You Can Believe Whatever You Want, You Just Can'T Teach It

[mfbukowski]

BC, it would appear that there are a lot of LDS who did not agree with the church's stance on Prop 8. I don't have a specific number or percentage, but I know I read something about that, awhile back. I was also told (by a friend) that non-support of prop 8 was an option and no one would be disciplined for that. You did mention an excommunication, but I have not heard of anything like that. I have one LDS friend (from England) who very much disagreed with the church's involvement with prop 8 (and was pretty vocal about it with everyone)..and she is still a very active, recommend holding member.

Very true- faithful members were on both sides and held recommends and still do.

[Libs]

Yes, post #79 is the one I just referenced, above, and the one that I was a little confused about, as I wasn't sure why the idea of the church going off in a different direction, was an issue. It hadn't come up on this thread (yet).

I take it he was addressing critics of the Church though there seemed to be a shot taken in a different direction which is why I mentioned he could be mistaken. He can have the benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned.

I don't see the church heading in that direction, at all, right now, and never thought that, as a possibility. But, I suppose anything could happen, in the future...hard to know.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Libs

[Libs]

Very true- faithful members were on both sides and held recommends and still do.

Yes, that is what I saw... thank you.

[BCSpace]

I don't see the church heading in that direction, at all, right now, and never thought that, as a possibility. But, I suppose anything could happen, in the future...hard to know.

That is what I said on the other board.

Very true- faithful members were on both sides and held recommends and still do.

Yet that does not seem to be the issue. The OP asks whether or not one is lying in certain circumstances. It has already been established that the BoM, and therefore it's claims of historicity, is part of the Restoration.

In a TR interview, I'm not necessarily going to know and the Spirit is not necessarily going to direct, if one does not accept the historicity of the BoM. But if such was known beforehand, my understanding of our instructions guarantees we will be questioning more deeply about one's actual beliefs on the matter of the Restoration and one's testimony of other aspects mentioned in the questions. This is not a witch hunt, but a carrying out of our obligation to make sure no one enters the temple unworthily.

Abortion is not specifically mentioned in the TR questions. Yet there are certain steps we have to take in that circumstance if such has occured in a member's life. And then there is still the question about affiliating or agreeing with groups whose teachings or practices are in opposition or contrary to the Church. In our locality, we have recently thrust Planned Parenthood out of our school district's sex eduation program because they do their darndest to exclude parents from knowing about the cirriculum and not only do they encourage abortions but they teach children to explore their sexuality in ways that violate the law of chastity. All in opposition to LDS doctrine and policy. Now what do you think we should do when we come across a member who supports, agrees with, or is a member of Planned Parenthood? Should we not question them more carefully regarding the relevant TR questions?

Edited May 29, 2012 by BCSpace

[Stargazer]

I keep joking publically in my Stake about getting released and try to make a few outrageous statements to make that happen but it never seems to work.

But seriously, most statements I've made here and on other boards, which some find to be outrageous, I stand by 100%.

A man of my acquaintance who is now in our stake presidency, was formerly our bishop. He told me of the time several months before his call to that office that he had the strong impression of the calling coming to him. Since our then stake president lived in our ward, he deliberately began spending more weekends out of town (he is well off and had a vacation home in a different location, so that's where they went), so as to give the impression they were perhaps less active than they actually were. It didn't work, and the call came to him anyway.

[Alexx]

This is a very interesting topic and it touches many questions i have myself. For me personally this has to do with wether you have a testimony of things or not. As far as I understand it, having a testimony doesn’t require one to believe anymore, they know it. This is a concept that is still very confusing to me.

I have read that some people have a testimony of the truthfulness of the BoM, but not of other things, for examplte the Word of Wisdom. I find that hard to understand. If you gain a true testimony (after asking for it) of the truthfullness of the BoM, doesn’t that automatically mean that you have a testimonoy of JS being a prophet? And if you have a testimony of that, you automatically have a testimony of the Word of Wisdom, right?

I never understood the concept of having several different testimonies of various parts of the Gospel. Furthermore:

- Do we need a testimony to be saved anyway?

- Is having a testimony a neccasity? If so, which testimony of what?

