Jesus And Wine

[zerinus]

Thus the scripture...

I think that the posters here have overlooked this verse:

D&C 89

:

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold

it is not good,

neither meet in the sight of your Father

,

only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

If it is not good; and in addition to not being good, it is also not meet in the sight of your Father in heaven, can anyone think of a situation when that might be otherwise—apart from, obviously, when partaking of the sacrament—or with Jesus when He returns?

[Cobalt-70]

I am probably going to go to h*** for my position and speaking too bluntly, but I find this individual's position untenable and demonstrating a remarkable ignorance of scripture or an understanding of the Word of Wisdom. Of course Jesus drank wine; it certainly was not grape juice. Grape juice does not make people drunk nor does it have a difference in taste so that the better wine should be offered first before the poorer juice. It is unfortunate that a person in a position of spiritual authority maintains and shares such a position with members. Would that he could be corrected swiftly, quietly, and completely so that this thinking is not passed on to others.

When we are promised that Jesus will return to partake of the fruit of vine once again with his followers, he was not talking about Welch's.

You're not going to h***, nor is the Seventy. This isn't the first time that a general authority has conveyed obviously-false and misguided information. It just shows that they are human. They are not called to their positions because they are always right on matters or doctrine, history, scripture, or politics. They are not called to do our thinking for us, or to intercede between us and God. Rather, they are called because they are reasonably-good stewards of an imperfect church until the only perfect one returns to reclaim it.

[Cobalt-70]

I think that the posters here have overlooked this verse:

D&C 89

:

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold

it is not good,

neither meet in the sight of your Father

,

only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

If it is not good; and in addition to not being good, it is also not meet in the sight of your Father in heaven, can anyone think of a situation when that might be otherwise—apart from, obviously, when partaking of the sacrament—or with Jesus when He returns?

(At least) half the reason why wine was included in the Word of Wisdom is because there was concern in that day that anti-Mormons would poison Mormons by contaminating their wine. That's why, in a prior revelation, God told them to make and ferment their own wine rather than buying it from their enemies. That seems to have been a very context-driven concern, given that today with all our FDA inspectors and what not, and Mormons not all buying from the same store anymore, we don't generally have to worry about that. That wine was not absolutely bad is evident from the very next clause of the sentence. How could the symbol of the blood of Jesus be inherently "not good"? If it were, why didn't Jesus choose some other symbol?

[Sevenbak]

(At least) half the reason why wine was included in the Word of Wisdom is because there was concern in that day that anti-Mormons would poison Mormons by contaminating their wine. That's why, in a prior revelation, God told them to make and ferment their own wine rather than buying it from their enemies. That seems to have been a very context-driven concern, given that today with all our FDA inspectors and what not, and Mormons not all buying from the same store anymore, we don't generally have to worry about that. That wine was not absolutely bad is evident from the very next clause of the sentence. How could the symbol of the blood of Jesus be inherently "not good"? If it were, why didn't Jesus choose some other symbol?

Where does God tell the saints to specifically ferment their own wine?

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

We boil wine even today. We make it a syrup to be used to flavor foods, it still has a little alcohol. BTW put new wine into old skins explodes the skins due to firmentation.

And if it's boiled long enough, it become REALLY thick and can be kept for years under a simple wax lid, without fermentation.

[thesometimesaint]

Cobalt-70:

When the soldiers pierced Jesus the Christs' heart it drained both blood and water(The heart is encased in a sack of water). So theologically speaking water is just as aceptable as wine. Plus the Saints have the addedd Scripture that it doesn't matter what we use as the Sacremental Tokens. Afterall it is all repesentational(water for the blood(water)) of Christ, and bread for his body.

[zerinus]

(At least) half the reason why wine was included in the Word of Wisdom is because there was concern in that day that anti-Mormons would poison Mormons by contaminating their wine. That's why, in a prior revelation, God told them to make and ferment their own wine rather than buying it from their enemies. That seems to have been a very context-driven concern, given that today with all our FDA inspectors and what not, and Mormons not all buying from the same store anymore, we don't generally have to worry about that. That wine was not absolutely bad is evident from the very next clause of the sentence. How could the symbol of the blood of Jesus be inherently "not good"? If it were, why didn't Jesus choose some other symbol?

