, a lot of other things, to this place, with no remembrance of any of it...with a requirement to lean only on faith. I am not sure what purpose that is supposed to serve.As for the subject (Shawn McCraney), I can see why true scholars would not be interested. He is, as someone said, an entertainer. He is interesting, in a side show sort of way, but not someone I would take very seriously (at least, not his show).
Calm Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) I am not sure what purpose that is supposed to serveI've pretty much always thought it was so we could develop who we really are without being overpowered/overwhelmed by awareness of who he is. Edited July 6, 2012 by calmoriah
Storm Rider Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 I have watched several of the Heart of the Matter shows on bornagainmormon.com. Whether anyone would like to admit it or not he has had some affect on the LDS and has brought quite a few out of the church. Granted, LDS members that may have been like me, social in the church and not really into the doctrines etc. until some things come up, had no idea of JS's particular polygamy, are easily prusuaded.In his show he goes over and over on the born again commandment. That we should be born again on top of baptism at eight or whatever age. I'm, like my tag line says, a middle wayer. Do I jump the fence and go to his side of logic or do I stay LDS because that would be so much easier for my life. And LDS are my life! Some of the best people on this planet are mormon, help!!But...when he brings up the scripture...Matthew 19:29 And everyone that has forsaken houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Again a stumbling block.Also, as many on here have told me to do, to pray to get that witness, I then get the "not to trust my feelings" scripture as in Romans 10:17 - Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith does not come by feelings or by praying for emotional experiences. Again another stumbling block..Finally, to get to the gist of my post, Shawn McRaney said on the show that he's asked for Scott Gordon from FAIR to come on the show, or any scholar or apologist. And even commented he would leave the building and give the whole one hour show to the scholar, apologist or even better a GA.Would any of you please offer an answer as to why no one is showing up for this proposition of his?If people are out there watching the show and not seeing two sides, just his side, shouldn't someone be the apologist, defender of your faith. People like me (kind of weak) need you. Yet all we hear are birds chirping. Seeing & hearing may be a nice addition to just reading the words.Thank you sorry for the long post!Tacenda, I grew up around Mcraney's type of Christianity and it is the reason I am LDS. I know what it means to have an entertainer up in front of the congregation preaching hell fire and damnation and then the organist plays "Just As I Am". The whole thing is a set-up for emotional manipulation and the doctrine follows suit. No need to do anything, just believe in Christ and you are saved.The Church of Jesus Christ's teachings made sense to me. It helped me to understand who God was, why he created this world, what my purpose is, and what the afterlife offers us. No other church's doctrine come close to answering this questions so fully or truthfully. From Joseph to Thomas, every president of the church has been a man. Some have been weaker than others. Some have done great miracles while others have quietly served as the prophet of the Church. Do I shudder to learn that Paul of old killed Christians? Do I shudder that he fought with Peter and many other disciples? Do I shudder that some felt all needed to be Jews? Do I shudder that the apostles left the Jews, the chosen people, and focused on the gentiles? Exactly what standard will we use to judge God's instruments? Are we prepared to judge ourselves by that same standard? The reality is that we are every bit as much an instrument in God's hands as the prophet is; we serve in different capacities, but our two mites are worth just as much in the eyes of God.Why won't a GA, a scholar, an apologist go on a show with Mcraney? I would guess there are several reasons: it is not viewed as that important, there are more important matters to attend, for what purpose?As far as feelings go? I rejoice with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (See Luke 24:13-32)32 And they said one to another, Did not our aheart bburn within us, while he ctalked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?Anyone that ever tells you that feelings don't matter or are not the way to confirm truth, read this passage. In it you will learn that Jesus taught these two, they heard the word. What did the Word do to them? It made their hearts burn within them. Then go to Matt 16:13-17 when Jesus was talking to Peter, asking him who he thought he was? Peter responded that he was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon aBar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not brevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. How did God reveal this truth to Peter? That is right, he touched his heart with the Spirit so that Peter knew it was true; Jesus was the Christ. These scriptures are ignored by this type of preacher because it does not fit with their doctrine; feelings become too important. The Holy Spirit becomes too active in the lives of humanity. They want the Holy Spirit, but onlly in as much as it fits their specific belief. The moment the Spirit leads people to truth, then it must be cast out, set away, demeaned; after all, the Holy Ghost does not teach or reveal truth. God does not answer questions; he does not cause one's heart to burn within them. 4
Libs Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 I've pretty much always thought it was so we could develop who we really are without being overpowered/overwhelmed by awareness of who he is.Thanks, Calmoriah. I donno. Maybe...
