Mormon College Prof: "I'M A Mormon, Not A Christian"

[smac97]

Here:

THANKS to Mitt Romney, a Broadway hit and a relentless marketing campaign by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormons seem to be everywhere.

This is the so-called Mormon Moment: a strange convergence of developments offering Mormons hope that the Christian nation that persecuted, banished or killed them in the 19th century will finally love them as fellow Christians.

I want to be on record about this. I’m about as genuine a Mormon as you’ll find — a templegoer with a Utah pedigree and an administrative position in a congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am also emphatically not a Christian.

For the curious, the dispute can be reduced to Jesus. Mormons assert that because they believe Jesus is divine, they are Christians by default. Christians respond that because Mormons don’t believe — in accordance with the Nicene Creed promulgated in the fourth century — that Jesus is also the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Jesus that Mormons have in mind is someone else altogether. The Mormon reaction is incredulity. The Christian retort is exasperation. Rinse and repeat.

I am confident that I am not the only person — Mormon or Christian — who has had enough of the acrimonious niggling from both sides over the nature of the trinity, the authority of the creeds, the significance of grace and works, the union of Christ’s divinity and humanity, and the real color of God’s underwear. I’m perfectly happy not being a Christian. My Mormon fellows, most of whom will argue earnestly for their Christian legitimacy, will scream bloody murder that I don’t represent them. I don’t. They don’t represent me, either.

I’m with Harry Emerson Fos****, the liberal Protestant minister and former pastor of Riverside Church in Manhattan, who wrote that he would be “ashamed to live in this generation and not be a heretic.”

Huh? How does being a heretical (perhaps a better word would be nontraditional) Christian square with disclaiming the label of "Christian" altogether?

I also wonder how the author squares his rejection of the designation of "Christian" with Alma 46, Alma 48, Acts 11, and 1 Peter 4, all of which refer to followers of Christ as "Christians."

I agree that the debate over who is Christian and who is not is frequently dumb, but so is ceding the argument altogether.

Being a Christian so often involves such boorish and meanspirited behavior that I marvel that any of my Mormon colleagues are so eager to join the fold.

Wow. More dumbness. Christianity has done tremendous good in the world. The author seriously distorts and defames Christianity as a whole in this characterization.

In fact, I rather agree with Richard D. Land, the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, who calls Mormonism a fourth Abrahamic religion, along with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Being set apart from Christianity in this way could give Mormonism a chance to fashion its own legacy.

Excluding ourselves from the branch of Abrahamic religions which professes, as its central tenet, faith in Jesus Christ is not a good idea.

We are not traditional Christians. We are not Protestant or Catholic Christians. We are not found within the ambit of "historical" Christianity as that term is generally understood. But does that mean we are not Christian at all? Of course not.

Christianity, you’ll recall, had to fight the same battle. Many early Christians grew up reading the Torah, living the law, observing the Sabbath and thinking of themselves as Jews. They were aghast to find that traditional Judaism regarded them as something else entirely.

In addition, these Christians had to defend their use of additional scripture and their unconventional conception of God and explain why they were following a bumpkin carpenter from some obscure backwater. Early Christianity’s relationship with non-Jews was even worse. Roman writers frequently alluded to rumors about the cannibalistic and hedonistic elements of early Christian rites. One after the other, Christians went to the lions because they found it impossible to defend themselves against such outrageous accusations. They did eat flesh and drink blood every Sunday, after all.

Eventually, Christianity grew up and conceded that it wasn’t authentic Judaism. Lo and behold, once it had given up its claim to Judaism, it became a state religion — cannibalism notwithstanding — and spent the next 1,700 years getting back at all the bullies who had slighted it when it was a child.

I'd like to see a serious discussion of this topic from the author. This ain't it.

Eventually, Mormonism will grow up. Maybe a Mormon in the White House will hasten that moment when Mormonism will no longer plead through billboards and sappy radio ads to be liked, though I suspect that Mr. Romney is such a typical politician that, should he occupy the Oval Office, he’ll studiously avoid the appearance of being anything but a WASP. This could set back the cause of Mormon identity by decades.

I don't think the Church's missionary and PR efforts are intended for us "to be liked," except insofar as dislike or lack of familiarity with us impedes our obligations relative to the Great Commission.

Whatever happens in November, I hope Mormonism eventually realizes that it doesn’t need Christianity’s approval and will get big and beat up all the imperious Christians who tormented it when it was small, weird and painfully self-conscious. Mormons are certainly Christian enough to know how to spitefully abuse their power.

David V. Mason, an associate professor of theater at Rhodes College, is the author of “Theatre and Religion on Krishna’s Stage: Performing in Vrindavan” and “My Mormonism: A Primer for Non-Mormons and Mormons, Alike.”

