Was My Mormon Ancestor'S Tithing Used To Build City Creek Mall?

[Darth_Bill]

Just as the critics are not appeased, neither are the apologists. If it was found that the church did "park" money in the mall, they would say it helped the economy...oh wait, they already made that point. If it was found it wasn't, well, the critics would say it was indirect...oh wait, that's been said.

You all are extremists and fundimentalists.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Minos
thread ban

[Jeff K.]

Apparently if you take away Darth Bill's toys by showing him is argument is irrelevant, you are an extremist.

[Freedom]

what about the criticism that the Church has only spent 1 billion, as per the welfare fact sheet, on humanitarian aid yet 5 billion on this mall thing?

http://www.providentliving.org/ under welfare fact sheet

I see two responses. One is that the funds for the mall did not come from tithing, and second, the investment is just that, an investment. It is a business venture to make a return on the capital expended.

[oats]

Perhaps they should have built a hospital or prison. Either options seems much more lucrative than a shopping center. Life and freedom are trading for a nice premium these days in the good ol USA.

[LDSToronto]

I doubt any tithing money from today's members have made it into the mall. I am more concerned that I can pull up at least half a dozen scriptures from The Book of Mormon that seem to condemn the mall. Scriptures like Mormon 8:37.

H.

[Pahoran]

I doubt any tithing money from today's members have made it into the mall. I am more concerned that I can pull up at least half a dozen scriptures from The Book of Mormon that seem to condemn the mall. Scriptures like Mormon 8:37.

H.

Why should that concern you, since you don't believe in the Book of Mormon anyway?

There are two kinds of dialogue you can have with someone who believes differently than you do. These are:

1. Honest dialogue; and
   
2. Using their scriptures as a bludgeon to beat them with.
   

There is no overlap between them.

Regards,

Pahoran

[LDSToronto]

Why should that concern you, since you don't believe in the Book of Mormon anyway?

There are two kinds of dialogue you can have with someone who believes differently than you do. These are:

1. Honest dialogue; and
   
2. Using their scriptures as a bludgeon to beat them with.
   

There is no overlap between them.

OK, I choose 1. Let's talk honest. The Book of Mormon seems to condemn the mall; Mormon 8:37 is an example. Please reconcile.

H.

[selek1]

I am more concerned that I can pull up at least half a dozen scriptures from The Book of Mormon that seem to condemn the mall. Scriptures like Mormon 8:37.

Even the devil can quote Scripture to his own purpose.

The more salient question is why- given your posting history and numerous instances of fraud, willful deceit, and substantive contextual abuse- any faithful Latter-day Saint should consider your interpretation to be valid?

Why should we take the word of an avowed and proud enemy of the Church over that of the Lord's anointed?

[Jeff K.]

Note he hasn't given an interpretation. He merely insinuates. Typical.

[LDSToronto]

Even the devil can quote Scripture to his own purpose.

The more salient question is why- given your posting history and numerous instances of fraud, willful deceit, and substantive contextual abuse- any faithful Latter-day Saint should consider your interpretation to be valid?

Why should we take the word of an avowed and proud enemy of the Church over that of the Lord's anointed?

I didn't tell you how to interpret the scripture, I merely pointed it out and told you how I feel. I could quote other scriptures that are stronger in their condemnation, but why not answer the question - tell me why my interpretation is incorrect, instead of telling me what you think I am.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

H.

[Pahoran]

OK, I choose 1. Let's talk honest.

Please do.

The Book of Mormon seems to condemn the mall; Mormon 8:37 is an example. Please reconcile.

H.

Thank you for that demonstration. You say you're going to speak honestly, and then you use a scripture you don't believe in as a bludgeon against your ideological opponents.

Got it.

Mormon 8:

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

I see no connection.

The mall has two purposes that I am aware of:

1) To invest the Church's surplus funds in a prudent manner;

2) To ensure that the area immediately surrounding its headquarters does not succumb to urban blight.

Mormon 8:37 doesn't seem to be aware of the concept of a church as a corporate entity. And it clearly does not say that the most important of our temples should be surrounded by a decaying inner-city slum, does it?

If you disagree, feel free to put forward your interpretation. Or do you prefer to keep it safe from scrutiny?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Sky]

OK, I choose 1. Let's talk honest. The Book of Mormon seems to condemn the mall; Mormon 8:37 is an example. Please reconcile.

H.

