asbestosman Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 This topic probably needs more care than I'm able to give it. It was prompted by last week which wasn't my greatest of weeks (not quite my worst though). Things could have been much worse. The snow and ice made it difficult to travel when I was trying to catch a plane for a funeral (of a great aunt who lived a long fulfilling life). Sadly all flights I was on were cancelled. Add to that some physical pain my wife is going through. I don't think things are as bad as it was for Job or the Savior on the cross. Things aren't even as bad as they were two years ago. However, it's still not fun.I can certainly count our blessings. We didn't have an accident on the icy roads. We have pain medications. We have the help of family and friends. We didn't lose electricity.But I'm still left asking myself, what is the purpose of pain? Sometimes it almost seems like the purpose of life is to endure pain. Why? Why did the atonement require pain? Why does childbirth require pain? What grand purpose is there in pain? If pain was less prevalent, what would we lose? Do we lose something when we use pain medication? If not, why do we need pain at all? Why couldn't the ice storm have been this week?
JDave Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 My first thought is that experiencing pain helps us have empathy for others when they experience pain. But that still leaves the question hanging...It seems to me that pain is simply an inherent part of existence.
Bernard Gui Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 I agree it teaches empathy. Also patience, endurance, humility. Without pain, would we appreciate good times? (Lehi's oppositionin all things). Also pain teaches us to avoid harmful things. I don't know which is worse...spiritual, physical, or emotional pain. They'reall pretty bad. Sitting here now, relatively healthy and pain free, I look back on painful times and I'm very grateful for the relief that comesand for the remedies with which we have been provided. Bernard 1
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Yep, Jack Nicholson was wrong. This isn't as good as it gets. This is bad as it gets.
mfbukowski Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 I have actually been thinking about starting a thread like this one now for a few years. I have had quite a bit of pain in my life for various reasons I will not go into, but I think the idea that life is about pain, and most importantly overcoming it, is quite profoundEverything worthwile in life involves pain to one degree or another. Even learning your multiplication tables as a kid is painful. We all learn best I think in the "school of hard knocks", at least I think I am doomed to do so!But even the idea of the atonement and the whole idea of sacrifice is embodied in the idea of transformation of something bad into something incredibly good.Somehow, that is what it is all about.
mfbukowski Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 The wages of sin are death, but we are here to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.Through the savior's pain, and sacrifice, we are healed. We often look at those doctrinally and think- "I don't get it- why did he have to die- for my sins? Why did his death save me from my sins?"We miss the great cosmic principle embodied in the teaching- through overcoming pain, we all rise triumphant.
asbestosman Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 But if pain is so wonderful, how much of a disservice are we doing if we try to prevent others from experiencing pain whether by way of warning, aid, or whatnot? What is the need for patience or endurance if we don't have pain?On the other hand, granting pain is necessary, I just have to wonder whether it needs to be so--well--painful. Couldn't we appreciate the good times without the bad being quite so bad? My bad times don't compare to those of many others.Let's look at it another way. In D&C 19 we read that Jesus suffered so that we won't have to if we repent. If we don't repent, then we have to suffer like He did. So there we see that avoiding suffering can be a good thing. And yet we're told that suffering is necessary and we'll miss out if we don't suffer. Can't we suffer less and still become like God? Doesn't D&C 19 seem to imply that we can avoid suffering like Jesus suffered and still become what God wants us to become? 1
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 But if pain is so wonderful, how much of a disservice are we doing if we try to prevent others from experiencing pain whether by way of warning, aid, or whatnot? What is the need for patience or endurance if we don't have pain?Pain is not wonderful. It is an evil. There just are such things as necessary evils.On the other hand, granting pain is necessary, I just have to wonder whether it needs to be so--well--painful. Couldn't we appreciate the good times without the bad being quite so bad? My bad times don't compare to those of many others.I imagine it does or God is intentionally making it worse then it has to be.Let's look at it another way. In D&C 19 we read that Jesus suffered so that we won't have to if we repent. If we don't repent, then we have to suffer like He did. So there we see that avoiding suffering can be a good thing. And yet we're told that suffering is necessary and we'll miss out if we don't suffer. Can't we suffer less and still become like God? Doesn't D&C 19 seem to imply that we can avoid suffering like Jesus suffered and still become what God wants us to become?We can avoid that level of pain. Pain shouldn't be endured more then is absolutely necessary. We also are not God and should not inflict pain in his service. Our orders are clear. We are to mitigate it and avoid it as much as possible with ourself and others (unless that conflicts with other duties). I trust God will give us the experiences we need without us needing to engage is self-flaggelation.