- Is it required / expected of every member that he someday stay in front of his church and declares “I know”?

- Doesn’t the wish to know if its true show a lack of faith?

- Doesn’t the concept of gaining a testimony eliminate the idea of faith somehow?

These are questions that are on my mind all the time…

When we look at the Index of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith for example, we read under the topic of “Testimony”: neccesary to be saved. When you read that part however, it is somewhat cryptic because it still talks about having faith. Do you still have faith when you have a testimony?

There are several scriptures that say that those who have “just” faith in other testomonies are even more blessed that those who know.

So do we need to have a testimony / testimonies? Or is it “sufficient enough” to simply keep on believing?

[thesometimesaint]

This is a very interesting topic and it touches many questions i have myself. For me personally this has to do with wether you have a testimony of things or not. As far as I understand it, having a testimony doesn’t require one to believe anymore, they know it. This is a concept that is still very confusing to me.

I have read that some people have a testimony of the truthfulness of the BoM, but not of other things, for examplte the Word of Wisdom. I find that hard to understand. If you gain a true testimony (after asking for it) of the truthfullness of the BoM, doesn’t that automatically mean that you have a testimonoy of JS being a prophet? And if you have a testimony of that, you automatically have a testimony of the Word of Wisdom, right?

I never understood the concept of having several different testimonies of various parts of the Gospel. Furthermore:

- Do we need a testimony to be saved anyway?

- Is having a testimony a neccasity? If so, which testimony of what?

- Is it required / expected of every member that he someday stay in front of his church and declares “I know”?

- Doesn’t the wish to know if its true show a lack of faith?

- Doesn’t the concept of gaining a testimony eliminate the idea of faith somehow?

These are questions that are on my mind all the time…

When we look at the Index of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith for example, we read under the topic of “Testimony”: neccesary to be saved. When you read that part however, it is somewhat cryptic because it still talks about having faith. Do you still have faith when you have a testimony?

There are several scriptures that say that those who have “just” faith in other testomonies are even more blessed that those who know.

So do we need to have a testimony / testimonies? Or is it “sufficient enough” to simply keep on believing?

If you can honestly answer he Temple Recommend questions. You should be fine.

[Alexx]

I would appreciate it if you'd be more precise, i have no idea what you are trying to tell me with that answer.

[thesometimesaint]

1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
   
2. Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
   
3. Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
   
4. Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
   
5. Do you live the law of chastity?
   
6. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
   
7. Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
   
8. Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
   
9. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
   
10. Are you a full-tithe payer? Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
    
11. Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
    
12. If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
    
13. Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
    
14. Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
    

[Alexx]

Well, thanks for that list of tenple questions They do not, however, answer any of my questions. In fact, they illustrate my point. Why don’t you address the questions directly?

Temple question 1 for example: Do you have faith in and a testimony of God.

Why and? Where’s the faith when you know? What do you believe if you have a testimony?

How can you have (or need) two testimonies of both Jesus as the redeemer and the restoration? If you have a testimony of the restored gospel, you also have a testimony of Christ as the redeemer, right? Why are these testimonies apart from each other?

[thesometimesaint]

Alexx:

I'm trying to be as direct as I can.

The devils believe but I'm not too sure I would say they have a testimony.

I believe what the Church teaches.

Any person who is a Christian has a testimony of Christ. However not all Christians believe in the Restoration.

[DBMormon]

Better Question to discuss amongst yourselves

"Do you have a right to teach things you know are true if you are in the minority and it will cause resistance?"

Ex: - lesson is being taught on the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and a discussion ensues about Joseph's preparation and how the translation took place. Do you feel permitted?/ Obligated?/ hesitant? to share Jospeh experience as the twon seer using a seer stone and then relaying how it was used in the translation?

Ex: Discussion on how Joseph treated Emma in a discussion on how to treat your wife. Can one throw out a point about one of his plural wives if it illistrates a good point tying into the lesson?

In other words how do each of you who know more then the general population of your ward handle imparting new information true as it may be? This thread assumes your belief is not only different but not held by the church as well. But in some cases the church does hold it but members in general do not. what do you do?

