zerinus Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 You are waffling again, and talking a lot of bull in the process.I agree with everything you are saying. Mormons don't think they are the only Christians, we value truth in other faiths. We are actually quite inclusive for a chrich that claims our unique divinity.Try to get this straight first: Mormons have (or should have) no objections to be called Mormons.Do I think I am Christian - absolutely.You are asking the wrong question again. I am not in a hurry to call myself a Christian. I am quite happy to be called a Mormon. The question is, What motivates certain people to call me not a Christian? Is it done with malicious intent, or is it entirely harmless? And if it is done with malicious intent, what is the best way of meeting that challenge? I believe that I can confidently determine that it is done with malicious intent; and the best way to meet that challenge is not to agree with my assailant that I am not a Christian.It is however exhausting when Mormons can't understand why other Christians don't agree.I believe that you are the one who does not understand why other “Christians” don’t want to call us Christians. Either that, or else you are deliberately burying your head in the sand, or worse still, you are in cahoots with those who are seeking to destroy the Church.If you meet me on the street and after a little bit of conversation and a coffee/hot chocolate . . .Remind me what the coffee tastes like. I haven’t tried it for years. I have forgotten the taste of it now. I could do with a reminder.. . . I told you I was Christian then proceeded to say: "so this guy names Jesus, his dad zapped him to earth with his teleportation device, you see they can do that because they are super advanced aliens with these awesome bodies that don't age, well any way Jesus figured out that if he came to earth and did this special kind of dying trick that the bad stuff I do would be ok, but actually I do bad stuff because Jesus has this brother and they had this giant death match in heaven which is this planet they live on called tron, so Jesus has this powerful hammer and him and Satan had a massive rumble and their dad said that Jesus plan was better so they used this special hammer power and banished Satan - but you see Satan he came to earth and made us to bad things. And you see we weren't "made/created" by god, we existed with him in the beginning and he is using the fight between his sons, Jesus and Satan to help us become better so we can move to his planet get these super powerful bodies and fly spaceships around the universe making planets.So anyway while Jesus was visiting he changed his name to Christ and then did his special dying trick to make the universe ok with the bad stuff I do.So the I am a Christian because I believe in that space alien Jesus. Then you tell him you are Christian to and he says wow man that's awesome. I am saving up for a spaceship to visit gods planet, want to pitch in 10% of your annual income and get it built faster.If that is the kind of “Mormon Jesus” you believe in, then you go to a different church than I do. The Jesus I worship is the Jesus of the Bible. Not sure about you though.I have so many good traditional Christian friends. That is what my Mormon religion sounds like to them, still even now after years of conversation.I am sure you do have a lot of good traditional “Christian” friends; but you do not appear to have too many Mormons ones. I suggest that you make some good Mormon friends as well, and ask them to explain to you what kind of Jesus they believe in.I think we need to cut the traditional Christians some slack and understand why we may not seem so Christian from where they sit.Except that those whom you are pleased to call “traditions Christians” are called by the Lord by a different name. The Book of Mormon refers to them in these terms:2 Nephi 10:13 And he that fighteth against Zion shall perish, saith God.16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.17 For I will fulfil my promises which I have made unto the children of men, that I will do unto them while they are in the flesh—2 Nephi 29:3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. . . .3 Nephi 29:5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!Mormon 8:28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?D&C 10:56 But it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments but build up churches unto themselves to get gain, yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily, I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the center.I agree with what the Lord has told me about them, not what you want to tell me about them.