It's not just a mall - it's a place where people will live and work in a sparkling clean environment. The whole city and the state of Utah will benefit from it. If the Church did nothing, it could have turned into a slum with dilapidated old buildings. Is that what you want?

[LDSToronto]

Even the devil can quote Scripture to his own purpose.

Never took you to be a fan of the Bard, Selek!

Mark you this, Bassanio,

The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.

An evil soul producing holy witness

Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,

A goodly apple rotten at the heart:

O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!

H.

[LDSToronto]

It's not just a mall - it's a place where people will live and work in a sparkling clean environment. The whole city and the state of Utah will benefit from it. If the Church did nothing, it could have turned into a slum with dilapidated old buildings. Is that what you want?

Well, as a Canadian, I don't particularly care about Salt Lake City's downtown core any more or any less than say, downtown Detroit's core, and I care a lot more about Toronto's downtown core and economy.

H.

[selek1]

Hmmmm.....

Let's look at the verses that LDSToronto believes condemns the Church- in context.

awalk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not ^blift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of ^cvery fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love ^amoney, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ^aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that ^bmisery which never dies—because of the ^cpraise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your ^asecret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

Now let's look at the realities of the situation:

Who here has lifted himself up in the pride of his heart?

Who here has appointed himself judge and watchman over the Church?

Who here is spreading the seeds of envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions?

The heart of LDSToronto's accusation against the Church is Verse 37- but has the Church demonstrated that it loves money and substance and fine apparel more than it loves the poor?

Has the Church demonstrated that it loves the adorning of Churches more than it loves the needy, the sick and the afflicted?

I say to you that it has not.

The City Creek Center is an investment in the city, which has (and will continue to) provide meaningul employment for thousands, and which will help to promote a safe, healthy, and growing environment for all Salt Lake City residents.

The revenues and profits generated from the Center will be reinvested in the rest of Salt Lake City, providing more jobs and opportunities and the effects will ripple out from the heart of the city to all of Utah.

While some of the taxes and revenues generated will provide direct benefits to the poor and the disadvantaged, the investment itself will serve to lift people up and out of poverty- rendering them less dependant and more self-reliant.

Rather than simply "feeding a man for a day", the investment will provide thousands the opportunity to feed and clothe themselves for a lifetime- and relieve them of the crippling emotional burdens of dependency and despondency.

Rather than an act of pride or avarice, the investment in the City Creek Center is an act of service, of prudence, and of vision.

Has the Church sold itself for that which will canker? Hardly- the investment will have lasting temporal and eternal benefits for hundreds of thousands.

Has the Church polluted itself? Hardly- even with the City Creek investment, the Church continues its four-fold mission. Has the Church proven itself ashamed to take on the name of Christ? Not even remotely.

As we can see, the Church is not condemned by these verses, but is instead justified.

It is not the Church which has forsaken the name of Christ- but rather it is her critics.

It is not the Church which is ripened in iniquity, but it is rather the Pharisees who misquote the law and the Scriptures in order to judge unjustly and condemn that which is good.

It is not the Church which has the credibility problem, but rather the liars, charlatans, and Korihors who attempt to sow the seeds of dissension and destruction among the Saints.

Who here is seeking the praise of the world? It is not the Church- but rather those who play "gotcha" games and engage in deliberate fraud in order to destroy the Church.

[LDSToronto]

Please do.

Thank you for that demonstration. You say you're going to speak honestly, and then you use a scripture you don't believe in as a bludgeon against your ideological opponents.

Got it.

I don't believe in The Book of Mormon as a historical document, that is true. That doesn't mean I discount it as a moral tome. I do believe in caring for the poor and I do believe that adorning a church with a mall is morally wrong when the money could go to caring for the poor and needy.

The mall has two purposes that I am aware of:

1) To invest the Church's surplus funds in a prudent manner;

2) To ensure that the area immediately surrounding its headquarters does not succumb to urban blight.

How are those morally superior to helping the poor and needy? Especially #2 - that sounds a lot like adornment.

Mormon 8:37 doesn't seem to be aware of the concept of a church as a corporate entity. And it clearly does not say that the most important of our temples should be surrounded by a decaying inner-city slum, does it?

Are you saying that the church is a corporation and that somehow makes the mall right?

If you disagree, feel free to put forward your interpretation. Or do you prefer to keep it safe from scrutiny?

I think I was pretty clear from the get-go. How about we agree to stick to the discussion? That might help curb your usual nastiness.

H.

[LDSToronto]

Hmmmm.....

Let's look at the verses that LDSToronto believes condemns the Church- in context.

