Grace, Mercy, And Works And The Revealed Role Of Each

[DBMormon]

I don't have time to watch the video at the moment, though I will do so a bit later.

Stargazer, at least watch the first 17 minutes

[DBMormon]

JUSTIFICATION - to be found clean of one's sins or to be found not guilty

three ways to do

1.) keep the law perfectly though according to prophets is impossible

2.) Suffer for your own sins D&C 19

3.) receive Christ's mercy through the atonement

mercy = getting a pass when you should have gotten what you deserve

SANCTIFICATION - to be changed, purified, made perfect

1.) done in the here and now by yoking with Christ and borrowing his perfection in the covenant relationship and using the gift of Grace

2.) done in eternity by progressing forward till one day when you are truly perfect standing on your own two feet

Grace = getting blessings or increase where one doesn't deserve it

[DBMormon]

If we can obtain the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that divine enabling power to assist us, we will triumph in this life and be exalted in the life to come. To obtain grace, one does not have to be perfect but he does have to be trying to keep the commandments the best that he can. Then the Lord may allow him to receive that power. - "Gene R Cook

Receiving Divine Assistance through the Grace of the Lord

ELDER GENE R. COOK

Of the Seventy

http://www.lds.org/e...ace+gene+r+cook

No one says we have to keep the commandments perfectly.... that would be like the Borg taking over your planet and saying resistance is futile.... hopeless, no one makes it.

Edited May 8, 2012 by reelmormon

[Cobalt-70]

Do you think the dead are kept in cold storage? In the Spirit World, people still have agency and can still make covenants and can still choose whether or not to obey and live the gospel. They can still choose to be charitable, etc.

They can undergo conversion. But they cannot be baptized, and they cannot themselves participate in the other sacraments of Mormonism. And there is no scriptural support for the idea that once someone in the spirit world is converted (through acceptance of Jesus and the symbolic acts performed in their name), that they then need to perform works in order to be saved. Also, there is no scriptural support for the idea that such a person, converted in the afterlife, can thereafter sin.

[wenglund]

True wenglund you are saving yourself from negative consequences and also recieving predicated blessings.

Then, contrary to what you said, keeping the commandments can save us.

The problem here is in the varied meaning of the words "saved" and "salvation"--even as used throughout the scriptures. Too often people mistakenly assume that these terms are always used in the scriptures in regards to the same thing, and that we all understand it the same way. It isn't, and we don't. That is why I asked, "saved from what?"

I think we all agree that nothing we can personally do will fully recompense or cleanse us from the sins we have committed. Only one who is sinless could pay the price. So, in this respect, we are saved from our sins by the grace of God. By grace alone are we saved.

I think we also agree that there are things we can do to avoid the consequences of sins, and also things we can do to better ourselves and save ourselves from our fallen condition. We can, in a certain respect, save ourselves through obedience to the commandments.

There are other elements of salvations, and other things from which we can be saved, though the above should hopefully suffice in making my point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Kenngo1969]

If Bro. Brad Wilcox taught false doctrine (or if Bro. Stephen Robinson does [or did] so, for that matter) why should they be treated any differently than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints treated Bro. Randy Bott when he did the same? Bro. Wilcox gave the BYU Devotional address under discussion in July of 2011. What is the Church waiting for? The reasons underlying the prohibition on giving Black Africans the Priesthood for the first 148 years of the Church's existence, while important, seem to be of somewhat less importance than the role of grace and works, respectively, in salvation, yet the Church acted immediately when Bro. Bott's remarks were publicized while remaining mum all of this time regarding Bro. Wilcox's. Why is that?

Things that make you go, "Hmmm ..."

[Cobalt-70]

JUSTIFICATION - to be found clean of one's sins or to be found not guilty

three ways to do

1.) keep the law perfectly though according to prophets is impossible

2.) Suffer for your own sins D&C 19

3.) receive Christ's mercy through the atonement

mercy = getting a pass when you should have gotten what you deserve

I don't think D&C 19 can, in its context, be read as saying that one would "suffer for your own sins," or that such suffering justifies anyone. It just says that unless you repent, you will be punished, and your suffering will be as great as that of Jesus. It does not say that this suffering justifies you. You suffer because you are being punished, not because you are atoning for your own sins and thereby justifying yourself.