Bikeemikey Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Zerinus,I am not sure you have understood what I am trying say. Let me try again here.At the end of your post (#51) you have cited many of the common Mormon scriptures explaining why traditional/mainstream Christianity (the Churches around when Joseph Smith restored the LDS church and now days the Churches that have come out of those) are actually false churches.At other places on this thread you have claimed that Mormons do not claim that other mainstream Christian churches are false Churches. Rather you have claimed that we are all brothers in Christ, Mormons and all mainstream Christians alike?Which is it? You have confused be by claiming both at different times? Or is it the case that only Christian Churches who accept Mormonism as Christian are our brothers in Christ.Furthermore, you have consistently claimed that their is no legitimate reason Mainstream Christians would want to deny Mormons the title of Christian. The only reason would be malicious intent. I just don't agree with this statement.Our Church protects the terms "Mormon" and "LDS" in an effort to make sure that groups with beliefs that are very similar to ours on many levels, but fundamentally different on others, are not considered, called or use the terms Mormon or LDS. I support and encourage the Church in this effort. I do not have malicious intent or other satan motivated reasons for doing this other than an interest in protecting a term I fell I am allowed to define.There is a mainstream Christian community feels they have they have the right to define who and what is Christian. In am attempt to do this they have actively attempted to educate people that Mormons are not Christian. This is their right. For some it may be malicious. For others it is just doing what our Church does.If we want to label all Christians as malicious for restricting the use of the term Christian we should also label our Church as malicious for restricting the use of the term Mormon or LDS.The debate is not about are Mormons Christian, it is more about who controls the term. No one can stop me believing I am both Mormon and Christian. They can not stop me from saying it. There will probably never be legislation defining the definition of Christian. I let people know I am Mormon, that I believe in Christ, that I am Christian etc etc and am not ashamed about any of it.I also do not label every Christian who disagrees with me being Christian a member of the Church of the devil. I simply understand that we look at the terms very differently and respect that it is ok for us to disagree on it.I have many Mormon friends, many of who agree with me, many of who disagree with me. I get on with them all equally well, just as I am capable of getting on my my mainstream Christian friends who accept me as Christian as well as those that do not.A lot Christians feel they is enough variance between Mormon theology and their "Christian" beliefs to justify excluding us. I accept that. Based on many of their boundaries of what is acceptable doctrinal beliefs for a Christian to hold they are correct.Mormons are new kids on the block. We have less than 200 years of restored religious history. Christianity was being defined and debated well before we came along. We are such a small player in the Christian world with only 12 million members. Some estimate that there may be as many as 2 billion Christians.I can promise all Mormons everywhere one truism: there will always be a Christian somewhere who is unwilling to accept Mormons are Christian. This does not make them filled with malicious intent. They are simply trying to protect something that is very important to them. Will some of them be filled with malicious intent, probably. But not all of them. Edited June 21, 2012 by Bikeemikey
Gervin Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) Amidst all the histrionics about great men falling from power ... I just wanted to say as an evangelical, that I appreciate - greatly - your ability for perpsective (sp) and empathy for an EV's POV. thanks much, and I'd be glad to call you my fellow believer ... and, perhaps, friend. /Gedit: typos ( a bit too much of my Friday G. ****el [white label]). Edited June 23, 2012 by Gervin
Kerry A. Shirts Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 I like the idea that it is o.k. to disagree with Christians about things and still accept them. I find the same thing is needed within Mormonism as well, ESPECIALLY when we try and learn doctrine, history, significance, etc. together....... some Mormons go over the top, way over the top to damn me to hell for simply not believing something the church teaches...... it's not out of maliciousness I don't believe some things, it's simply out of having thought through all the implications of some things, no harm no foul, until I am Telestialized for it - THEN I object, GRIN!
Bikeemikey Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Amidst all the histrionics about great men falling from power ... I just wanted to say as an evangelical, that I appreciate - greatly - your ability for perpsective (sp) and empathy for an EV's POV. thanks much, and I'd be glad to call you my fellow believer ... and, perhaps, friend. /Gedit: typos ( a bit too much of my Friday G. ****el [white label]).Hey Grevin,Thanks for your comments. Let us know more about your thoughts-feelings on the topic if you get a chance.
Gervin Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Hey Grevin,Thanks for your comments. Let us know more about your thoughts-feelings on the topic if you get a chance.Thanks, Bikeee - I will take you up on the suggestion ... on a weekday that is not so fraught with end-of-the-week ennui; may you have a good weekend and an opportunity to worship Our Lord this Sabbath. Blessings, G
Gervin Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 I like the idea that it is o.k. to disagree with Christians about things and still accept them. I find the same thing is needed within Mormonism as well, ESPECIALLY when we try and learn doctrine, history, significance, etc. together....... some Mormons go over the top, way over the top to damn me to hell for simply not believing something the church teaches...... it's not out of maliciousness I don't believe some things, it's simply out of having thought through all the implications of some things, no harm no foul, until I am Telestialized for it - THEN I object, GRIN!Thanks, Sir Kerry; I appreciate your insight and that you've commented on a (rare) post of mine. Blessings and the best for you this weekend. /G
zerinus Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Amidst all the histrionics about great men falling from power ... I just wanted to say as an evangelical, that I appreciate - greatly - your ability for perpsective (sp) and empathy for an EV's POV. thanks much, and I'd be glad to call you my fellow believer ... and, perhaps, friend. /Gedit: typos ( a bit too much of my Friday G. ****el [white label]).He seems to have plenty of Evangelical friends already. What he seems to be in need of is a few Mormon ones!