[Alexx]

I think you're still not getting what i am trying to ask here in the first place... Don't get me wrong, i appreciate your replies, they just don't help me very much. My questions are pretty straight forward, i dont understand why you won't just answer them.

- Is a testimony (not simply having faith), having something confirmed by the Holy Ghost, neccesary to be saved?

- Why do i need a testimony? To put it simply: I dont need a testimony for myself, i already believe it all. Is that enough?

- Why do people have more than just one Testimony? (one for the BoM, one for the WoW, one for the BoA and so on)

- Doesnt having a testimony of the truthfullness of the BoM give you an automatic Testimony that JS was a prophet? If not, why not?

- Why would you aks the Holy Spirit for another testimony (more testimonies) if you have already gained one?

- Do those who have a Testimony still believe? I mean, they all claim to know. Knowing is more than just believing.

- Doesnt the wish to know show a lack of faith?

[DBMormon]

- Is a testimony (not simply having faith), having something confirmed by the Holy Ghost, neccesary to be saved?

Blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe... no faith is needed not a sure knowledge

- Why do i need a testimony? To put it simply: I dont need a testimony for myself, i already believe it all. Is that enough?

Testimony can be faith where a witness came from the spirit. It doesn't have to be a absolute knowing to be testimony

- Why do people have more than just one Testimony? (one for the BoM, one for the WoW, one for the BoA and so on)

One may believe that Joseph was a prophet but that he was fallen. So they may accept the book of mormon but not later revelations like polygamy

- Doesnt having a testimony of the truthfullness of the BoM give you an automatic Testimony that JS was a prophet? If not, why not?

On this I would say yes, they are interchangebly connected

- Why would you aks the Holy Spirit for another testimony (more testimonies) if you have already gained one?

Why would pray about where to move the pray about what car to buy? becasue the truth of one item soesnt nessacarily mean the next one is. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but still pray at times to know if something said in conference was true.

- Do those who have a Testimony still believe? I mean, they all claim to know. Knowing is more than just believing.

Some things I know, some things I believe, and some things I hope in

- Doesnt the wish to know show a lack of faith?

it does, but sometimes that is where we are at on certain issues.

[Storm Rider]

I think you're still not getting what i am trying to ask here in the first place... Don't get me wrong, i appreciate your replies, they just don't help me very much. My questions are pretty straight forward, i dont understand why you won't just answer them.

- Is a testimony (not simply having faith), having something confirmed by the Holy Ghost, neccesary to be saved? A testimony is most often used to describe a topic which is believed and which has been confirmed by the Holy Spirit. We are saved by faith in Christ and a desire to follow him and his teachings.

- Why do i need a testimony? To put it simply: I dont need a testimony for myself, i already believe it all. Is that enough? Does a disciple want to learn more about his master? If so, then trying to learn more truth; to grow in our relationship with our Father and his Son; to have a personal relationship. Some will be valiant in their pursuit of a personal relationship with God while others are comfortable with what they have. You may recall the parable of the workers given different talents; the laborer that doubled his gold talents was honored of the Lord.

- Why do people have more than just one Testimony? (one for the BoM, one for the WoW, one for the BoA and so on) There is only one testimony, but it encompasses many things. Think about more like having a foundation built on Jesus Christ. Some will build but a shack while others will build a palace of knowledge and truth.

- Doesnt having a testimony of the truthfullness of the BoM give you an automatic Testimony that JS was a prophet? If not, why not? If one has a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon it is logical to assume that Smith was a prophet of God, an instrument through whom God worked to bring it forth to the world.

- Why would you aks the Holy Spirit for another testimony (more testimonies) if you have already gained one? It seems like you are having more of a semantic problem than anything here. There is only one foundation in our pursuit of truth; one foundation is one testimony. Our testimony grows in strength and may cover a great many things. A testimony is not like separate coins that we earn; it is our knowledge of Jesus Christ and his gospel. As we grow in our understanding of Christ and his teachings our testimony grows in strength and understanding of many things. Christ taught mysteries to his apostles; why do you think he did that? Why didn't he teach the public the same things? Does the Spirit teach a greater love of Christ? Does it teach a deeper way of serving others? Is knowing the mysteries of God worthwhile? How might it benefit us? Who will teach us the mysteries today?