Whacked. The author isn't doing us any favors with this crap.

-Smac

Edited June 13, 2012 by smac97

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I’m about as genuine a Mormon as you’ll find — a templegoer with a Utah pedigree and an administrative position in a congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Alert, alert, alert.

Sorry but I have red flags going up here. Experience has taught me that most members don't talk like this but that of the apostate or ex-member.

[Yep]

I agree, in a manner of speaking, with the author. If being a Christian is perceived as beleiving the same ideology and theology espoused by many Christians then I would not want the label.

I do however believe that we are currently at a time similar to that of the time of Christ. At that time Christ stated that those who professed to be followers of God, but were not actually following the spirit of the Gospel, were not actually followers and that even those who were not jewish were closer to following God than they. Many of "God's chosen People" told Christians that they were not a part of God's religion. Christians aren't supposed to make judgements like this. We may not be considered by many "Christians" to be Christian, but I'm fine with the "Christians" telling me I'm not one of them, I think I'm in good company given that this is similar to how Christ and his New Testament followers were treated.

I am a Christian and will be forever, regardless of what the popular belief is as to what that is.

[bluebell]

I said this already in the "In the News" forum where this article is also being discussed, but i'll say it again so that people will understand why it matters to me that people realize I'm a Christian-

It matters to me that people realize that my religion believes that Jesus is the Son of God, believes in the Atonement, and that members believe Jesus is our Savior. It's important that they know all of those things so that when they have an opportunity to learn about the church, they won't automatically reject it, thinking that it's incompatible with anyone who has a testimony of Christ.

That's why i want people to recognize that mormons are Christians.

That's also why i think this man is off base. If it didn't matter what others thought of me or the church, then that might be one thing, but the truth is that mormons believe very strongly in missionary work and in missionary work, what nonmembers think about you is important

[Storm Rider]

When someone states that LDS are not Christians my heckles go. I resent any individual that attempts to describe LDS as NOT being followers of Jesus. However, what is typical meant by the term Christian is a follower of 4th century Christian doctrines....and a follower of Jesus Christ. This compulsion to demand that someone not only be a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, but also a believer in a specific set of doctrines that none of the first apostles, disciples, or followers of Jesus adhered to is the crux of the problem. Jesus' teachings had little to do with doctrines and everything to do with the heart of the individual and his/her actions.

If we cannot be identified as disciples of Jesus Christ by our actions then being called Christians is meaningless. This standard is just as applicable to every other individual that claims to be a Christian. It may be time to ignore the words of the horde and focus solely on the glory of God. From that ilk we have nothing to fear for their actions tell us their Master has nothing in common with our own.

[zerinus]

The "Mormons are not Christian" argument is a defence mechanism that the false churches employ against the Mormon doctrine of the Apostasy. The LDS doctrines of Apostasy/Restoration is extremely hard against the false churches because it pulls the rug completely from under them, and renders then defunct and redundant. They have invented the "Mormons are not Christian" argument as a defence mechanism against that. The answer to it is not to concede the argument, but to remind them of the Appstasy, of which they are a part--the implication being that the LDS Church is in fact the only truly Christian one around, while they are counterfeits.

[Maureen]

Christians respond that because Mormons don’t believe — in accordance with the Nicene Creed promulgated in the fourth century — that Jesus is also the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Jesus that Mormons have in mind is someone else altogether.

Professor Mason did not do his homework very well. Neither Mainstream Christianity or the Nicene Creed states that Jesus is the Father or Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity are distinct from each other. I don't give this Professor much credibility just from that sloppy statement.

M.

[The Nehor]

Professor Mason did not do his homework very well. Neither Mainstream Christianity or the Nicene Creed states that Jesus is the Father or Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity are distinct from each other. I don't give this Professor much credibility just from that sloppy statement.

M.

I scrolled down to see what he was a professor of first and he lost all credibility before I got to that.

[Calm]

Professor Mason did not do his homework very well. Neither Mainstream Christianity or the Nicene Creed states that Jesus is the Father or Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity are distinct from each other. I don't give this Professor much credibility just from that sloppy statement.

M.

Unfortunately not the first LDS who think Mainstream Christianity is mainly modalism.

[Flyonthewall]

Was Jesus Jewish? or Christian?

I would say that if you asked Jesus that question during His mortal ministry, He would have said He was Jewish.

Even the Gentiles thought Christianity was simply a Jewish sect.

However, Jews rejected Him and felt the need to differentiate between them and Jesus.

So....this new Jewish sect was the correct way but was rejected by the old Jewish...sect... which felt the need to kick them out of the places of worship...to alienate them from being Jewish.