mfbukowski Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 But if pain is so wonderful, how much of a disservice are we doing if we try to prevent others from experiencing pain whether by way of warning, aid, or whatnot? What is the need for patience or endurance if we don't have pain?Well there is a lot of truth to that imo- we are certaintly not to "enable" addicts for example, by giving them money to keep their habits going (an extreme example of course- but we do "enable" people) Doing wrong things leads to painful consequences, Yet I think ethically we need to try to help others mitigate pain even if they have brought it on themselves- it's kind of a balancing act, I think.Let's look at it another way. In D&C 19 we read that Jesus suffered so that we won't have to if we repent. If we don't repent, then we have to suffer like He did. So there we see that avoiding suffering can be a good thing. And yet we're told that suffering is necessary and we'll miss out if we don't suffer. Can't we suffer less and still become like God? Doesn't D&C 19 seem to imply that we can avoid suffering like Jesus suffered and still become what God wants us to become?I don't think we can possibly "redeem ourselves" by suffering- there are those in other belief systems that do self-flagellation etc which I find really perverse.Clearly we can never even comprehend what he suffered for us.
asbestosman Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 I imagine it does or God is intentionally making it worse then it has to be.Putting it that way, it would seem that your conclusion logically follows. However, why do some have to endure more pain than others? I'm glad that I don't have to watch my family slowly starve to death in a war-ravaged country. I'm glad I didn't have to bury my family on the plains like some of the pioneers. I know I've got it relatively good. Yet I wish I could have been born during the Millennium. I wish I could have avoided some foolish decisions.I wish I could learn empathy without pain--in fact I'm not so sure pain is a requirement for empathy. While it seems a cruel irony that some of the nicest people are those who have endured the most pain, pain can also harden people. Furthermore, I'm not sure that the nicest people are always those who have suffered the most.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 I have actually been thinking about starting a thread like this one now for a few years. I have had quite a bit of pain in my life for various reasons I will not go into, but I think the idea that life is about pain, and most importantly overcoming it, is quite profound ...Or at least, striving to?
Stargazer Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Of course pain has a purpose, but the purpose of life isn't pain.Sometimes (sometimes?) people can get off on the wrong tangent about things. Pain is there because as physical organisms it is required in order to keep us alive. If the heat of the stove did not cause pain then you would sit on it and it would burn your backside off and you'd be like, "What was that?" looking like you had just run into a mystery wrapped in an enigma. With pain you leap off immediately with some minor burns thinking "Crap! I'm not going to sit down again without checking first!"The fact that you have pain that doesn't teach you anything other than to appreciate good health is nothing more than a side-effect. You can't have it both ways. If you could shut pain off, you might think that would be nice (and so would I), but it would be fatal to an organism to be able to do it -- otherwise evolution would have provided a way. That's the way it is.So don't go off half-cocked trying to grok the obvious as if it were a mystery. It hurts because it has to. Anything else is metaphysical claptrap.Besides, you think you got pain now? Just you wait. If you don't repent, you get pain that caused Christ, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain and wish to shrink from the cup. How hard to bear, you know not, how exquisite you know not. What you got now is NOTHING in comparison. A mosquito bite in comparison.
bluebell Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Here are two Conference Talks which speak specifically to the issues of the purposes of pain. Hopefully they will help.http://lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-atonement-covers-all-pain?lang=eng&query="the+purpose+of+pain"http://lds.org/ensign/1998/11/healing-soul-and-body?lang=eng&query="the+purpose+of+pain"Sorry that i don't know how to rename the links but the first one is "The Atonement covers all pain" by Kent F. Richards and the second one is "Healing Body and Soul" by Robert D. Hales.
thesometimesaint Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Those born in the Millenium will have their own set of challenges. They will be just not our challenges.
mercyngrace Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something. Seriously, in order to know the sweet we have to taste the bitter. And something unfathomably sweet is in the making, asbestosman.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 But if pain is so wonderful, how much of a disservice are we doing if we try to prevent others from experiencing pain whether by way of warning, aid, or whatnot?Depends on the source of the pain. If it's the result of a choice, I don't know a single parent who would tell a child, "Go ahead and touch that hot stove, honey. Pain is wonderful." What is the need for patience or endurance if we don't have pain?Indeed. I've never read the book, but I like the title: "Pain is Inevitable; Misery is Optional." Often, we can't choose our circumstances; we can only choose our reaction to them.On the other hand, granting pain is necessary, I just have to wonder whether it needs to be so--well--painful. Couldn't we appreciate the good times without the bad being quite so bad?Short answer? No. Let's look at it another way. In D&C 19 we read that Jesus suffered so that we won't have to if we repent. If we don't repent, then we have to suffer like He did. So there we see that avoiding suffering can be a good thing. And yet we're told that suffering is necessary and we'll miss out if we don't suffer. Can't we suffer less and still become like God? Doesn't D&C 19 seem to imply that we can avoid suffering like Jesus suffered and still become what God wants us to become?All suffering isn't created equal. God knows life is going to be painful enough even if we don't make bad choices. He wants us to avoid as much of that kind of suffering as possible, which is why He gives us scriptures, commandments, parents and prophets, and so on.