[DBMormon]

wenglund, you worded it well... I agree. Since we are on the point of conversation in describing different meanings of saved I thought I would mention some say salvation and exhaltation are different and when this discussion occurs they use that copout. To ensure that doesn't occur here please see the following quote.

he second typical explanation goes something like this: The fall of Adam brought two kinds of death into the world—physical death, which is the separation of body and spirit, and spiritual death, which is separation of man from God. The atonement of Christ overcame physical death through the Resurrection. This is salvation by grace because it comes to all men automatically and does not depend on what kinds of lives they have lived. But, if we wish to overcome spiritual death and enter back into God’s presence, we must be obedient to laws and principles. This is exaltation by works. Thus, according to this explanation, we are saved by grace andexalted by works.

This is an appealing explanation because it seems to provide a logical argument that fits the statements of Paul neatly into it. However, there is a doctrinal error involved here. While the resurrection of the dead is certainly an integral part of the plan of salvation, and is unconditional and independent of men’s works, the term salvation as used in the scriptures does not mean physical resurrection alone. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie has pointed out, salvation is synonymous with exaltation:

“Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation oreternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek.” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 670.)

Gerald lund's ensign talk

Edited May 9, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

Then, contrary to what you said, keeping the commandments can save us.

I should have clarrified, but When I speak of Salvation in this discussion or being saved, I am speaking of Exhaltation or living in the presence of God the Father

Edited May 9, 2012 by reelmormon

[T-Shirt]

So in this life they can NOT keep the commandments 100% and still be exhalted? hmmmmmm. Many

Christians have the commandments. Being in this church isn't the only way where one has this command to be obedient 100% do we? <------ devil's advocate

Let me ask this 3rd article of faith says what? we are saved by the atonement through obedience... ahh but not just obedience for the sake of obedience... but rather obedience to a set of things..... the principles and ordinances of the gospel.... what are those?

Faith, Repentence, Ordinances, enduring to the end.... to endure does not mean to keep the commandments but to press forward with steadfastness.

sorry.... but the BOM, articles of Faith, apostle Paul, and numerous others never tell me being 100% to commandments gets me to Celestial Glory

I was not responding to your comments.

[T-Shirt]

Also, there is no scriptural support for the idea that such a person, converted in the afterlife, can thereafter sin.

Well, I would disagree. However, the biggest problem with this position is it wood require that agency be suspended. Edited May 9, 2012 by T-Shirt

[DBMormon]

I don't think D&C 19 can, in its context, be read as saying that one would "suffer for your own sins," or that such suffering justifies anyone. It just says that unless you repent, you will be punished, and your suffering will be as great as that of Jesus. It does not say that this suffering justifies you. You suffer because you are being punished, not because you are atoning for your own sins and thereby justifying yourself.

Whatwould be the point then, why do it, why suffer for your sins. Why are we punished.... to pay a debt. Otherwise he would just send us to a lesser glory and that would be it, yet he doesn't. Sin has a price and if we don't allow the Saviors atonement to pay for it then the debt still remains. Christ is the mediator if we allow him. This goes back to, while corrupted in the direction, the blood atonement that BY taught. It is this principle

[Anakin7]

For me Accessing/Activating Jesus Christs Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice is by way of Washing My Robes In His Blood which is done by keeping His commandments out of a True living Faith In Jesus Christs Holy Name - True charis -Grace is accessed/activated by True Faith - pistis.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited May 9, 2012 by Anakin7

[zerinus]

JUSTIFICATION - to be found clean of one's sins or to be found not guilty

three ways to do

1.) keep the law perfectly though according to prophets is impossible

Not quite true. It is possible to do in this life, by the grace of God:

Mosiah 3:

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Alma 13:

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

2.) Suffer for your own sins D&C 19

Okay.