Now let's look at the realities of the situation:

Who here has lifted himself up in the pride of his heart?

Who here has appointed himself judge and watchman over the Church?

Who here is spreading the seeds of envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions?

The heart of LDSToronto's accusation against the Church is Verse 37- but has the Church demonstrated that it loves money and substance and fine apparel more than it loves the poor?

Has the Church demonstrated that it loves the adorning of Churches more than it loves the needy, the sick and the afflicted?

I say to you that it has not.

Then show me how much the mall cost versus how much the Church has spent on humanitarian aid over the past 25 years. Let me fill in the latter number - 1.3 billion over 25 years. That is 52 million per year. Some estimates peg the mall cost to be near 5 billion.

H.

[Tepui]

I don't believe in The Book of Mormon as a historical document, that is true. That doesn't mean I discount it as a moral tome. I do believe in caring for the poor and I do believe that adorning a church with a mall is morally wrong when the money could go to caring for the poor and needy.

Tell us how the money should go to caring for the poor and needy. Through which venue? If you were poor and needy, would you accept assistance from the LDS Church?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Tepui

[LDSToronto]

Tell us how the money should go to caring for the poor and needy. Through which venue? If you were poor and needy, would you accept assistance from the LDS Church?

There are so many ways that billions of dollars can help the poor and needy. And yes, if I were poor and needy, I wouldn't care much about where the help came from.

H.

[sunstoned]

Then show me how much the mall cost versus how much the Church has spent on humanitarian aid over the past 25 years. Let me fill in the latter number - 1.3 billion over 25 years. That is 52 million per year. Some estimates peg the mall cost to be near 5 billion.

H.

I guess it is all about priorities. Since the financial books of the Church are closed, including where donations go. We really can only guess on where the 5 billion came from.

[selek1]

Then show me how much the mall cost versus how much the Church has spent on humanitarian aid over the past 25 years. Let me fill in the latter number - 1.3 billion over 25 years. That is 52 million per year. Some estimates peg the mall cost to be near 5 billion.

This is, of course, a cynical bit of false dichotomy- and a tired, trite attack that has been vomited up many, many times in the past.

It is predicated on the idea that the Church must either spend the money on the poor or on the City Creek Center.

This is false (but you already knew that).

As already stated, the investment in the City Creek Center will enhance- not detract from- the Church's humanitarian efforts.

But since we're engaged in the politics of envy anyway, what percentage of YOUR income has gone to the poor and needy?

Do you spend more per annum on your mortgage than you give to the poor?

If so, then you, too, are "condemned" by verse 37.

As such, until you deal with the beam in your eye, you are singularly unqualified to comment on the alleged speck in ours.

Edited March 23, 2012 by selek1

[Jeff K.]

Then show me how much the mall cost versus how much the Church has spent on humanitarian aid over the past 25 years. Let me fill in the latter number - 1.3 billion over 25 years. That is 52 million per year. Some estimates peg the mall cost to be near 5 billion.

H.

No need to show you anything. Your argument was the interpretation of scripture from a book you don't believe is true. A small short term investment means nothing when compared to the amount spent on missionary work, which is of much greater value. So you really have no point beyond a rather weak interpretation of scripture and what can only be classified as a dishonest argument.

[Jeff K.]

I guess it is all about priorities. Since the financial books of the Church are closed, including where donations go. We really can only guess on where the 5 billion came from.

Why should the church open its books to people who have no part in its plan? I don't open my check book to the vague interest of fools and gossips. Why should God opne his to similar groups?

[Jeff K.]

There are so many ways that billions of dollars can help the poor and needy. And yes, if I were poor and needy, I wouldn't care much about where the help came from.

H.

They hypocrisy displayed by that statement is thick.

There are so many ways the tens and hundreds you hoard that can help the needy and poor, and yes the poor and needy would even accept your money. I somehow don't think you are running to the bank to withdraw it though. But thanks for once again living up to the sullied reputation you have established here.

[JAHS]

That's how it would be used in a "rainy day," but until the rainy day, the money has to be put somewhere, and the church probably doesn't want to just deposit it with bankers. They'd rather make more lucrative investments in real estate, etc.

That's something that you can only speculate about since we are not privy to the details on how the church handles the money. However, I know the character of the people running the church and am quite sure that if they say tithing money is not used for the building of things like the mall I can believe them. Even if they did invest extra tithing dollars in something I am sure that the returns on the investments are only used for religious purposes.