Your argument for the "not good" part is invalid; and your turning a blind eye to the "not meet in the sight of your Father in heaven" renders your motive questionable.

[Nathair/|\]

Where does God tell the saints to specifically ferment their own wine?

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

Doctrine and Covenants 89:6

[Sevenbak]

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

Doctrine and Covenants 89:6

I repeat my question.

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

You'd have to boil it to near crystaline. Even then the closest you'd get is right around 97% of the alcohol removed. Sealing it off with wax would not remove the alcohol, but by excluding yeasts(that are in the air we breath) it could last for a very long time. Simply added water back in would rehydrate it of course but I doubt many would find it tastes very good. Remember that Jesus's guests said he saved the best wine for last.

Because alcohol soluable flavor compounds in food are released with alcohol. Foods cooked with a little alcohol tastes better. But I still don't drink the stuff.

Edited September 15, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Cobalt-70]

I repeat my question.

The scripture says that Mormons were to use wine made by Mormons, from the grape, for their sacrament. If you input grapes and output wine, you inherently need to do some fermentation. And indeed, Mormons in Nauvoo operated vineyards and wineries.

[Sevenbak]

The scripture says that Mormons were to use wine made by Mormons, from the grape, for their sacrament. If you input grapes and output wine, you inherently need to do some fermentation. And indeed, Mormons in Nauvoo operated vineyards and wineries.

That's not what you said. You said the Lord said to ferment wine. That's not necessarily true, nor is it a fact that all wine must be fermented. In fact, Josephus describes "the fruit of the vine" as being specifically unfermented. And obviously the wine that is drank at Passover can not be fermented, as it's considered a leavening agent, which is against the rites of the law. Just some more points to ponder...

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

You'd have to boil it to near crystaline. Even then the closest you'd get is right around 97% of the alcohol removed. Sealing it off with wax would not remove the alcohol, but by excluding yeasts(that are in the air we breath) it could last for a very long time. Simply added water back in would rehydrate it of course but I doubt many would find it tastes very good. Remember that Jesus's guests said he saved the best wine for last.

Because alcohol soluable flavor compounds in food are released with alcohol. Foods cooked with a little alcohol tastes better. But I still don't drink the stuff.

I'm not saying they didn't drink alcoholic wines, I think most did, but I'm just saying there are other options...

[Cobalt-70]

Where does God tell the saints to specifically ferment their own wine?

Look at D&C 27:3: "Wherefore, you shall partake of none [wine] except is made new among you..."

.. After which the scripture goes on about Jesus, Moroni, Elias, John the Baptist, Elijah, Jacob, Isaac, Adam, Peter, James, and John coming down in the Milennium and having a wine drinking feast with Joseph Smith.

Obviously, if Mormons make wine "new among you", you have to start from the grapes and do your own fermentation. You can't just buy pre-fermented wine and repackage it as Mormon Brand^TM wine.

[Cobalt-70]

That's not what you said. You said the Lord said to ferment wine. That's not necessarily true, nor is it a fact that all wine must be fermented. In fact, Josephus describes "the fruit of the vine" as being specifically unfermented. And obviously the wine that is drank at Passover can not be fermented, as it's considered a leavening agent, which is against the rites of the law. Just some more points to ponder...

Passover wine is fermented. Ask any Jew.

[Sevenbak]

Look at D&C 27:3: "Wherefore, you shall partake of none [wine] except is made new among you..."

.. After which the scripture goes on about Jesus, Moroni, Elias, John the Baptist, Elijah, Jacob, Isaac, Adam, Peter, James, and John coming down in the Milennium and having a wine drinking feast with Joseph Smith.

Obviously, if Mormons make wine "new among you", you have to start from the grapes and do your own fermentation. You can't just buy pre-fermented wine and repackage it as Mormon Brand^TM wine.

Look up what "new wine" means. It goes into the new bag fresh. The fermenting happens later.

Wine has several definitions, including fresh, fermented and boiled. (and boiled raisin wine)

Edited September 15, 2011 by Sevenbak

[Sevenbak]

Passover wine is fermented. Ask any Jew.

Not all Jews. Some are more kosher about the law. And given how many different factions there are within Judiaism, not everyone practices the same. The Jews were in apostasy when Christ lived. Why would 2000 additional years see an improvement in that?

