Grace, Mercy, And Works And The Revealed Role Of Each

[DBMormon]

cv75..... Amen

[CV75]

cv75..... Amen

Now if I were to challenge my own belief:

Grace, mercy, work and charity are all reflected in Christ’s atonement, which is all He could do. Everything else--the Creation, Millennium, Judgment, and Exaltation, etc.—are reliant on, and lesser in magnitude to the amount of work done in the Atonement. He is our pattern to follow.

How and why does all this atoning power benefit us only after we “labor diligently” (or do “all we can do”)? First, our labor is to live our allotted time in mortality (resurrection follows). Second, our labor is to live through mortality by faith (judgment follows). Third, as faith grows, labor increases (and vice-versa) until the perfect day (redemption follows).

This third form of saving labor follows the relationship between faith and knowledge described in Alma 32:21-37. Just as faith becomes dormant in knowledge, it becomes dormant in labor. So that we not allow faith in Christ to be set aside, we keep it alive by increasing it by applying the knowledge that would otherwise leave it dormant. Application of faith-derived knowledge is manifest in labor. The same with labor, which also produces knowledge and faith; in so many ways labor and knowledge are actually the same thing (“…this is my work and my glory… the glory of God is intelligence…”).

So Christ’s "diligent labor" applies to us after our "diligent labor" receives it, or allows it to, and it is by grace that either are even done in the first place (and under the umbrella of charity)!

[Log]

I'll go with this:

http://www.fairlds.o...-by-grace-alone

It is clear that the gift of salvation was provided by grace, while we were yet in our sins, but that the gift is available only to those who repent and are baptized.... The LDS understand not only the importance of confessing the name of Jesus Christ, but also the relationship of grace, faith, repentance, and baptism in regards to salvation. It is apparent that this understanding was also shared by the New Testament writers, the earliest Christians, and Jesus Christ himself.

[CV75]

I'll go with this:

I was just now reading Alma 34, which shows many ways we must do all we can do (note the many times he uses the word "all," and especally in verse 28; verses 40 and 41 are also significant in doing "all we can do"). All this hinges on verse 17, "call upon his holy name (a requisite of what we do in order for mercy to be granted), that he would have mercy upon you (after we call upon his holy name)."

[DBMormon]

how about Alma 24:10 - 11

And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.

And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

All we can do is keep trying and repent when it goes wrong

[Log]

All we can do is keep trying and repent when it goes wrong

Yep. Which repentance is calling upon God with all our might, mind, and strength to receive forgiveness, and making restitution where possible, and not forgetting to be charitable (note: this is not the same as "having charity").

[CV75]

how about Alma 24:10 - 11

And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.

And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

All we can do is keep trying and repent when it goes wrong

Yes, this is a good one too.

[CV75]

Yep. Which repentance is calling upon God with all our might, mind, and strength to receive forgiveness, and making restitution where possible, and not forgetting to be charitable (note: this is not the same as "having charity").

I would say it is, albeit in a most fundamental form. Just as a particle of faith is still enough to get the ball rolling on knowledge, greater faith and works, the pure love of Christ also has to start somewhere. In addition, charity overarches and supports all other principles.

[DBMormon]

Now in regards to our effort Elder Holland says this

"Obviously as the path of discipleship ascends, that trail gets ever more narrow until we come to that knee-buckling pinnacle of the sermon of which Elder Christofferson just spoke: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” 13 What was gentle in the lowlands of initial loyalty becomes deeply strenuous and very demanding at the summit of true discipleship. Clearly anyone who thinks Jesus taught no-fault theology did not read the fine print in the contract! No, in matters of discipleship the Church is not a fast-food outlet; we can’t always have it “our way.” Some day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation can only come His way. "

the effort required is indeed strenous... but we must press forward with steadfastness. relying wholly upon Christ

Edited May 17, 2012 by reelmormon

[Cobalt-70]

How curious. I wanted to give you a rep point for this sentence alone - because it caused me to consider what it meant for one who has been ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood to become fully sanctified, and a reason why one holding that priesthood might not qualify for sanctification.