Tacenda Posted July 6, 2012 Author Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) Tacenda, I grew up around Mcraney's type of Christianity and it is the reason I am LDS. I know what it means to have an entertainer up in front of the congregation preaching hell fire and damnation and then the organist plays "Just As I Am". The whole thing is a set-up for emotional manipulation and the doctrine follows suit. No need to do anything, just believe in Christ and you are saved.The Church of Jesus Christ's teachings made sense to me. It helped me to understand who God was, why he created this world, what my purpose is, and what the afterlife offers us. No other church's doctrine come close to answering this questions so fully or truthfully. From Joseph to Thomas, every president of the church has been a man. Some have been weaker than others. Some have done great miracles while others have quietly served as the prophet of the Church. Do I shudder to learn that Paul of old killed Christians? Do I shudder that he fought with Peter and many other disciples? Do I shudder that some felt all needed to be Jews? Do I shudder that the apostles left the Jews, the chosen people, and focused on the gentiles? Exactly what standard will we use to judge God's instruments? Are we prepared to judge ourselves by that same standard? The reality is that we are every bit as much an instrument in God's hands as the prophet is; we serve in different capacities, but our two mites are worth just as much in the eyes of God.Why won't a GA, a scholar, an apologist go on a show with Mcraney? I would guess there are several reasons: it is not viewed as that important, there are more important matters to attend, for what purpose?As far as feelings go? I rejoice with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (See Luke 24:13-32)32 And they said one to another, Did not our aheart bburn within us, while he ctalked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?Anyone that ever tells you that feelings don't matter or are not the way to confirm truth, read this passage. In it you will learn that Jesus taught these two, they heard the word. What did the Word do to them? It made their hearts burn within them. Then go to Matt 16:13-17 when Jesus was talking to Peter, asking him who he thought he was? Peter responded that he was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon aBar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not brevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. How did God reveal this truth to Peter? That is right, he touched his heart with the Spirit so that Peter knew it was true; Jesus was the Christ. These scriptures are ignored by this type of preacher because it does not fit with their doctrine; feelings become too important. The Holy Spirit becomes too active in the lives of humanity. They want the Holy Spirit, but onlly in as much as it fits their specific belief. The moment the Spirit leads people to truth, then it must be cast out, set away, demeaned; after all, the Holy Ghost does not teach or reveal truth. God does not answer questions; he does not cause one's heart to burn within them. Thanks for your words, they hit home alot. I have heard some hell & damnation sermons on TV. Definately not for me, otoh I think some of my ward's sacrament meetings leave alot to be desired. I guess my feelings do matter and I appreciate the scripture you provided. I need to probably do as we're always told, read the scriptures and pray about it. I had no idea that so many on here go after the lost like this, I'm very touched by it. Edited July 6, 2012 by Tacenda 1
Bob Crockett Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) Wow. So does the Book of mormon plagiarize Viw of the Hebrews? What parts, prithee?That is not my argument nor my view. Not even remotely so. Why bother?Simply, it is simply wrong to argue that the Book of Mormon did not use material from View of the Hebrews simply because of the differences.It is akin to saying that Jesus did not quote from the OT because the NT is different. Edited July 6, 2012 by Bob Crockett
Deborah Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 I watched Shawn once; he was on one of those local channels that show strange things. What can I say. I'm confused why anyone would think he has anything of value to offer and it certainly would be a step down for any legitimate scholar to "debate" with him.
wenglund Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 I've heard this answer before, about the Book of Mormon, and other things that cannot be proven, except through the Spirit and faith. What was always perplexing, to me, was why God would send us from a place (the pre-existence) where we had sure knowledge of him and, probably, a lot of other things, to this place, with no remembrance of any of it...with a requirement to lean only on faith. I am not sure what purpose that is supposed to serve.This is an excellent question, and one to which I am not sure I can do justice. In our relatively ignorant and finite state, I don't know that we can fully understand all the reasons.Be that as it may, I figure there are several ways faith enables us to comprehend things in greater depth and breadth than were we to walk by sight.For one, it is a condition that allows for the opposition that is needed in all things. (see 2 Ne. 2--starting with verse 10). When we are removed from the presence of God's love, and prevented from see or remembering what that was like, and exposed to pain and sorrow, the contrast enables us to grow in understanding of pain and sorrow, and better understand God's love as we grow spiritually and thus grow in God's love.Faith is also an excellent epistemic devise that somewhat forces us to work things out in our minds and to not take things for granted. By removing us from God's presence, and preventing us from seeing him and directly observing him, and from an environment where knowledge of him comes easy, and perhaps so easy that it may be taken for granted, we are then caused to learn about God through arduous struggle, which struggle tends to incline us to go beyond the more obvious observations and flesh out the subtle nuances and details and better appreciate what we have learned. I don't know about anyone else, but the things that I learned best in school, and the things I am able to retain more than others, are things like playing musical instruments, physics, and statistics, that I really had to work at to receive even a passing grade.Besides, there are some things that can't be learned through instruction, but must be experienced. A person may be taught how to parent. However, unless or until they have become a parent, and experience parental things, they can't really know fully what it means and is like to be a good parent. The condition of faith and mortality enable us to learn about the divine through experience.These are just some of my thoughts. The Lectures on Faith may also provide some insights.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 This is probably one of the main reasons why crowds of educated Mormons aren't fighting each other for the privilege of appearing on the show.http://walkstar.blog...-of-matter.htmlhttp://walkstar.blog...rikes-back.htmlThis is worth repeating. Walker has already gone on his show. See from a first hand experience how worthless it was to go on.
Bernard Gui Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 There once was an ant floating down the Mississippi River on a maple leave shouting,"Raise the drawbridge! Raise the drawbridge!" 1
Tacenda Posted July 6, 2012 Author Posted July 6, 2012 This is worth repeating. Walker has already gone on his show. See from a first hand experience how worthless it was to go on.Yes, he has gone on the show by telephone, maybe this is something for scholars on here to think about doing. He can always hang up on you if he feels flustered. He does ask that his callers be LDS only callers, so most of you qualify.
Deborah Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 Yes, he has gone on the show by telephone, maybe this is something for scholars on here to think about doing. He can always hang up on you if he feels flustered. He does ask that his callers be LDS only callers, so most of you qualify.Did you not get the point that it is pointless to call into his show. He doesn't want a discussion; he wants a chance to show his "superior" reasoning.
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