Jesus And Wine

[volgadon]

Water in the past was tainted with raw sewage and who knows what else.

Not necessarily.

[Storm Rider]

Yesterday in Stake Conference, our visiting Seventy gave an excellent talk, but expressed an view that left me scratching my head.

He spent some time talking about the atonement and the nature of Jesus' "sinless" life in order to enable Him to atone for our sins. He shared his belief that, as a condition of living a "sinless" life, Jesus would not have ever drunken real "wine".

Afterwards, I visited with several ward members and asked them if they had heard the same thing I did, and they confirmed that they too understood him to have said this, and expressed their belief that Jesus did drink real "wine" and that it didn't make him imperfect due to the circumstances of the time. Of the seven people I talked with, not a single person agreed with the Seventy that Jesus drinking wine would be imperfect and thus unable to atone.

Has anyone heard reasoning along these lines in a Church meeting or publication recently? Does anyone agree with the Seventy?

I am probably going to go to h*** for my position and speaking too bluntly, but I find this individual's position untenable and demonstrating a remarkable ignorance of scripture or an understanding of the Word of Wisdom. Of course Jesus drank wine; it certainly was not grape juice. Grape juice does not make people drunk nor does it have a difference in taste so that the better wine should be offered first before the poorer juice. It is unfortunate that a person in a position of spiritual authority maintains and shares such a position with members. Would that he could be corrected swiftly, quietly, and completely so that this thinking is not passed on to others.

When we are promised that Jesus will return to partake of the fruit of vine once again with his followers, he was not talking about Welch's.

[Robert F. Smith]

It was not part of the covenant in 1844. It was not until much later (for some parts, not until the '20s).

Not everything we accept as covenantal is "written".

Lehi

Correct.

In the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, in the D&C, and even in our Sacramental Hymns, wine and bread are specified as the emblems which we partake for the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. There is nothing wrong with substituting water for wine since we are only talking about representation of the blood of our Savior. The same notion has been applied by Jews during Passover, when wine has not been available (as in the Nazi Concentration camps, when water had to be substituted), and the rite is still considered valid.

A far more stringent application of the Word of Wisdom has made of the Saints true Nazarites, who also abstained from wine.

Years ago, at BYU, a Jewish rabbi was teaching Hebrew and obtaining his doctorate in religion. He had to sign a pledge to keep the Word of Wisdom and obey other LDS standards, which he did, although he was permitted the exception of taking wine for kiddush, and presumably for other Jewish rites.

[Robert F. Smith]

There is some thought that Jesus, like John the Baptist, had taken the oaths of a Nazarine, and therefor lived a higher code, including no wine, cutting of hair, etc. But this is doubtful.

I agree, but I think you intended the term "Nazarite."

[Bond...James Bond]

Yesterday in Stake Conference, our visiting Seventy gave an excellent talk, but expressed an view that left me scratching my head.

He spent some time talking about the atonement and the nature of Jesus' "sinless" life in order to enable Him to atone for our sins. He shared his belief that, as a condition of living a "sinless" life, Jesus would not have ever drunken real "wine".

Afterwards, I visited with several ward members and asked them if they had heard the same thing I did, and they confirmed that they too understood him to have said this, and expressed their belief that Jesus did drink real "wine" and that it didn't make him imperfect due to the circumstances of the time. Of the seven people I talked with, not a single person agreed with the Seventy that Jesus drinking wine would be imperfect and thus unable to atone.

Has anyone heard reasoning along these lines in a Church meeting or publication recently? Does anyone agree with the Seventy?

Cinepro,

He drank but he didn't inhale. Or he puffed but didn't swallow. No I got it! He turned the wine back into water in his mouth before any alcoholic molecules were absorbed into his system. There it is.

[Calm]

<br />I am probably going to go to h*** for my position and speaking too bluntly, but I find this individual's position untenable and demonstrating a remarkable ignorance of scripture or an understanding of the Word of Wisdom. Of course Jesus drank wine; it certainly was not grape juice.  Grape juice does not make people drunk nor does it have a difference in taste so that the better wine should be offered first before the poorer juice.  It is unfortunate that a person in a position of spiritual authority maintains and shares such a position with members.  Would that he could be corrected swiftly, quietly, and completely so that this thinking is not passed on to others.  <br /><br />When we are promised that Jesus will return to partake of the fruit of vine once again with his followers, he was not talking about Welch's.<br />

There are fundamentalists in almost any group, those who deny or stay Ignorant of change. It makes for a simpler life, if things do not change, one only has to examine and decide something once. It is a common view among youth, many adults keep that paradigm at least in some areas of their lives.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yesterday in Stake Conference, our visiting Seventy gave an excellent talk, but expressed an view that left me scratching my head.