But let me just clarify that I think the reference to Melchizedek priests in D&C 88 is a reference to the sanctification that comes as a result of the Endowment. Both men and women are thus sanctified, endowed with "power from on high," and become Melchizedek priests, worthy of the Celestial kingdom so long as they endure in the faith.

[Log]

Well, you can have whatever background thoughts behind your words that you like - I got something useful from them anyways.

Heavenly ordinances do not necessarily correspond in time to the earthly ordinances. For example, the ordinance of the laying of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost may precede, by a great many years, the actual receipt of the Holy Ghost.

An unsealed (speaking of the heavenly ordinance, not the earthly one), endowed Melchizedek priesthood holder is not eligible for sanctification (speaking of the heavenly ordinance, not the earthly one). Neither can such an one be exalted.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Log

[CV75]

An unsealed (speaking of the heavenly ordinance, not the earthly one), endowed Melchizedek priesthood holder is not eligible for sanctification (speaking of the heavenly ordinance, not the earthly one). Neither can such an one be exalted.

But he need not be without hope in this life, as he may yet become sealed and may yet become sanctified. He also need not be without hope in the spirit world, where sealing and sanctification may also ocurr. The Gospel plan allows him to have every opportunity to be sealed and sanctified until the resurrection and final judgement.

[Log]

But he need not be without hope in this life, as he may yet become sealed and may yet become sanctified.

It is logically possible.

He also need not be without hope in the spirit world, where sealing and sanctification may also ocurr.

I cannot find scripture to persuade me that that is logically possible.

Consider:

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

Sounds pretty clear to me. Hope dwindles for divorcees and widowers whom were not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, at the least.

The Gospel plan allows him to have every opportunity to be sealed and sanctified until the resurrection and final judgement.

At least on this side of the veil - not so sure about the other side.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Log

[CV75]

I take “in the world” to mean prior to resurrection (mortality and spirit world). I also take "in the world" to mean outside the sealing authority of the priesthood. This is how either living or posthumous sealings can occur.

Scriptural support: D&C Sections 127, 128 and 138 (principles and procedures regarding preaching to and baptism for the dead would apply to all other vicarious work for the dead; temple ordinances can be considered scripture); and D&C 137 (Alvin would not be in the same place as Abraham if he was not in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage as Abraham is).

Many, many times we hear the same sentiment as that expressed here: “What of the many mature members of the Church who are not married? Through no failing of their own, they deal with the trials of life alone. Be we all reminded that, in the Lord’s own way and time, no blessings will be withheld from His faithful Saints. The Lord will judge and reward each individual according to heartfelt desire as well as deed.” (Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Celestial Marriage,” Liahona, Nov. 2008, 94). I’m confident Elder Nelson and other general authorities have a scriptural basis and support for such teaching.

[CV75]

To focus on the idea that "Hope dwindles for divorcees and widowers whom were not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, at the least,” individual exercise of hope, like faith, may dwindle but the object (Christ) does not. Also, diminishing hope is not an absence of it, and like a particle of faith, can be rewarded with expansion through application.

The sealing by the Holy Spirit of promise can be realized posthumously, whether it is understood to be done by revelation (“calling and election” or “calling and election made sure”), by ordinance (temple rite) or by the ratified record in heaven.

[DBMormon]

LOG - in regards to the article "Salvation by Grace Alone?" by John A. Tvedtnes

my dissagreements are as follows

Each of these passages suggests that grace alone is not sufficient for salvation. Consequently, when reading the epistles of Paul, one must keep a much broader picture in mind.

We read in several places that his grace is suffcient. It is all a play on words. Is his grace Suffcient if we openly rebel against God.....? No, but we are not saying Grace is "insuffcient" just because we won't accept the gift. Of course we must accept the gift. Of course we must try to follow him. But Grace doesn't have to be coupled with any good works checklist to be suffcient. His Grace is suffcient despite my imperfect living regardless of how hard I try... that may sound like heresy but other then Zerinus no one here does their best... no one here keeps the law perfectly... His grace for each one of us makes all the difference. It is his merits and not mine. I am to try and there is some amount of effort that God requires but I see that line as different for everyone... for some it comes easy and they look down on others becasue they seem to not be trying...