3.) receive Christ's mercy through the atonement

mercy = getting a pass when you should have gotten what you deserve

Except that there is a precondition: it requires repentance. Grace is not sufficient to save anyone without repentance:

Alma 42:

12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

Helaman 5:

11 And he hath power given unto him from the Father to redeem them from their sins because of repentance; therefore he hath sent his angels to declare the tidings of the conditions of repentance, which bringeth unto the power of the Redeemer, unto the salvation of their souls.

Helaman 14:

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.

18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not hewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness.

D&C 18:

11 For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him.

12 And he hath risen again from the dead, that he might bring all men unto him, on conditions of repentance.

13 And how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth!

It is true that grace means “unmerited favor;” but theologically speaking, it is not completely unmerited. There are preconditions. The preconditions are faith and repentance. And repentance means keeping all the commandments of God. There is no such thing as repentance without keeping God’s commandments. Repentance is more than just being sorry for past sins. It means to stop sinning, and start keeping God commandments. And repentance is made possible by the Atonement. When somebody called it a “gift,” that is true. It is a gift because it is made possible by the Atonement. Had it not been for the Atonement, nobody could have repented, because it wouldn’t have done them any good if they did. But with the redemption of the Atonement being made conditional on repentance, it makes that repentance both possible, as well as a gift from God.

SANCTIFICATION - to be changed, purified, made perfect

To be sanctified means to be made holy, according to the commandment, “Be ye holy, for I am holy” (Leviticus 11:44, 45; 19:2; 1 Peter 1:16). “For I am able to make you holy, . . .” (D&C 60:7).

1.) done in the here and now by yoking with Christ and borrowing his perfection in the covenant relationship and using the gift of Grace

There is no “yoking with Christ,” or “borrowing his perfection”. To be made holy means to be made holy, with all that it implies. See above.

2.) done in eternity by progressing forward till one day when you are truly perfect standing on your own two feet

Grace = getting blessings or increase where one doesn't deserve it

Incorrect. Sanctification, whether it is done on this life or the next, it is done by the grace of God. There is no such thing as “standing on your own feet”. Salvation, sanctification, justification, redemption etc. is always a gift. It is not something you can do by yourself, whether in this life or the next.

By the way, I don’t believe that you are a Mormon, let alone a Mormon bishop! The doctrine you teach is pure Evangelicalism. It is completely alien to LDS theology, doctrine, and culture. And the diligence, single-mindedness, and perseverance with which you promote it puts you straight out of the Evangelical school. With that theology and ideology, you wouldn't last five minutes as a Mormon bishop. But you appear to have an interesting agenda. You appear to believe that you can persuade Mormons to believe in Evangelical theology out of the Mormon revelation! I don’t think that you can; but you are welcome to try. So I hope that you won’t get banned. But it is important for others who are replying to you to know what they are up against, so they are not led up the garden path by you either. Good luck with pushing your agenda!

[DBMormon]

Zerinus - there are as many scriptures to prove my point as well. I guess we will have to part ways and simply agree to disagree. I have shared several talks and quotes from Leaders that seem to agree with my view. I also know there are some talks that are very fundamental that would side with you. I also know of several quotes including out of church manuals that say perfection in this life is impossible. so we are both adament, and I will leave it at that

God Bless you

[Cobalt-70]

Incorrect. Sanctification, whether it is done on this life or the next, it is done by the grace of God. There is no such thing as “standing on your own feet”. Salvation, sanctification, justification, redemption etc. is always a gift. It is not something you can do by yourself, whether in this life or the next.

It sounds like you believe that grace is a gift, but that Jesus' grace is limited, and it isn't enough to get you into heaven. Aren't you saying that your works can get you at least part way to heaven on your own merits without the help of Jesus?

What is your theory as to how works can (partially) save us? Are you saying that good works partially erase our sins, or erase some of our sins? Or do you believe that only the grace of Jesus that can erase our sins?