He spent some time talking about the atonement and the nature of Jesus' "sinless" life in order to enable Him to atone for our sins. He shared his belief that, as a condition of living a "sinless" life, Jesus would not have ever drunken real "wine".

Afterwards, I visited with several ward members and asked them if they had heard the same thing I did, and they confirmed that they too understood him to have said this, and expressed their belief that Jesus did drink real "wine" and that it didn't make him imperfect due to the circumstances of the time. Of the seven people I talked with, not a single person agreed with the Seventy that Jesus drinking wine would be imperfect and thus unable to atone.

Has anyone heard reasoning along these lines in a Church meeting or publication recently? Does anyone agree with the Seventy?

Don't believe it, it was not a sin in his day. Drunkenness was...clean water was quite a problem then, I am sure. I think he is stating opinion as fact.

[Storm Rider]

There are fundamentalists in almost any group, those who deny or stay Ignorant of change. It makes for a simpler life, if things do not change, one only has to examine and decide something once. It is a common view among youth, many adults keep that paradigm at least in some areas of their lives.

Yes, that is true, but for me personally, it is not acceptable that such a position be held by a general authority....unless he agrees to never share it because it is just so ignorant. The reason we try to teach the gospel is so that we do not fall for the foolish traditions of our forefathers, that we learn that silliness is not truth. It is gross error when a general authority demonstrates such a limited understanding of both the Word of Wisdom and the scriptures themselves. Make sure this man goes to Sunday School always, that he reads the scriptures, and before he gives a talk he at least ask others to review his obviously shakey understanding of doctrines.

[Jaybear]

No.

It was not part of the covenant in 1844. It was not until much later (for some parts, not until the '20s).

Not everything we accept as covenantal is "written".

Lehi

I was hoping for something more specific.

If your position is that drinking wine is a sin because it breaks a covenant, you could show:

1. Doctrinal basis for the assertion that breaking a covenant is a sin.

2. Explain when and how Mormons expressly promised not to drink.

Drinking wine, coffee, tea for a mormon, is clearly a violation of mormon cultural norm. Having a 1/3 lb cheeseburger at family summer barbeque is not.

[Senator]

Yes, that is true, but for me personally, it is not acceptable that such a position be held by a general authority....unless he agrees to never share it because it is just so ignorant. The reason we try to teach the gospel is so that we do not fall for the foolish traditions of our forefathers, that we learn that silliness is not truth. It is gross error when a general authority demonstrates such a limited understanding of both the Word of Wisdom and the scriptures themselves. Make sure this man goes to Sunday School always, that he reads the scriptures, and before he gives a talk he at least ask others to review his obviously shakey understanding of doctrines.

SR,

Have you been keeping something from us?????

You work for the church correlation committee. Don't you?

This GA (and many others like him) has created an issue that needs to be taken care of. The revelatory calling and membership sustaining process has allowed to many ignoramouses to slip through the cracks.

We need an GA entrance exam!! No man is worthy of such high calling unless he has his doctrine straight!!

And who better to administer it than the correlation committe.

[blueadept]

It's difficult to know the extent of firmentation of the wine at the wedding at Cana but if it were sinful to drink even any that was even slightly fermented would the Savior have provided wine to the guests at the wedding?

There is the note from the governor of the wedding that "This man hath saved the best wine for last" but still it is wine.

Just thinking........

I can't image that those who appreciate a good wine in Savior's time is much different from those who appreciate a good wine in todaay's time. Proper firmentation is everything and bartenders always watered down the good stuff so that it lasted longer. The Savior served the best.

I've heard story's as given in the OP, but I'm of the opinion that the laity tend not to give it much credence in being historically true.

[thesometimesaint]

blueadept:

Jesus ALWAYS served the best in everything he did.

No added yeast is necessary to turn grapes into wine(It's naturally in the air), but to insure consistant quality high quality yeast is added. Don't know as people knew a great deal about microbiology 2000 years ago.

Edited September 13, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[cinepro]

On a related note, it appears the First Presidency continued to use wine in their sacrament service until 1906:

By 1906, in keeping with the increased emphasis on abstinence, the First Presidency and Twelve substituted water for wine in the sacrament in their temple meetings. (Cited in Bergera, 32; see also Alexander [1981], 79 and Alexander [1986], 261.)