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.18

From this passage, it is clear that grace alone is insufficient and that it must be coupled at least with faith and with one act, confession.

I think we must be careful when we say it is insuffcient. I read nowhere the words Grace is insuffcient. I think if Paul were here he would say that internally one must be doing some things, some of which will also express themselves outwardly (faith, repentance, Ordinances) but that any outward action or good work such as Word of Wisdom obedience, tithing, family history work, ect...

That Christ's Grace is sufficient despite one's falling short at keeping the above good works perfectly.

I think Paul tries to tells us that yes we can do all things... but only through Christ's grace which strengthens us. Willpower doesn't get me into Heaven, His power does. There is no bar of performance that must be met

Christ taught that it was necessary to keep the commandments, both in reality and in thought, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.30 When the rich young man came to Jesus asking how he could gain eternal life, Jesus began by telling him to keep the ten commandments, then added that he should give his wealth to the poor and follow him.31 He required his disciples to follow his teachings and commandments32 and said that they would be rejected at the judgment day if they did not do so.33 He declared that “not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven,”34 suggesting that confession of his name, while necessary, is insufficient for salvation.

Mr Tvedtness never seems to touch on that it is through Christ Grace or power that one does what is required of him.

With God all things are possible

Take my yoke upon you.

I can do all things through Christ who strengtheth me

My strength is made perfect in weakness

I will make their weakneeses strengths

Come unto Christ and be perfected in him... then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ

We have to stop seeing Christ as referee who is tracking our accomplishment and rather as a teammate who works alongside us to help us do what is being asked

The apparent contradictions on the question of salvation in New Testament result from the fact that Christ brought the means of redemption from two types of death, temporal (physical) and spiritual, which are described in D&C 29 and elsewhere, and are termed, respectively, “death and hell” in Revelation 20:13-14. Salvation from temporal death is through grace alone. But salvation from spiritual death is attainable, through grace, only on conditions of repentance, baptism, and continuance in good works.

Bruce R McConkie and Gerald Lund both disagree with this reasoning that grace is all that is needed for salvation but not exhaltation.

in Lund's april 1981 ensign talk "salvation by grace or by works?" he says:

"This is an appealing explanation because it seems to provide a logical argument that fits the statements of Paul neatly into it. However, there is a doctrinal error involved here. While the resurrection of the dead is certainly an integral part of the plan of salvation, and is unconditional and independent of men’s works, the term salvation as used in the scriptures does not mean physical resurrection alone. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie has pointed out, salvation is synonymous with exaltation:

“Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek.” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 670.)"

If faith in Christ were sufficient to wipe away our sins, would the Bible specify that baptism is for the remission of sins?58 Jesus indicated that rebirth by water and the Spirit were necessary to enter into the kingdom of God.59 Jesus stressed that good works must conform to what God wants us to do: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

While it seems obvious to say that keeping every jot and tittle of the law that God gave is his will, is that really fair? Is it possible that his will is that all his children turn towards and accept Christ, exercising faith, repenting, and trying all their lives to follow him regardless of how far short each of us are able to different degrees to do that. The law is the Schoolmaster. It is to point us to Christ and to show us good and evil.... I am not under the law but faith. I do not spend my days trying to keep the law perfectly but rather utilize the grace or enabling power of Christ to be more and more like him in whatever outward and inward actions that entails

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. And this is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

What is work but effort. Can works be the efforts we make rather then the results that follow. "God looketh on the heart."

The importance of good works is also noted in James 2:14-20, where we read that “faith without works is dead” and that we must demonstrate our faith by our works.