- Do those who have a Testimony still believe? I mean, they all claim to know. Knowing is more than just believing. Knowing and believing are often used in the bearing of testimonies in Church. LDS seldom "know" as in have a perfect knowledge of something. We are a people of faith; we have faith that God lives and that Jesus is the Christ. When the Holy Spirit bears witness to us we often believe fervently that it is true. This will cause us to say that "we know" something to be true. The only way that we do not live by faith is when we can a sure or perfect knowledge of something. To move from faith in Christ to sure knowledge is to see Christ in the flesh. Not too many people have that type of vision.

- Doesnt the wish to know show a lack of faith? The scriptures teach us that hope is a stepping stone to faith. Some of us pursue a sure knowledge of things. Some will not believe unless God appears to them; they want a vision or a burning bush type of experience. Wishing to know is not a lack of faith necessarily; it is a wish to know. The NT tells us to seek after a calling of election. What is that? Should we seek after such a thing? Do you think that seeking after it demonstrates a lack of faith? I don't think so.

Interesting questions; it does seem there are some semantic problems rather than anything substitative. These are just my thoughts and I claim no deep understanding; I am a simple man of faith that is weaker than most of the people you will meet. I hope your faith in Christ and his gospel grows in strength and understanding.

[Mariner]

Of course it does -- to you.

Perhaps that is simply because I am in a position to state the obvious, while you, my friend, are clearly not.

But not to anyone who knows what they are talking about.

By "anyone", you must mean any one true believer.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Mariner

[BCSpace]

This is a very interesting topic and it touches many questions i have myself. For me personally this has to do with wether you have a testimony of things or not. As far as I understand it, having a testimony doesn’t require one to believe anymore, they know it. This is a concept that is still very confusing to me.

I have read that some people have a testimony of the truthfulness of the BoM, but not of other things, for examplte the Word of Wisdom. I find that hard to understand. If you gain a true testimony (after asking for it) of the truthfullness of the BoM, doesn’t that automatically mean that you have a testimonoy of JS being a prophet? And if you have a testimony of that, you automatically have a testimony of the Word of Wisdom, right?

I never understood the concept of having several different testimonies of various parts of the Gospel. Furthermore:

- Do we need a testimony to be saved anyway?

- Is having a testimony a neccasity? If so, which testimony of what?

- Is it required / expected of every member that he someday stay in front of his church and declares “I know”?

- Doesn’t the wish to know if its true show a lack of faith?

- Doesn’t the concept of gaining a testimony eliminate the idea of faith somehow?

These are questions that are on my mind all the time…

When we look at the Index of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith for example, we read under the topic of “Testimony”: neccesary to be saved. When you read that part however, it is somewhat cryptic because it still talks about having faith. Do you still have faith when you have a testimony?

There are several scriptures that say that those who have “just” faith in other testomonies are even more blessed that those who know.

So do we need to have a testimony / testimonies? Or is it “sufficient enough” to simply keep on believing?

Faith is "evidence and substance" of things unseen. So I think one can say that yes, a testimony implies knowledge. But what kind of knowledge is it? Is it first hand direct or is it that the Spirit tells you that it's true or exists etc.? Either way, I believe one can have a testimony and say "I know" without ever having seen directly.

Lots of people do struggle with this and as far as being worthy for a TR, the fact that one is struggling (like Paul who said he wasn't saved yet in Philippians) is a good indication of worthiness. So, for example, one might say in a TR interview, "I struggle with having a testimony of the Restored Gospel". I might say, among other things, well, as long as you're still struggling.....it's all good provided of course they don't have other issues.

[Libs]

Alexx, I believe a "testimony" involves some kind of a witness from the Holy Spirit, and I do, therefore, believe it is possible to have a testimony of one part of the gospel, without having an actual testimony of other parts. I know some people believe that a witness of one part (a witness of the Book of Mormon, for example) should be verification of all the rest, which is probably where you are coming from...and I do see the logic in that. But, there are other ways to look at it. I have read that some people believed Joseph Smith was, at some point, a fallen prophet..sometime before the Book of Abraham and polygamy...which (if true) could be a reason for having a testimony of the Book of Mormon, and even the Restoration, in general, but not of the Book of Abraham and polygamy.

