The Purpose Of Life = Pain?

[asbestosman]

But how much would you appreciate your sight if no one experienced blindness or impaired vision?

Anyway, I'm not convinced that Lehi is preaching that evil/pain/suffering/rap music were created as a foil to that which is good.  It is possible he is saying that good and evil both exist and always have.  To appreciate the good it is necessary for evil to exist, but evil doesn't exist for the purpose of helping us appreciate good.  Rather, reality just doesn't make sense without both present.

So Lehi could be saying, "Sure, bad things happen.  That's just part of life.  At least those bad things help us appreciate the good."

Yeah, I'm not sure I like the idea that others suffer so that I can feel blessed by comparing myself to them. It would seem to be a cruel God who blesses me to avoid getting on a cruise where others end up drowning just so I can see how much God likes me. It's a little better thinking that maybe good and bad simply exist and since bad exists we may as well make the best of it.

[mfbukowski]

Or at least, striving to?

Of course!

[mfbukowski]

Most pain I experience is not created by physical causes. Most is emotional, spiritual, or mental.

Don't worry.

When you're older you'll probably get your share of physical pain too!

[mfbukowski]

Says the man who's had kidney stones. That's saying something about the other pains. Ouch.

Oh, that's very different.

[The Nehor]

Says the man who's had kidney stones. That's saying something about the other pains. Ouch.

Note that I said most of the pain I have experienced isn't caused by physical causes. The worst pain was physical and was those stones. One of my favorite writers remarked that physical pain is like an endless artillery barrage while emotional pain is more like being periodically bombed. The former is always there but you can sometimes adapt to it. The latter you can forget or be distracted away from for short periods but never for too long.

[mfbukowski]

The latter you can forget or be distracted away from for short periods but never for too long.

The worst part about emotional pain is waking up in the morning and realizing that it's still there.

[The Nehor]

The worst part about emotional pain is waking up in the morning and realizing that it's still there.

I don't generally envy non-LDS but in my worst life crises I have envied them their ability to self-medicate the pain away. Only time I ever found the Word of Wisdom to be a burden.

[Tarski]

Pain is not part of a consciously designed master plan. It is a result of natural selection and serves an obvious "purpose" in that respect.

From this perspective we can also guess that pain is probably much worse for humans (we appreciate the badness of the situation fully). If pain was just a sensation associated with avoidance behavior, we humans could rationalize ourselves into ignoring it. Instead, for humans pain runs deep and triggers complex human responses like hopelessness, desperation, frustration, intense distraction from our usual moment by moment goals and whatever else it takes to make us unable to ignore it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that pain is what it is because of some intrinsic property or quality. The very badness of pain came into existence in tandem with the merely sensory aspect. We evolved innate negative attitudes and dispositions toward the mere sensation. (Think about how similar sexual pleasure is on the merely nervous level--all that writhing, moaning and even screaming)

I am also personally skeptical of the notion that one cannot experience joy, happiness or pleasure unless one repeatedly experiences pain as some sort of reminder (does this happen for eternity??)

This is not obvious and in fact seems like bunk.

I think this idea is just a bit of unquestioned folk wisdom that is really just a rationalization to make us feel better about the fact that we have to live with pain. It is most prominently a religious rationalization for an aspect of the problem of evil.

An atheist doesn't need such a rationalization and can consider that it might be quite possible to experience plenty of joy and pleasure without having experienced much pain. I think there have been quite a few privileged people in history that experienced mostly pleasure. But we will need to tell ourselves otherwise. Such people were lucky and most of us will experience pain even if we make optimal decisions. Bad decisions increase pain but we can't always have so much foresight or self mastery.

Again, pain is just a fact of life with an ultimately natural origin. No one thought it up or planned on the idea of pain and it isn't an item on some cosmic blueprint.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Tarski

[CV75]

Well sort of. I mean, that is what Lehi teaches in 2 Nephi 2. However, I don't think I need to experience blindness in order to appreciate sight, nor do I need to experience the great apostasy in order to appreciate the restoration. I can appreciate that others experiences those things instead of me personally.