Again to me Faith without effort is dead. Results vary so much from person to person and though may be an indicator, it is faith and effort that can really only be a real measuring stick. And Only God can see those..... Man see works, God sees the heart and the effort it makes

To me Works = efforts not good deeds though we all know real faith will express itself in Faithfullness

Edited May 22, 2012 by reelmormon

[Log]

RM,

I appreciate your disagreement with Tvetdnes. However, the paper I linked to in your doctrine of christ thread wasn't this paper - was it?

[CASteinman]

One of the ways that a doctrinal discussion like this can err, is through attempts at comprehensive systematic theology.

The writings of one prophet or apostle -- or one age vs another -- may not be in exact harmony, or a harmony found may not be real.

The spirit must teach.

[DBMormon]

Sorry Log... your right. I was addressing one of the papers you sent me on this thread. I will read the other tomorrow and share my thoughts

Edited May 22, 2012 by reelmormon

[Cobalt-70]

LOG - in regards to the article "Salvation by Grace Alone?" by John A. Tvedtnes

my dissagreements are as follows

Much of what Tvedtnes says is good and reasonable, but I have some disagreements as well, mainly in the fact that he confuses sola gratia (grace alone) with sola fide (faith alone). Many Mormon writers have done this. Grace is a mechanism of salvation, but the doctrine of grace says nothing about the conditions upon which salvation is granted. Salvation by grace alone just means that the atonement of Jesus is the sole causative basis of salvation. Works may be a condition of saving grace, but works do not cause salvation. I don't think Tvedtnes quite understands this fine, but very important, distinction.

[DBMormon]

I guess my main disagreement as stated before is the trying to split salvation and exhaltaion when in at least this subject, they are defined the same by Paul and BOM prophets

[CASteinman]

my dissagreements are as follows

You are talking past one another. He is not talking about the true concept of Grace. He is talking about the false concept. He does not make this distinction, and that gives you the opening to attack his point, but still -- you are not recognizing the difference in paradigm.

We have to stop seeing Christ as referee who is tracking our accomplishment rather as a teammate who works alongside us to help us do what is being asked

If you fail to recognize Christ as Judge you will be in error.

And its not exactly Christ who is coaching us. Rather His proxies. The apostles -- yes. The Holy Spirit -- hopefully. But not actually Jesus.

Edited May 22, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Much of what Tvedtnes says is good and reasonable, but I have some disagreements as well, mainly in the fact that he confuses sola gratia (grace alone) with sola fide (faith alone). Many Mormon writers have done this. Grace is a mechanism of salvation, but the doctrine of grace says nothing about the conditions upon which salvation is granted. Salvation by grace alone just means that the atonement of Jesus is the sole causative basis of salvation. Works may be a condition of saving grace, but works do not cause salvation. I don't think Tvedtnes quite understands this fine, but very important, distinction.

You post as though TULIP never existed and does not exit. You also post as though there are no commandments required to be obeyed.

It is false notion that we do nothing for our salvation. We absolutely do. It is required that we do things for our salvation. And indeed... where much is given MUCH is REQUIRED. And yet, it is always possible for Much or Little to be given and yet the REQUIRED response (much or little) may not be forthcoming and so, Salvation in the Kingdom of God is lost.

Edited May 22, 2012 by CASteinman

[Anakin7]

You post as though TULIP never existed and does not exit. You also post as though there are no commandments required to be obeyed.

It is false notion that we do nothing for our salvation. We absolutely do. It is required that we do things for our salvation. And indeed... where much is given MUCH is REQUIRED. And yet, it is always possible for Much or Little to be given and yet the REQUIRED response (much or little) may not be forthcoming and so, Salvation in the Kingdom of God is lost.

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive - http://www.mormonwiki.com/Grace_of_God

Edited May 22, 2012 by Anakin7

[CASteinman]

I guess my main disagreement as stated before is the trying to split salvation and exhaltaion when in at least this subject, they are defined the same by Paul and BOM prophets

It appears to me that you are of the opinion that when Paul taught that: "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead" -- that he was not talking about different degrees of Salvation.

And you may, possibly, also have a disagreement with Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ who also split things up along similar lines.