[Libs]

So, for example, one might say in a TR interview, "I struggle with having a testimony of the Restored Gospel". I might say, among other things, well, as long as you're still struggling.....it's all good provided of course they don't have other issues.

This is interesting, BC. Do you think most Bishops would handle it that way?

So, you are saying, basically, it is okay to be struggling with your faith, but once that "struggle" becomes solidified into an actual belief that is counter to what is taught as doctrine, that would be the point of a sort of apostasy?

[SamIam]

Libs for my apologies for the auto-assumption of you being a man. Usually, I try to use gender neural or double pronouns but that one got away from me.

On reflection, I guess, I'm kind of wondering why I even made this thread. I don't recall ever hearing anyone say "you can believe whatever you want" in regards to the church...so, it was just kind of a new concept to turnover and examine.

Now this astounds me. In your first post this is the quote that you started your thread with:

Scott Gordon made a statement that kind of surprised me, and so I wanted to bring it here and see what you all thought about it, and how exactly this might work, in reality.

The statement was, something to the effect that you can believe whatever you want, in the church, you just cannot teach it. He further said, that you can even believe the Book of Mormon is not literal, and still be a member in good standing.

Now to find you wondering about where this idea even came from is surprising to me as it seemed you had a point of origin. However, this will make the second time that my first response nailed your tendencies as if I knew you personally. The third time overall if we count the psych thesis thing but that was just a lucky guess.

Here is what I posited in my first response:

You stated that you heard Mr. Gordon state something to the effect of; “you can even believe the Book of Mormon is not literal, and still be a member in good standing”. To you, what Mr. Gordon stated when brought through the filter of “my own belief” as you describe it in your own words, was able to be conformed to a preconceived notion of personal interpretation because “my own belief about the Book of Mormon leans in that direction.”

My question becomes is it God you are looking for or are you simply looking for yourself? When you first stated that it was Mr. Gordon’s comment that inspired the question and now you explain that he (I hope he is a man…or I’m really messing up this gender thing) never said anything of the sort it makes you wonder. There was no external source for your musings and so they must have come from within.

My statement was that as you ran Mr. Gordon’s thoughts through your personal filter they came out in your head with implications that I now suspect were not even insinuated. They seem to represent the crisis of faith that you are still facing and so they are super imposing themselves all over everything – even unrelated material. It is good that you have started a journey back from what you describe as a total loss of testimony to a point now where you can accept the spiritual confirmations you have had in the past. Yet I cannot sense that you have figured out why you left in the first place.

Sometimes, I think everything comes down to math…which is sad because it is not one of my strong points. However, sometimes God confirms something to us and then expects us to extrapolate the obvious and in the process develop the habit of trusting him. I analyze everything so I hope you will forgive my amateurish efforts of trying to sense your heart from just a few posts but I don’t think I am far off on this...

Let’s look at the logic part of the puzzle. At some point you have indicated that you have had spiritual witnesses of something about the Book of Mormon. I do not know the depth of the witnesses, but it was sufficient to pull you back from a very distant area. Since you are a Psych BA, you must realize that from a psychological perspective something that is able to alter the course of our natural tendencies and nature had to be something that was very compelling in its way.

For me that confirmation says you know God but you may not have realized he knows you much better. Lib’s is going to need just this much to get her over this crisis. At a point when you were flying high with this new understanding that the Book Of Mormon was true on whatever principles you had given you, God recognized you and gave you what you needed then and for a future you were not aware of. Perhaps you didn’t realize it at the moment but he gave you something precisely tailored to you and so much more than you have realized. He gave you enough light that when you were feeling engulfed by darkness it could still be just bright enough to pull you back in his direction. He didn’t give you too much because that handicaps us from becoming as strong as we need to become but he tailored it to be just perfect for you. I mentioned in one of my posts on this thread that I don’t do this blog thingy for the need of something to fill my time and that I only add to a point when I feel a little nudge. I think you are the purpose of the nudge. I want to develop the alligator analogy a little further – perhaps it will illustrate better than other things I might say. At least now that it is clear you are not a he at least I can get the gender points correct…