It is a principle with very shallow and very deep application, as long as there is opposition in any degree.

You would appreciate sight more if you went blind, or even covered your eyes with a blindfold for a few days. Maybe you don't appreciate sight enough, or as much as you think you do. The same with the restoration, if you had nothing to compare it to. At some level you'd have to know darkness to know light, and to know apostasy to know restoration, even if you only know about them.

Appreciation and gratitude are not the determining factors of having an awareness or undertsanding. They are only a form of experieince that opposiiton, or the awareness permitted by opposiiton, allows. People can distinguish between darkness and light without being appreciative or grateful; happens all the time. Appreciation and gratitude are only a form of response to the meaning one attaches to light and darkness or apostasy and restoration.

[CV75]

an obvious "purpose"

Which isn't to maintain a static condition of pain.

[thesometimesaint]

Tarski:

Pain like poverty isn't a sin, but get rid of it as fast as you can.

[Deborah]

You would appreciate sight more if you went blind....

When I got Bell's Palsy, the most difficult thing was not being able to blink my eye. Do people realize how much we take such a simple automatic response for granted. Without the ability our eyes become dry and if not kept moist with artificial tears we can go blind. It was so awful not to be able to close my eye even to sleep. I had to use an ointment in my eye and wear a patch at night.

I have learned to appreciate the most simple movements of a blink or a smile (can't do that with Bell's either). I developed permanent nerve damage, getting only 45% of my movement back (fortunately including the ability to close my eye) and after a year of expensive therapy can smile and almost look normal. But I had to learn to use muscles that were left in a different way. We don't even think about what goes into a smile but when we lose it, it is heartbreaking.

We always ask ourselves why did this happen? Why am I the 3% that doesn't get it back. Why does someone else get cancer, or someone else lose the ability to walk? Surely God doesn't want us to suffer these afflictions but they are a part of the choice we made by becoming mortal. But God will give us strength to get through these things. Sometimes we might even be healed; other times we just need to learn patience and endure. It is part of life but we make the choice of how we will handle these things.

Alma 62:41 expresses this principle: "But behold, because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites many had become hardened, because of the exceedingly great length of the war; and many were softened because of their afflictions, insomuch that they did humble themselves before God, even in the depth of humility."

[CV75]

When I got Bell's Palsy, the most difficult thing was not being able to blink my eye. Do people realize how much we take such a simple automatic response for granted.

Thank you for your poignant example, and showing that meaning is in opposition to insignificance.

[saemo]

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/suffering.htm

Jesus did three things to solve the problem of suffering. First, he came. He suffered with us. He wept. Second, in becoming man he transformed the meaning of our suffering: it is now part of his work of redemption. Our death pangs become birth pangs for heaven, not only for ourselves but also for those we love. Third, he died and rose. Dying, he paid the price for sin and opened heaven to us; rising, he transformed death from a hole into a door, from an end into a beginning.

That third thing, now—resurrection. It makes more than all the difference in the world. Many condolences begin by saying something like this: "I know nothing can bring back your dear one again, but.. ." No matter what words follow, no matter what comforting psychology follows that "but," Christianity says something to the bereaved that makes all the rest trivial, something the bereaved longs infinitely more to hear: God can and will bring back your dear one again to life. There is resurrection.

What difference does it make? Simply the difference between infinite and eternal joy and infinite and eternal joylessness. Resurrection was so important to Christ's disciples that when Paul preached the good news in Athens, the inhabitants thought he was preaching two new gods, Jesus and resurrection (anastasis) (Acts 17). The same Paul said, "If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. ... If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied" (1 Cor 15:14, 19).

[BlueDreams]

Pain is part of experience. Experience is the purpose to life. The significance of individual experiences of pain is largely beyond me. People are different.