[Cobalt-70]

By the way, I don’t believe that you are a Mormon, let alone a Mormon bishop! The doctrine you teach is pure Evangelicalism. It is completely alien to LDS theology, doctrine, and culture. And the diligence, single-mindedness, and perseverance with which you promote it puts you straight out of the Evangelical school. With that theology and ideology, you wouldn't last five minutes as a Mormon bishop. But you appear to have an interesting agenda. You appear to believe that you can persuade Mormons to believe in Evangelical theology out of the Mormon revelation! I don’t think that you can; but you are welcome to try. So I hope that you won’t get banned. But it is important for others who are replying to you to know what they are up against, so they are not led up the garden path by you either. Good luck with pushing your agenda!

There is nothing distinctly Evangelical about sola gratia. This is accepted by nearly all of Christianity, including Catholics, mainline Protestants, Evangelicals, and 19th century Mormonism--with 20th century Mormonism being just about the sole exception.

[DBMormon]

By the way, I don’t believe that you are a Mormon, let alone a Mormon bishop! The doctrine you teach is pure Evangelicalism. It is completely alien to LDS theology, doctrine, and culture. And the diligence, single-mindedness, and perseverance with which you promote it puts you straight out of the Evangelical school. With that theology and ideology, you wouldn't last five minutes as a Mormon bishop. But you appear to have an interesting agenda. You appear to believe that you can persuade Mormons to believe in Evangelical theology out of the Mormon revelation! I don’t think that you can; but you are welcome to try. So I hope that you won’t get banned. But it is important for others who are replying to you to know what they are up against, so they are not led up the garden path by you either. Good luck with pushing your agenda!

1.) I am a bishop. I haven't used that in these threads to brag. I have only mentioned it twice. One wwas when someone asked for others to share their experience and it was relevant. The other was again when people were implying I wasn't whio I said I was. though that doesn't mean anything other then the Lord asked a man with weakness to serve him in a calling. Being Bishop doesn't make me right or better, but it does call for you to not make assumptions about who I am. You might consider taking a step back and approaching this subject differently, at least not implying that because your stance is different, and you must be right, therefore I can't be who I say I am. There are those on here who could verify that and they are welcome to.

2..) You keep telling me your opinion without explaining how your correct doctrine reconciles with what McConkie, Gene R Cook, Gerald Lund and numerous others have written. You are saying I am teaching fasle Doctrine yet I am the one who has thrown out multiple sources for my stance other then a select group of scriptures. While you have some scriptures, so do I. Anyone can take a group of scriptures to defend anyside of any belief. You have told me you don't want to read or give thoughts to other's comments. we all need to be teachable that is where the growth is for both os us. We are all blessed as we come unto him in meekness and humility

3.) I gave you the church's definiton of grace from their website and yet you have not said anything to explain it. Does it not count? Is it false? I will list it again in case you missed it

Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.

Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22 ; 2 Nephi 9:6–13 ).

Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10 ; Mosiah 16:4 ). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of theHoly Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9 ; James 2:17–22 ; 2 Nephi 25:23 ; 31:20 ).

The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27 ).

I agree 100% we must repent, never said we didn't... but like I said repent at the very root means to change. That change only comes as Alma chapter 5 teaches when we exercise faith and come unto Christ.

Edited May 10, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

It sounds like you believe that grace is a gift, but that Jesus' grace is limited, and it isn't enough to get you into heaven. Aren't you saying that your works can get you at least part way to heaven on your own merits without the help of Jesus?

What is your theory as to how works can (partially) save us? Are you saying that good works partially erase our sins, or erase some of our sins? Or do you believe that only the grace of Jesus that can erase our sins?

Cobalt - I know your asking Zerinus these questions but if I am permitted -

can I get to heaven at least partway on my merits - No.

2nd Nephi 31:19 relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

there is ^bnone other way nor ^cname given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the ^ddoctrine of Christ

Helaman 14:13 And if ye ^abelieve on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his ^bmerits.