Deborah Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 This is also an interesting talk on pain http://lds.org/ensign/1983/10/a-willingness-to-learn-from-pain?lang=eng&query=purpose+pain He has a quote from Anne Morrow Lindbergh: “I do not believe that sheer suffering teaches. If suffering alone taught, all the world would be wise, since everyone suffers. To suffering must be added mourning, understanding, patience, love, openness, and the willingness to remain vulnerable.”
Kenngo1969 Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urGVKx3H_Rk
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Of course pain has a purpose, but the purpose of life isn't pain.Sometimes (sometimes?) people can get off on the wrong tangent about things. Pain is there because as physical organisms it is required in order to keep us alive. If the heat of the stove did not cause pain then you would sit on it and it would burn your backside off and you'd be like, "What was that?" looking like you had just run into a mystery wrapped in an enigma. With pain you leap off immediately with some minor burns thinking "Crap! I'm not going to sit down again without checking first!"The fact that you have pain that doesn't teach you anything other than to appreciate good health is nothing more than a side-effect. You can't have it both ways. If you could shut pain off, you might think that would be nice (and so would I), but it would be fatal to an organism to be able to do it -- otherwise evolution would have provided a way. That's the way it is.So don't go off half-cocked trying to grok the obvious as if it were a mystery. It hurts because it has to. Anything else is metaphysical claptrap.Besides, you think you got pain now? Just you wait. If you don't repent, you get pain that caused Christ, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain and wish to shrink from the cup. How hard to bear, you know not, how exquisite you know not. What you got now is NOTHING in comparison. A mosquito bite in comparison.Most pain I experience is not created by physical causes. Most is emotional, spiritual, or mental. Edited January 24, 2012 by The Nehor
stemelbow Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 The purpose of life seems to be many things, if you ask me. We are that we might have joy--which I'd say is the opposite of pain. Also, it seems the purpose is to find unity in God and serve others in hopes they can partake as well. Pain is not the sole purpose, for sure. While there may be purpose in pain, I don't see why we have to limit the purpose of our existence to pain and suffering.
thesometimesaint Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 I think the purpose of life is to give us experience. Pain is just part of the experience.
CV75 Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 But I'm still left asking myself, what is the purpose of pain? Sometimes it almost seems like the purpose of life is to endure pain. Why? Why did the atonement require pain? Why does childbirth require pain? What grand purpose is there in pain? If pain was less prevalent, what would we lose? Do we lose something when we use pain medication? If not, why do we need pain at all? Why couldn't the ice storm have been this week?Pain provides the opposing principle to pleasure or joy. This applies to all the questions. Without the one, you can't experieince the other.
asbestosman Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 Most pain I experience is not created by physical causes. Most is emotional, spiritual, or mental.Says the man who's had kidney stones. That's saying something about the other pains. Ouch.
asbestosman Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 Pain provides the opposing principle to pleasure or joy. This applies to all the questions. Without the one, you can't experieince the other.Well sort of. I mean, that is what Lehi teaches in 2 Nephi 2. However, I don't think I need to experience blindness in order to appreciate sight, nor do I need to experience the great apostasy in order to appreciate the restoration. I can appreciate that others experiences those things instead of me personally.
JDave Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Well sort of. I mean, that is what Lehi teaches in 2 Nephi 2. However, I don't think I need to experience blindness in order to appreciate sight, nor do I need to experience the great apostasy in order to appreciate the restoration. I can appreciate that others experiences those things instead of me personally. But how much would you appreciate your sight if no one experienced blindness or impaired vision?Anyway, I'm not convinced that Lehi is preaching that evil/pain/suffering/rap music were created as a foil to that which is good. It is possible he is saying that good and evil both exist and always have. To appreciate the good it is necessary for evil to exist, but evil doesn't exist for the purpose of helping us appreciate good. Rather, reality just doesn't make sense without both present.So Lehi could be saying, "Sure, bad things happen. That's just part of life. At least those bad things help us appreciate the good."
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