Personally, I haven't experienced a lot of physical pain. Most of it is short lived and forgettable. But something I have noticed about pain is that it can be a bonding agent/experience. For example my g-grandmother was dying for a long time (over a year probably two). There was no doubt in everybody's mind that she was passing but her body was taking its sweet time. Often she wasn't all too pleased about it...she was ready to die. Her husband had died eight years prior and she'd lived a fairly long life. Nothing was really holding her back into entering that next stage. Anyways her family is extremely large and all across the U.S. Because we all knew that she was passing, the majority of us at some point or time was able to make their way over to see her despite our distance. For me, it was the only time I got to sit with her so intimately. Usually she was crowded out by other family. When i was with her, she was emaciated, but had most of her mental capabilities. It was a moment that I'd never forget and helped me to feel more connected to her than at any other point in my life. Mine and many others' experiences would have never happened without the fact that she was dying.

Other times what pain I've felt has helped me at times to be a better comfort to others. The ultimate example of this is Christ, who said He suffered all things so that he could succor His people. It is He who will wipe away all tears. That scripture means so much because I've cried and I know He has weeped with me, known me, and loved me immeasurably enough to feel my pain and His own pain for my sake. There is a comfort and solace and love that I honestly don't think can fully form until we've suffered a little (or a lot). Some of the most powerful bonds I've felt in life have come only after or during periods of my life that were extremely painful, whether emotionally or physically. All pain can fade away, whether in this life or the next, but those bonds stay.

There are also personal lessons that can come from pain. One of my heroes in life was a woman with MS. She was in a wheelchair and could barely walk due to her MS. Yet she thanked God for it, because of the many lessons that it had taught her.

Just a few of my sporadic thoughts

With luv,

BD

[Ron Beron]

This topic probably needs more care than I'm able to give it. It was prompted by last week which wasn't my greatest of weeks (not quite my worst though). Things could have been much worse. The snow and ice made it difficult to travel when I was trying to catch a plane for a funeral (of a great aunt who lived a long fulfilling life). Sadly all flights I was on were cancelled. Add to that some physical pain my wife is going through. I don't think things are as bad as it was for Job or the Savior on the cross. Things aren't even as bad as they were two years ago. However, it's still not fun.

I can certainly count our blessings. We didn't have an accident on the icy roads. We have pain medications. We have the help of family and friends. We didn't lose electricity.

But I'm still left asking myself, what is the purpose of pain? Sometimes it almost seems like the purpose of life is to endure pain. Why? Why did the atonement require pain? Why does childbirth require pain? What grand purpose is there in pain? If pain was less prevalent, what would we lose? Do we lose something when we use pain medication? If not, why do we need pain at all? Why couldn't the ice storm have been this week?

You could always follow the Buddhist Four Noble Truths:

1. Life is pain

2. All pain is a result of desire

3. Happiness can be obtained through releasing the desire

4. Desire can be abrogated though meditation on the Eight Fold Path of Enlightenment.

Failing that read Kushner's "When Bad Things Happen to Good People". A great book that is centered in Jewish thought.

[mfbukowski]

I don't generally envy non-LDS but in my worst life crises I have envied them their ability to self-medicate the pain away. Only time I ever found the Word of Wisdom to be a burden.

That just makes it worse.

[mfbukowski]

You could always follow the Buddhist Four Noble Truths:

1. Life is pain

2. All pain is a result of desire

3. Happiness can be obtained through releasing the desire

4. Desire can be abrogated though meditation on the Eight Fold Path of Enlightenment.

Good idea

Gimme Nirvana RIGHT NOW!

[TAO]

However, why do some have to endure more pain than others?

Because we all have different strengths and different weaknesses - and most importantly - different needs. Like with everything, it isn't our job to make sure our trials are equal... but to overcome what we can. Those who have harder trials will be judged by the Lord according to what is just. That, to me, is good =).