Now Cobalt- where I believe you are getting it wrong on this subject is it seems your implying that a Christian has to do nothing except to accept Christ. But real faith will always express itself in faithfullness or one whose heart desires to follow Christ and try to emulate him. It is not in the outward works or whether he kept commandment A,B, or C. But in whether he spends his life trying to conform to the master's commands and his example. Whether when he messes up, he feels godly sorrow and changes(repents) One must obey the gospel law. But we must define gospel law. it is we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of theHoly Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9 ; James 2:17–22 ; 2 Nephi 25:23 ; 31:20 ).

they are inward things that express themselves in our outward effort to conform to the Master. Not in the actual tally of the results of that conforming effort.

Cobalt - Do you agree at least on some level Christ does require some things from us to receive his grace?

1.) Is faith required?

2.) Must one repent continually? just once? no repentance required?

3.) is one obligated to try and be like Christ? Try to serve other? Try to be obedient

4.) what are your thoughts on rebellion of the soul against God?

Edited May 10, 2012 by reelmormon

[Cobalt-70]

Whatwould be the point then, why do it, why suffer for your sins. Why are we punished.... to pay a debt. Otherwise he would just send us to a lesser glory and that would be it, yet he doesn't. Sin has a price and if we don't allow the Saviors atonement to pay for it then the debt still remains. Christ is the mediator if we allow him. This goes back to, while corrupted in the direction, the blood atonement that BY taught. It is this principle

Because, circa 1830 when D&C 19 was written, Joseph Smith understood that the punishment one experiences in the afterlife is retribution and punishment from a just God, who rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked. Of course, this changed by 1844, when he stated, in the King Follett sermon, that it is our own minds that damns us and causes us suffering in the afterlife.

D&C 19 says nothing about, and there is no precedent within Christianity for, the idea that God's retribution for sin has the effect of justifying or sanctifying a person, and making them free from sin. Such a view would be incompatible with the idea of atonement in Mormonism, circa 1830.

The soteriological theory of Mormonism around this time, and which is expressed in the Book of Mormon, is the governmental theory of atonement. (See Alma 42:15.) According to this theory, God is a just God, and to appease the demands of justice and uphold God's reign as a just deity, Jesus' suffering was a substitution, or "propitation" for the sins of humanity. Mormons, like Arminians and unlike Calvinists, do not teach that Jesus suffered the exact same penalty that each sin deserves, in a ***-for-tat manner. Rather, Mormons teach that Jesus' sacrifice was an infinite atonement for all humanity (2 Ne. 9:7, 25:16). It covers all sins that anyone has ever committed, or ever possibly could commit. Such an infinite atonement does not require the suffering of any individual as a ***-for-tat restitution for sin.

[DBMormon]

Zerinus -below is the Church Website definition on Obedience.

Would you mind sharing where within the definition below it says obedience to commandments 100% equals salvation?

to me it doesn't but it does say they were given to protect us and are given for our benefeit. Never has 100% perfect obedience to commandments been a direct link to salvation and exhaltation

http://www.lds.org/s...dience?lang=eng

Obedience

Many people feel that the commandments are burdensome and that they limit freedom and personal growth. But the Savior taught that true freedom comes only from following Him: “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32). God gives commandments for our benefit. They are loving instructions for our happiness and for our physical and spiritual well-being.

Additional Information

In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father presided over a great Council in Heaven. There we learned of His plan for our salvation, which included a time of testing on the earth: “We will make an earth whereon these may dwell; and we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” (Abraham 3:24-25). One reason we are here on the earth is to show our willingness to obey Heavenly Father's commandments.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that obedience to the commandments leads to blessings from God. He said: “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20-21). King Benjamin also taught this principle. “I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God,” he counseled. “For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it” (Mosiah 2:41).

Our obedience to the commandments is an expression of our love for Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. The Savior said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). He later declared: “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love” (John 15:10).

Edited May 10, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

Also, there is no scriptural support for the idea that such a person, converted in the afterlife, can thereafter sin.