Remember you are the one on the platform that is contemplating your next move Are you going to jump into the tall grass that does not yet reveal its dangers or are you going to go back to the door and ask the quiet voice inside to let you back in. He’ll open the door and it will appear much darker than it was for your adjustment to the dim light of your own guesses of which way to go. Go alone at first leave the people on the platform. The quiet guy in the corner can see your every move so ask him about a little light. He will strike a match. It’s kind of weird, you can see the match, and you can tell the quiet guy is there but you never seem to be able to see what he looks like. But you are positive that the match didn’t light itself so you walk over all the way across the pitch black darkness towards the light. He gives you the match and you can carry it. While you are holding on to the match move it around a little bit and see what else you can see.

There’s a table just to your right. And on it is a lamp. “Oh a lamp”, you say to yourself –“ that will help me see even better.” Work with the lamp until you figure out the mechanisms for raising the wick and lifting the glass just enough to get your match over in time to light the lamp. Whoa – look at that it lights up a lot more area. You see it’s one of those little Coleman Lamps that has a little primer pump on the side and if you pump on the primer on a regular basis it keeps the light from dimming and makes it brighter and it lights more still. Not the entire room all at once but just enough that by moving around you can bring other doors into view.

There’s a bunch of them in this room. You note they all have writing on the door to give you some clue as to what is on the other side. You go by one and it says “alligators” on it. Now go get your friends. Don’t go back out on the platform. You’ve already been here once and if you hadn’t remembered that quiet voice from before you might have been forever lost. Just call them back in.

You’ve got a lamp and it is a sure source of light as long as you keep checking with the quiet man who provides the fuel and you keep pumping the primer on the lamp to keep it at its peak of light. It is just enough light to help you help them. Some will follow; some will stay on the platform thinking like you once did that they can jump to the tall grass and be free. When everyone is back in that is going to come you notice you shifted to the left of the door as they came in and you notice you are by another door. Curious you lift your lamp and note that it has one word scribbled on the door – Lions. Whoa – that was close – that lamp is already showing you things you didn’t see before.

You must go forward and take your lamp. You are in a better position now to actually lead others and that really is something you’ve wanted to do for a long time you just didn’t have enough light before. However, now, if you trust the lamp to guide and you pay close attention to using it properly and checking for fuel and priming regularly, now you have just enough to really light a little path for others to follow. First thing is to tell them about the little quiet guy in the corner. They will eventually need to make good use of their own lamps. Some are heading over to the quiet guy right now to get their lamps. You hear them talking as they go trying to help each other. Some of the voices sound young – like children.

Earlier in the darkness before you jumped out on the platform you didn’t remember children, but you weren’t really paying attention then. They sound like familiar voices. You wonder whose children they are glad that you helped bring them back to a safer place. You are looking for the one door, the one and only door that will take you out into the light and the freedom of the truth. You are moving and searching, ignoring the doors you have figured out and carefully reviewing the new ones that come into your view. As you do here come the little voices of those little children – and looky there they have these cute little lamps of their own. You wonder if theirs will hold much fuel and you realize that you may have to give them just a bit of your fuel from time to time to keep their lamps lit. It’s interesting that they found your lamp again but they seem to trust you to help them find that one door. So they follow.

I don’t know the end of your story or for the people involved that are watching your every move hoping that you are finding the way they also seek…it kind of changes for every person depending on if they find the one door or not. You show great promise though and those little voices and a few bigger ones will be glad for the light you have helped them find and that helps you to try harder. Keep looking, use the quiet man, the lamp and the primer to keep your own lamp bright. Share your oil, when you get the chance as you have found that as long as you stay true it never seems to diminish.

Anyway, I do understand what you're saying...but, I don't see myself following after the "philosophies of men" (although, I suppose no one does).