Yet I wish I could have been born during the Millennium.

Those in the millenium are going to have their own challenges, just in a different way, as well as many many blessings.

I wish I could have avoided some foolish decisions.

So do all of us, my friend =).

I wish I could learn empathy without pain--in fact I'm not so sure pain is a requirement for empathy.

Hehe, that is true, but feeling pain also intensifies what the true meaning of empathy is. I think I was generally empathetic, even before I went through tough trials. But after that, empathy meant so much more to me. It gave it meaning.

While it seems a cruel irony that some of the nicest people are those who have endured the most pain, pain can also harden people. Furthermore, I'm not sure that the nicest people are always those who have suffered the most.

Indeed, that is correct. It is what we make it. We must choose to make it into a good thing most of the time (empathy) than to a bad thing most of the time (anger). Hehe, I love Pres. Monson's talk on Living the Abundant Life on this one. Attitude IS everything. As is the thing that comes with it - gratitude! =D

[The Nehor]

1. Life is pain

2. All pain is a result of desire

3. Happiness can be obtained through releasing the desire

4. Desire can be abrogated though meditation on the Eight Fold Path of Enlightenment.

The fundamental and obvious flaw in Buddhism. It seeks happiness through ending desire but obviously one must desire happiness to bother with the truths in the first place and abrogating the desire for happiness ends the path.

On a more practical matter if given the option of ending pain by giving up desire I would refuse the option.

In the words of Angel:

"Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... ...waiting... And though unwanted... ...unbidden... it will stir...open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have?

Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank... Without passion, we'd be truly dead."

[The Nehor]

I am also personally skeptical of the notion that one cannot experience joy, happiness or pleasure unless one repeatedly experiences pain as some sort of reminder (does this happen for eternity??)

This is not obvious and in fact seems like bunk.

I would argue that gods don't need reminders. Mortals might.

[Kenngo1969]

Welcome to America's Bloopers and Practical Jokes! (The unedited version of this post was posted in the wrong thread.) We now return you to your regularly-scheduled, on-topic programming!

Edited January 25, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

Yeah, I'm not sure I like the idea that others suffer so that I can feel blessed by comparing myself to them. ...

You might consider yourself more fortunate because you are in what you consider to be more favorable circumstances than others, but whether they suffer as a result of those circumstances is up to them (and whether you suffer as a result of your circumstances is up to you). However dire our circumstances, we can all take the advice Job received from his friends and "curse God and die," or we can glorify God even in the very act of perishing, as did the Book of Mormon's converted Lamanites who were attacked by their former countrymen. You can't always choose your circumstances; you can only choose how you respond to them. Again, "Pain is inevitable, misery is optional."

[The Nehor]

You might consider yourself more fortunate because you are in what you consider to be more favorable circumstances than others, but whether they suffer as a result of those circumstances is up to them (and whether you suffer as a result of your circumstances is up to you). However dire our circumstances, we can all take the advice Job received from his friends and "curse God and die," or we can glorify God even in the very act of perishing, as did the Book of Mormon's converted Lamanites who were attacked by their former countrymen. You can't always choose your circumstances; you can only choose how you respond to them. Again, "Pain is inevitable, misery is optional."

Glorifying God does not mean that pain stops causing misery. If so Jesus's glorification of God means the atonement involved no suffering. Yet Jesus is clear that it in fact was suffering.

I also do not believe misery is optional. Everyone gets some and the atonement, the power of positive thinking, and how we approach what we endure can mitigate it but it will not remove it.

[mfbukowski]

The fundamental and obvious flaw in Buddhism. It seeks happiness through ending desire but obviously one must desire happiness to bother with the truths in the first place and abrogating the desire for happiness ends the path.

Actually they are aware of that apparent paradox, and the "solution" is not expressible in language. That is what koans are for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan

Edited January 25, 2012 by mfbukowski