Hmmm...can parallels be drawn...

[The Nehor]

Was Jesus Jewish? or Christian?

The word Christian didn't exist. I suspect he would have said he was the Son of God. Such distinctions probably don't apply to him. It would probably not be unfair to say that his faith was unique among everyone who lived on the earth due to his insistence on distinguishing his faith from those of his followers "your God and my God".

[Anti-NOMunistJackMormon]

Frankly I don't care anymore, I believe in God and Christ and that's enough for me. You're never going to change the mind of those who make a big deal of the Nicean Creed, you never will.

If the church lost converts oh well and so be it. The church would be better focusing it's efforts on the church that we already have and growing families that are already in the church. Strong oaks produce mighty saplings that become stong oaks. Those that will seek will find. The strongest missionary tool is the slow, unpressured, and gentle persuasion of the good example and service to others.

A bishop whom I loved when I was still active stated "It's quality. Not quantity" to some of the missionaries in our ward who were pulling anyone with a pulse of the street to be baptized. It was something I always admired about him.

[Tacenda]

Frankly I don't care anymore, I believe in God and Christ and that's enough for me. You're never going to change the mind of those who make a big deal of the Nicean Creed, you never will.

If the church lost converts oh well and so be it. The church would be better focusing it's efforts on the church that we already have and growing families that are already in the church. Strong oaks produce mighty saplings that become stong oaks. Those that will seek will find. The strongest missionary tool is the slow, unpressured, and gentle persuasion of the good example and service to others.

A bishop whom I loved when I was still active stated "It's quality. Not quantity" to some of the missionaries in our ward who were pulling anyone with a pulse of the street to be baptized. It was something I always admired about him.

I agree with your statement. I'd like to add to it with this, that some people believe we're not Christian for trying to pull actual Christians from their religions. Just like JW's do. Maybe if we left them alone and only desired to baptise people into a belief of Jesus Christ then they wouldn't have a problem. Also, they get pretty sick of hearing that Jesus isn't God in the flesh but our brother. And that makes Satan and Jesus brother's. So I can see where they are coming from.

[Flyonthewall]

The word Christian didn't exist. I suspect he would have said he was the Son of God. Such distinctions probably don't apply to him. It would probably not be unfair to say that his faith was unique among everyone who lived on the earth due to his insistence on distinguishing his faith from those of his followers "your God and my God".

Of course the term "Christian" most likely did not exist until after Jesus' ministry was over, but neither did the term "Mormon" exist when our faith was established.

Both were terms invented or coined to differentiate one group from another.

[Flyonthewall]

I agree with your statement. I'd like to add to it with this, that some people believe we're not Christian for trying to pull actual Christians from their religions. Just like JW's do. Maybe if we left them alone and only desired to baptise people into a belief of Jesus Christ then they wouldn't have a problem. Also, they get pretty sick of hearing that Jesus isn't God in the flesh but our brother. And that makes Satan and Jesus brother's. So I can see where they are coming from.

Uhm...Do we say that Jesus isn't God? Jesus being our brother is not mutuallly exclusive to Him being God. We have always identified Jesus as being God The Son. Both Satan and Jesus being children of God The Father make them brothers, not us saying Jesus isn't God in the flesh(which we don't).

[Robert F. Smith]

Whacked. The author isn't doing us any favors with this crap.

-Smac

Hey Smac,

Thanks for calling this op-ed to my attention. It gave me a lot of laughs.

You're putting me on with your serious responses, right?! I mean, you did get it that this professor of theater was giving us a version of wrestling smackdown? You're not one of those guys who actually takes such tripe seriously are you?

[cdowis]

I also wonder how the author squares his rejection of the designation of "Christian" with Alma 46, Alma 48, Acts 11, and 1 Peter 4, all of which refer to followers of Christ as "Christians."

"I’m perfectly happy not being a Christian."

He does not read the scriptures, he does not partake of the sacrament where we take upon ourselves the name of Christ, he does not sing the hymns which worship Christ.

OK, he is not Christian, and if he claims to be Mormon, it is not with the LDS church.

"Eventually, Mormonism will grow up."

Thanks, but we are Christians and don't need advice from someone who is ashamed to take on the name of Christ.

Edited June 17, 2012 by cdowis

[Bikeemikey]

"I’m perfectly happy not being a Christian."

He does not read the scriptures, he does not partake of the sacrament where we take upon ourselves the name of Christ, he does not sing the hymns which worship Christ.

OK, he is not Christian, and if he claims to be Mormon, it is not with the LDS church.

"Eventually, Mormonism will grow up."