The issue with the philosophies of men is that it has become intrinsic with social indoctrination. We hardly see something that has been the only thing we have ever known. Neil a Maxwell does a book on a hypothetical theme called Look back at Sodom. One point that he made which I particularly liked was that when Sodom had ripened for destruction, the spirits in Heaven who were marked to be sent to Sodom complained to the Father that the society was so wicked and ripe in iniquity that to be born amongst them was a no way out scenario. They would be so completely indoctrinated in a society of wickedness that there was no hope of returning to God. In many ways, I see our country in that same boat. I also see it expanding into the LDS population.

You as a women, I see as being a member of the group that has been the target of the most significant and aggressive aspects of the attack by the indoctrinations of the philosophies of men. So many things that you may believe you are to be or to do in this life are totally compromised by the expectations of society. I'm going to guess that deep inside you have no sense of how truly remarkable it is to be a women in the gospel -that seems to be the common thing anymore amongst the women in the church. Torn between the loud demands of the world's expectations of you and the quiet insistance of the guy who helps fill the lamp it is very challenging to ignore the loud demanding voices of the world. The only way to know if you are driven by the philosophies of men is to make of list of everything in your life that in some way opposes or does not conform to the teachings of the prophets of the church. As you go through the list determine upon what principle you do not precisely match the recommendations. Sometimes, there are good reasons for some behaviors, such as working outside the home during the years of children. Sometimes that simply has to be because circumstance demands it. However, it is not the recommended state otherwise. I am purely using that example for its clarity and distinction of presentation – not to ignite any conflict.

I have tried to follow the spirit and allow God to be my guide. It is easy for you to believe that people should just "follow the prophet", but when you don't have the faith required, it's easier said than done. If I believed with all my heart that Joseph Smith was a prophet, then, I would, of course, follow him without reservation. But, since I don't have that kind of faith, it is kind of like a Muslim saying to you, why do you walk out on a cliff (following the world or falling into a pit of alligators), when you should just be following Muhammad and all of your troubles would cease. Would that convince you to follow Muhammad?

I have been respectful but very bold in my responses and you have chosen to not be offended. Nothing I have said should be offensive as I never mean any offense. However, my bold nature will generally divide the ones that are sincere from those that are just looking for a fight. You have been very mature and interacted very pleasantly and that speaks volumes to your character. I think you'll find what you are seeking if you refuse to let people steal your light. They are everywhere anymore and amongst our own are the most decieving.

There really is no reason to believe with all of your heart … at first. Start by just believing with some of your heart. The stability of my testimony is born of the journey. I’ve had my moments as well as anyone. I have read, studied, digested every anti-Mormon deal going. Looking back I do not advocate that as a necessary process.

However, and I think this is critical. You have already stated that you do believe in Joseph Smith in that you indicated you had returned to accepting the experiences you have had with the Book of Mormon. This is part of where God may expect us to use our heads a little bit but what is the Book of Mormon without Joseph Smith as its translator? You already know more than I think you are acknowledging to yourself. Don’t fight what you have and then let it grow and in time it will become with your whole heart that you will know all things. However, you have to accept each gift given in its fullness and I think you are still tearing off the wrapping paper and the bows of the testimonies you already have and are maybe just getting to the good stuff inside the box.

If it helps, here’s a little oil from my lamp…I have absolutely no hesitancy on sustaining Joseph Smith as a prophet of God in the fullest. It is not some rehearsed few lines. About 11 years ago – he was just another supposed to be good person because somebody said so. Then I begin to study his writings, his comments, what his friends said about him and over the years I covered as much as is available. Along the way I have sought direction and guidance and now I know it, beyond doubt. The church is the same. Sometimes I think we go for the superstitious need to believe something and so religion just fits okay if we don’t ask questions. Questions are good - they just have to be the right ones. However, there is a logical aspect of it as well. We establish an organization upon the same principles that Jesus Christ organized the meridian church and it works and it works very well and it exceeds all other organizations for it efficiency and organizational ability to reach all the way from the very top down to the very least individual in a way that no other organization can even measure against. Pragmatically it makes sense and spiritually it is even clearer.