Edited September 13, 2011 by cinepro

[frankenstein]

Yesterday in Stake Conference, our visiting Seventy gave an excellent talk, but expressed an view that left me scratching my head.

He spent some time talking about the atonement and the nature of Jesus' "sinless" life in order to enable Him to atone for our sins. He shared his belief that, as a condition of living a "sinless" life, Jesus would not have ever drunken real "wine".

......

Has anyone heard reasoning along these lines in a Church meeting or publication recently? Does anyone agree with the Seventy?

what is "real" wine?

And no, I do not agree.

[frankenstein]

I wonder if the 70 has ever read Joseph Smith Journal...?

Who would have thunk that Joseph Smith would be the Agent to repeal the restrictive Liquor laws in Nauvoo!

the liquor lobby should pay to have that Joseph Smith quote posted on billboards in Utah.

[Rivers]

Yesterday in Stake Conference, our visiting Seventy gave an excellent talk, but expressed an view that left me scratching my head.

He spent some time talking about the atonement and the nature of Jesus' "sinless" life in order to enable Him to atone for our sins. He shared his belief that, as a condition of living a "sinless" life, Jesus would not have ever drunken real "wine".

Afterwards, I visited with several ward members and asked them if they had heard the same thing I did, and they confirmed that they too understood him to have said this, and expressed their belief that Jesus did drink real "wine" and that it didn't make him imperfect due to the circumstances of the time. Of the seven people I talked with, not a single person agreed with the Seventy that Jesus drinking wine would be imperfect and thus unable to atone.

Has anyone heard reasoning along these lines in a Church meeting or publication recently? Does anyone agree with the Seventy?

If Jesus could turn water into wine, he could probably turn wine into grape juice.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Rivers

[blueadept]

If Jesus could turn water into wine, he could probably turn wine into grape juice.

While I'm quite confident that Jesus could do that, I think Mormons would be the only ones impressed by that one...

Edited September 13, 2011 by blueadept

[Calm]

While I'm quite confident that Jesus could do that, I think Mormons would be the only ones impressed by that one...

[Sevenbak]

I agree, but I think you intended the term "Nazarite."

Thank you, quite right. It's Nazarite, not Nazarene. I think it was the same order that Sampson was associate with much earlier, if I'm not mistaken.

[K-2]

It wasn't until 1869 that Thomas Welch invented the pasteurization process to prevent grape juice from naturally fermenting and turning into wine, and even then, he still called the resulting product "Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine", rather than "grape juice."

[jadams_4242]

Yesterday in Stake Conference, our visiting Seventy gave an excellent talk, but expressed an view that left me scratching my head.

He spent some time talking about the atonement and the nature of Jesus' "sinless" life in order to enable Him to atone for our sins. He shared his belief that, as a condition of living a "sinless" life, Jesus would not have ever drunken real "wine".

Afterwards, I visited with several ward members and asked them if they had heard the same thing I did, and they confirmed that they too understood him to have said this, and expressed their belief that Jesus did drink real "wine" and that it didn't make him imperfect due to the circumstances of the time. Of the seven people I talked with, not a single person agreed with the Seventy that Jesus drinking wine would be imperfect and thus unable to atone.

Has anyone heard reasoning along these lines in a Church meeting or publication recently? Does anyone agree with the Seventy?

read the scriptures a little more carefully.. theirs a very big differance between new wine and old wine..

[Sevenbak]

read the scriptures a little more carefully.. theirs a very big differance between new wine and old wine..

In addition to that, the ancients also had a method of boiling wine, to a thick consistency, that also was a method of preservation. Just add water concentrate.

[Katzpur]

I am probably going to go to h*** for my position and speaking too bluntly, but I find this individual's position untenable and demonstrating a remarkable ignorance of scripture or an understanding of the Word of Wisdom. Of course Jesus drank wine; it certainly was not grape juice. Grape juice does not make people drunk nor does it have a difference in taste so that the better wine should be offered first before the poorer juice. It is unfortunate that a person in a position of spiritual authority maintains and shares such a position with members. Would that he could be corrected swiftly, quietly, and completely so that this thinking is not passed on to others.

When we are promised that Jesus will return to partake of the fruit of vine once again with his followers, he was not talking about Welch's.

Amen.

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

We boil wine even today. We make it a syrup to be used to flavor foods, it still has a little alcohol. BTW put new wine into old skins explodes the skins due to firmentation.

Edited September 15, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Sevenbak:

We boil wine even today. We make it a syrup to be used to flavor foods, it still has a little alcohol. BTW put new wine into old skins explodes the skins due to firmentation.

Thus the scripture...