JDave Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Can the term "friend" even be legitimately used with respect to Evangelicals? Or is that reserved for Mormons??? Sheesh, Z. Way to demonize an appreciated attempt to see things from someone else's perspective (without ceding ground, even).
Bikeemikey Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 He seems to have plenty of Evangelical friends already. What he seems to be in need of is a few Mormon ones! For plenty on both sides.
Aliwe Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 All this talk of ulterior motives - for the most part there isn't one. It is a transparent motive: to make sure we aren't considered christian and make sure people don't think we believe in Christ. Some more traditional Christians will allow that we believe in a guy name Christ, but not the Christ that matters.Jesus already considered this problem well ahead of time, and he established the Banquet of God, where followers eat the body and drink the blood of Christ. "Do this in memory of me". That way God himself ensures that Christians are tied into the real deal when it comes to his son. The vast majority of Christians believe that Christ is really present in the Last Supper ritual, from Catholics to Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and even Methodists. A branch of Protestantism influenced by Zwingli and Calvin discarded the Last Supper as a sacrament (a physical action that interfaces finite humans with the infinite divine), but retained it as an ordinance on the level of a dress code or the right color hymnal, such that it hardly matters if they partake of root beer and potato chips, and so they become as children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
Aliwe Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 The Lord is not pleased with people because they are Mormons; He is pleased with them if they are righteous. The righteous Christians who are not Mormons are as much His true Church as are the righteous Mormons; whereas the hypocrites and deceivers are not part of His true Church, be they Mormons or non-Mormons.Thanks, that's a big load off my mind. I was going by the truth taught by the one who was President of the Church until 1972.Joseph Fielding Smith: "[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).
cdowis Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) A final comment:Whatever we feel about the term "Christian" and Christianity, this is a matter of discussion here in this forum, among educated members of the church.But in the world, they only understand Christian and "not" Christian, not the subtle nuances discussed here. What is a "not" Christian" an athiest, Musim, the anti-Christ, etc. But worrse still is that this also includes "not" Christian behaviour. "I don't accept the commandments, the Golden Rule, I can choose to do whatever I want. I am not a Christian."To say publically, to publish an opinion piece, that Mormons, LDS are "not" Christian puts us into that category, regardless of our intention, and gives aid and comfort to the enemies of the church.To get our 15 minutes of fame by public proclamation that LDS are not Christian... there will be a high price to be paid.To me, this is a very serious offense, but perhaps the offender is satisfied to see his name published in the newspaper. I am sure there are many who praise and congratulate him on his courageous admission."The truth has finally been told by a member of the Mormon church." Edited June 23, 2012 by cdowis
Muc'ul Ajwalil Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 I would not have stated it in that way. I would have stated it to how we would state this to Middle Easterners. The LDS are not Christians in the sense that we don't agree with many doctrines of traditional Christians. However we are Christians in a different sense in that, though we accept Christ as our Savior and Son of God, we don't rely on just the Bible and oral tradition and other creeds, we rely on other books of Scripture too and continuous revelation.
zerinus Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) Thanks, that's a big load off my mind. I was going by the truth taught by the one who was President of the Church until 1972.Joseph Fielding Smith: "[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).Matthew 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.John 20: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. Edited June 23, 2012 by zerinus
zerinus Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) Double post Edited June 23, 2012 by zerinus
Aliwe Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Matthew 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Those dozen seats were filled up already by (1) Simon Peter, (2) Andrew his brother, (3) James the son of Zebedee, and (4) John his brother, (5) Philip, (6) Bartholomew, (7) Thomas Didymus, ( Matthew the tax collector from Capernaum, (9) James the son of Alphaeus, (10) Judas Thaddaeus, (11) Simon the Canaanite, and (12) Paul of Tarsus (Jesus opting for the Judas Iscariot replacement he picked on Damascus Road rather than the one the Eleven flipped for, Matthias).