Somehow I think you know much of this, you have already experienced answers to questions. But sometimes we want to keep asking the questions over and over and over… It’s time for new questions not the ones born of the doubts that people put in your head but the questions of belief in what you have already been given. Until the light from your lamp is solidly burning avoid the people that do not believe or even those that want to dilute your belief. You want to lead others and to do so you will need to follow the correct guides.

[Nemesis]

I was quite confident about Steve Young's wife backtracking yes. Still am.

Yes I would be interested in seeing that. It would be very unfortunate, but as I stated before, being in good standing with the Church, which has to navigate in the world, does not automatically mean being in good standing with God. Given the nature of the retraction, it seems more like both of them have made certain...compromises. Also unfortunate if the Church's stance took a back seat. Matthew 10 comes to mind.

So have you determined, as per your OP, whether or not someone is liying in those circumstances? I made that determination long ago and have so far succesfully avoided those circumstances.

Your odds making would seem deficient considering the contexts I've given before.....

Ok this needs to stop. We do not allow others to question others faithfulness.

Nemesis

[JustLooking24]

He further said, that you can even believe the Book of Mormon is not literal, and still be a member in good standing. I took that to mean you can believe the Book of Mormon is not literal history. This statement caught my interest because my own belief about the Book of Mormon leans in that direction. I do believe the book is inspired, but I'm not sure it is true history.

Something on this topic.

"Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church..." "To hear someone so remarkable say something so tremendously bold, so overwhelming in its implications, that everything in the Church — everything — rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth, can be a little breathtaking. It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward." "Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, [1] after seeing the Father and the Son, [2] later beheld the angel Moroni, [3] repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually [4] receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which [5] he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those." "I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically." - Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” New Era, June 1995, Page 64 (Excerpted from a CES Symposium address given at Brigham Young University on August 9, 1994.)

Maybe its not okay to have your view of the Book of Mormon?

[Calm]

Libs is not LDS at this point in time. If she finds value in the Book of Mormon and it helps her seek out the Spirit, I don't think the Lord is going to be unhappy if she doesn't view it exactly like most LDS do.

[mfbukowski]

In our locality, we have recently thrust Planned Parenthood out of our school district's sex eduation program because they do their darndest to exclude parents from knowing about the cirriculum and not only do they encourage abortions but they teach children to explore their sexuality in ways that violate the law of chastity. All in opposition to LDS doctrine and policy. Now what do you think we should do when we come across a member who supports, agrees with, or is a member of Planned Parenthood? Should we not question them more carefully regarding the relevant TR questions?

Holy cow.

I am against Planned Parenthood as much as anyone but the fact that you could "thrust Planned Parenthood out of our school district's sex eduation program (sic)" indicates to me that you live in a very very conservative area and that your views of what is acceptable to the community at large- including what is proper concerning issues like Prop 8 is vastly different from my community.

It's good that we have local bishops who can judge people on their individual lives and the standards- or lack thereof- which prevail in the community and bring all those issues into consideration.

Our main problem in getting families to join the church in our area is that even though they may be great families and have the seeds of a real testimony, 99% of the time the parents are not married. So now the missionaries are in the position of trying to force couples who see no need to be married into getting married- with all the attendant economic, parental and social fallout which goes with that.

And so we who are LDS have very little control over what is taught in schools, and either the children must be home schooled or they must be taught that we are "in the world but not of it".

The bottom line is that your conservative standards may work where you live, but what you are espousing could not work everywhere, and you should know that. Practically all new member single parent families we have, include extra interviews about past abortions or other serious issues, and yet our members are just as vibrant and glowing with the spirit as anywhere else - once they are ready to accept the gospel. And missionaries being missionaries, sometimes they are baptized before they are truly ready- that is out of a bishop's hands, though, unfortunately.

So just know that your idea that people should be excommunicated for advocating gay marriage might work for your little community, but it certainly does not apply for every community.

There are even Mormons in West Hollywood you know.

Remember the savior was looked down upon for associating with sinners

And remember "Zion" is where we are- we have not been commanded to gather - yet, and who knows- perhaps that may never happen

Edited May 29, 2012 by mfbukowski

[cinepro]

There are even Mormons in West Hollywood you know.

My oldest daughter was born when my wife and I were living in West Hollywood.