Thanks, but we are Christians and don't need advice from someone who is ashamed to take on the name of Christ.

cdowis,

One does not have to forsake Christ, Covenants, Sacrament or anything else if they say I don't want to be be called Christian.

I don't agree with the arguments this guy has provided or the reasoning he uses to determine he does not want to be called Christian, however, as a fully active LDS member (full tithe payer, calling holder etc etc) I couldn't care less if I am called Christian.

However, I would really be unhappy with someone thought I was Christian and failed to understand that I was also Mormon.

Mormon christianity is different from traditional Christianity. Are we both Christian in the sense we believe in Christ, sure we are. I would rather be understand for the unique restored beliefs of the restored gospel, even if I have to call it something other than Christian in order to explain what I am.

I don't want my unique LDS beliefs to be lost in the nether-definition of "Christian". All "Christian" means is I believe in a guy names Jesus Christ. That is not sufficient to explain my beliefs.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Bikeemikey

[cdowis]

cdowis,

One does not have to forsake Christ, Covenants, Sacrament or anything else if they say I don't want to be be called Christian.

Read what he actually said.

I don't agree with the arguments this guy has provided or the reasoning he uses to determine he does not want to be called Christian, however, as a fully active LDS member (full tithe payer, calling holder etc etc) I couldn't care less if I am called Christian.

Read what he actually said. "I am also emphatically not a Christian

..... I’m perfectly happy not being a Christian. My Mormon fellows, most of whom will argue earnestly for their Christian legitimacy, will scream bloody murder that I don’t represent them. I don’t. They don’t represent me, either."

He has clearly abandoned the covenant taken at baptism and renewed at sacrament. He freely admits that he does not represent the church position and that that the church should "grow up". He is declaring himself free from church teachings.

Edited June 17, 2012 by cdowis

[Bikeemikey]

Cdowis,

I agree with him, albeit for different reasons. Yet I have not forsaken my covenants or declared my self free from Church teachings.

You have read extremism into some very basic statements.

I am personally not a Christian, I am a Mormon. I am totally happy not being called Christian, in fact I would prefer it. Based on the way the word Christian is currently used I am emphatically not a Christian. I dont see any issues with these statements, they are not extreme. Of course he does not represent the Church. As for abandoning covenants, that is totally absurd. Stop being such an extremist.

One can fully take on them the name of Christ with out wanting to be called Christian. Your failure to see that is scary.

[cdowis]

May I suggest that you read the sacrament prayer, and becme aware of the covenant that you are taking partaking of the sacrament. Your argument is certainly not with me. I am merely repeating, and QUOTING your own statements.

Since you responding to me personally, this is an issue between you and the Lord, and none of my business. I really don't care except your statement is an embarrassment to the LDS church. At least you freely admit that your position does not represent the LDS church and the LDS does not represent your position. Congratulations on your frankness.

I have put you on ignore and have no interest in this conversation.

[zerinus]

I don't agree with the arguments this guy has provided or the reasoning he uses to determine he does not want to be called Christian, however, as a fully active LDS member (full tithe payer, calling holder etc etc) I couldn't care less if I am called Christian.

I do object though when they tell me that I am not a Christian. Do you know what the implication of that is, when they tell you that you are not a Christian?

[Bikeemikey]

I do object though when they tell me that I am not a Christian. Do you know what the implication of that is, when they tell you that you are not a Christian?

I think that is a good question, what is the implication? Zerinus, what do you think the implication is?

People can tell me i am not a Christian, they can't tell me I'm do not believe in Christ. We do not have to be called Christian to believe in Christ.

[Bikeemikey]

May I suggest that you read the sacrament prayer, and becme aware of the covenant that you are taking partaking of the sacrament. Your argument is certainly not with me. I am merely repeating, and QUOTING your own statements.

Since you responding to me personally, this is an issue between you and the Lord, and none of my business. I really don't care except your statement is an embarrassment to the LDS church. At least you freely admit that your position does not represent the LDS church and the LDS does not represent your position. Congratulations on your frankness.

I have put you on ignore and have no interest in this conversation.

Who are you talking to? You list off a lot of to dos for me, obviously with the assumption I am not doing them. We obviously just have a different opinion on this matter.

I am still flummoxed by what I consider to be an extreme response by cdowis to this thread. Is there really a strong belief that if cant/won't/don't call ourselves Christian that we Mormons have lost some kind of rights to Christ? That's what it sounds like.

[zerinus]

I think that is a good question, what is the implication? Zerinus, what do you think the implication is?

I am asking you. What do you think it means?

People can tell me i am not a Christian, they can't tell me I'm do not believe in Christ. We do not have to be called Christian to believe in Christ.

Why can't they? Don't you think they they tell you that you are not a Christian, it means the same thing?