zerinus Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Those dozen seats were filled up already by (1) Simon Peter, (2) Andrew his brother, (3) James the son of Zebedee, and (4) John his brother, (5) Philip, (6) Bartholomew, (7) Thomas Didymus, ( Matthew the tax collector from Capernaum, (9) James the son of Alphaeus, (10) Judas Thaddaeus, (11) Simon the Canaanite, and (12) Paul of Tarsus (Jesus opting for the Judas Iscariot replacement he picked on Damascus Road rather than the one the Eleven flipped for, Matthias).So you are admitting that "[There is] no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith those dozen seats. If Joseph Smith those dozen seats was were verily a prophet(s), and if he they told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God". Okay, I get it.
Aliwe Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 So you are admitting that "[There is] no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith those dozen seats. If Joseph Smith those dozen seats was were verily a prophet(s), and if he they told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God". Okay, I get it."He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." -- Jesus to his advance road crew.
zerinus Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." -- Jesus to his advance road crew.Agreed, good point. By the same token, "He that heareth you Joseph Smith heareth me; and he that despiseth you Joseph Smith despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."
Aliwe Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Agreed, good point. By the same token, "He that heareth you Joseph Smith heareth me; and he that despiseth you Joseph Smith despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Hey, that's a neat trick, pulling up a thirteenth seat when there's only supposed to be twelve. Let me pull up a fourteenth. "He that heareth Joseph Smith Master Lao heareth me; and he that despiseth Joseph Smith Master Lao despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."
Kerry A. Shirts Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 LOL! Do I detect lightbulbs going on? I can bring up yet a 15th seat! Ghandi.......
zerinus Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 Hey, that's a neat trick, pulling up a thirteenth seat when there's only supposed to be twelve. Let me pull up a fourteenth. "He that heareth Joseph Smith Master Lao heareth me; and he that despiseth Joseph Smith Master Lao despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."Joseph Smith was the prophet of the Restoration. His station is higher than the original "twelve" whom you are referring to, and I happen to know it. The fact that you don't, or don't want to acknowledge it, is beside the point. Your faithlessness does not destroy the reality of that truth for me. Who cares that you don't believe it? It is no skin off my nose, as they say. We do have a mission to preach the Restored gospel to others; but once we have borne witness to them our job is done. What happens thereafter is between them and the Lord.
Aliwe Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 Joseph Smith was the prophet of the Restoration. His station is higher than the original "twelve" whom you are referring to, and I happen to know it. The fact that you don't, or don't want to acknowledge it, is beside the point. Your faithlessness does not destroy the reality of that truth for me. Who cares that you don't believe it? It is no skin off my nose, as they say. Jesus did care, and it was quite a lot of skin off his back. But you're right, I'm not interested in attacking your "truth" that Joseph Smith's station is higher than the Twelve. For one thing, as a student of daojia, I'm a big fan of the parable taught by Christ about the bachelor party where they guy comes in and takes the highest seat, and is told to give up that seat to a guest who came in and sat at the kiddie's table. Jesus, who gave up equality with God to die on a cross next to criminals, wasn't about hierarchies and ranks, and neither should his followers be. The only thing I'm focusing on is where LDS doctrine directly contradicts the Bible.
zerinus Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 Jesus did care, and it was quite a lot of skin off his back. But you're right, I'm not interested in attacking your "truth" that Joseph Smith's station is higher than the Twelve. For one thing, as a student of daojia, I'm a big fan of the parable taught by Christ about the bachelor party where they guy comes in and takes the highest seat, and is told to give up that seat to a guest who came in and sat at the kiddie's table. Jesus, who gave up equality with God to die on a cross next to criminals, wasn't about hierarchies and ranks, and neither should his followers be.Your opinion is interesting, but inconsequential as far as the reality of the Restoration is concerned for those who know it.The only thing I'm focusing on is where LDS doctrine directly contradicts the Bible.You haven't demonstrated that it does. I asked you in another thread what the "contradictions" were, but you never replied.
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