My issue with most of Christianity is that it supposes that everyone who doesn't choose Christ in this life or those who didn't even have a chance to are just written off, sorry about their luck. They missed out, God knew it, and he was ok with it. Agency, growth, sin, mercy, grace... all must continue beyond the vail.

[Cobalt-70]

Now Cobalt- where I believe you are getting it wrong on this subject is it seems your implying that a Christian has to do nothing except to accept Christ. But real faith will always express itself in faithfullness or one whose heart desires to follow Christ and try to emulate him. It is not in the outward works or whether he kept commandment A,B, or C. But in whether he spends his life trying to conform to the master's commands and his example. Whether when he messes up, he feels godly sorrow and changes(repents) One must obey the gospel law. But we must define gospel law. it is we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of theHoly Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9 ; James 2:17–22 ; 2 Nephi 25:23 ; 31:20 ).

they are inward things that express themselves in our outward effort to conform to the Master. Not in the actual tally of the results of that conforming effort.

That's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that (1) only Christ's grace can save us--which is where I think we agree, and (2) that ultimately it is faith alone that saves us, but that good works are necessary as a manifestation of faith. In other words, you don't really have faith unless you are doing good works, such as getting baptized, having charity, etc. This is what Methodists teach, and it's at least consistent with, if not compelled by, the Book of Mormon. It is also consistent with what Joseph Smith taught later in life, although Smith began to focus more on "knowledge" rather than faith, as the fundamental thing that saves us. But I think he understood faith as a form of knowledge.

This view is very different from the Evangelical view, which says all you have to do to be saved is to confess Jesus as your personal savior. I don't agree with that view, and neither do most non-Evangelical Christians.

Keep in mind that I am not minimizing things like repentance or baptism, etc. Repentance is an outgrowth of faith. So you could say that salvation comes to all who have faith in Jesus, but faith in Jesus requires a conversion at least profound enough that the person repents. Alma 34:15 says, "And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of the last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance." If you don't have "faith unto repentance," you don't have faith.

[Cobalt-70]

My issue with most of Christianity is that it supposes that everyone who doesn't choose Christ in this life or those who didn't even have a chance to are just written off, sorry about their luck. They missed out, God knew it, and he was ok with it. Agency, growth, sin, mercy, grace... all must continue beyond the vail.

I agree to the extent that you are referring to agency, growth, mercy, and grace. Perhaps even sin, at least with respect to those who are not saved. But I don't think that a person who is saved in the afterlife can thereafter sin and fall from grace. Sin is a result of the Fall--it is a result of the fact that in our bodies we are "carnal, sensual, and devilish." Those who die in their sins apparently carry that carnal nature into the afterlife. (See Alma 34:34.) However, if one is converted in the afterlife, or is an imperfect Mormon who receives the grace of Jesus after they die, then they are no longer the "natural man." They are no longer "carnal, sensual, and devilish," and so I think that once a person is in a state of grace in the afterlife, they are assured salvation and will not fall from grace.

To achieve exaltation, of course, they will still need further knowledge and perhaps sanctification in the afterlife, but I don't think we need to worry that they will lose their justification.

What does that mean for agency? Does a saved spirit or resurrected being, or even God himself, have the capability to sin, but they just don't exercise that capability? If a resurrected, Celestial being sins, does she fall from her Celestial status? Or is the idea of sin irrelevant at that point, so that whatever she does, it is not a sin? Does that explain why God can allegedly be responsible for Biblical genocide, murder, and attempted murder? I'll admit that's a bit of a conundrum, and I don't know the answer. But I think that whatever it is, the answer is the same for God as it is for a saved spirit.

[DBMormon]

Cobalt would you also say you agree with New Testament James that Faith without works is dead? that if works (within that person's physical and mental ability) are not present then faith is absent as well? Obviously God is the judge but the scripture is given that we might look at ourselves in the mirror and recognize from how we treat others and act within gospel?

Cobalt obviously we will disagree on the need for temple ordinances but what are your feelings in regards for the need to be baptised or given the Holy ghost as a gift?