--------------

From Rites and Symbols of the Seder: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/uh/uh05.htm

Wine. As in all Jewish ceremonials of rejoicing, such as the welcoming of the Sabbath and the festivals, the solemnizing of marriages, and the naming of a child, so at the Seder, wine is used as a token of festivity. Mead, apple-cider, any fruit juice, or especially unfermented raisin wine, is commonly used at the Seder service.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Sevenbak

[Cobalt-70]

Not all Jews. Some are more kosher about the law.

From Rites and Symbols of the Seder: http://www.sacred-te...jud/uh/uh05.htm

Wine. As in all Jewish ceremonials of rejoicing, such as the welcoming of the Sabbath and the festivals, the solemnizing of marriages, and the naming of a child, so at the Seder, wine is used as a token of festivity. Mead, apple-cider, any fruit juice, or especially unfermented raisin wine, is commonly used at the Seder service.

I understand that the use of unfermented raisin wine is mainly a mid-19th century American innovation. This was during the temperance movement, and in any event, American Jews didn't have access to means for producing good Kosher for Passover wine. By the way, the link you provided is dated from 1923 (during Prohibition).

As to Josephus, I see his reference to the phrase "fruit of the vine," but he is referring to wine, not grape juice. Are there two Josephus references to "fruit of the vine"?

[volgadon]

I understand that the use of unfermented raisin wine is mainly a mid-19th century American innovation. This was during the temperance movement, and in any event, American Jews didn't have access to means for producing good Kosher for Passover wine. By the way, the link you provided is dated from 1923 (during Prohibition).

As to Josephus, I see his reference to the phrase "fruit of the vine," but he is referring to wine, not grape juice. Are there two Josephus references to "fruit of the vine"?

Raisin wine was more frequently used than wine by Yemenite Jews, even for kiddush. This is well attested centuries before Prohibition in the US. Taxes were even levied on raisins in 18th c. Sanaa because of their use for wine-making.

[volgadon]

Also, while it is prefered to use fermented wine for the Passover Seder, those who are unable to drink wine can use tirosh (grape juice) or raisin wine, or even weak mead, which contains no grapes!

[Cobalt-70]

Raisin wine was more frequently used than wine by Yemenite Jews, even for kiddush. This is well attested centuries before Prohibition in the US. Taxes were even levied on raisins in 18th c. Sanaa because of their use for wine-making.

Thanks. So I guess the practice was adopted in America due to circumstances of the time, but did not originate there. Whether it originated during American temperance or during Islamic prohibition in Yemen, these developments were at the very least, post-Rabbinical. There is no reason to think that people like Jesus were using unfermented raisin or grape juice in 1st century Passovers. Besides, unlike in America and Muslim Yemen, there was no shortage of wine in the Roman Empire, so there was no reason to resort to such later technical compromises as raisin water.

[Sevenbak]

I understand that the use of unfermented raisin wine is mainly a mid-19th century American innovation. This was during the temperance movement, and in any event, American Jews didn't have access to means for producing good Kosher for Passover wine. By the way, the link you provided is dated from 1923 (during Prohibition).

As to Josephus, I see his reference to the phrase "fruit of the vine," but he is referring to wine, not grape juice. Are there two Josephus references to "fruit of the vine"?

No, raisin wine was "innovated" long before the temperance movement in America. And this has nothing to do with American Jews. We're talking about wine customs of ancient times.

Look up the 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia's definition of wine, if you don't believe me. There are all sorts. Unfermented varieties are mentioned.

And it goes back long before the Savior sat in a room with his disciples braking bread and wine. Aristotle said 400 years earlier, describing non fermented wine... "it is wine in name, but not in effect..."

Though it wound't faze me much if it were otherwise, it's nearly impossible to say what kind of wine they were drinking...

[volgadon]

Thanks. So I guess the practice was adopted in America due to circumstances of the time, but did not originate there. Whether it originated during American temperance or during Islamic prohibition in Yemen, these developments were at the very least, post-Rabbinical. There is no reason to think that people like Jesus were using unfermented raisin or grape juice in 1st century Passovers. Besides, unlike in America and Muslim Yemen, there was no shortage of wine in the Roman Empire, so there was no reason to resort to such later technical compromises as raisin water.

Islamic prohibition has little to do with it. The ease of production was was what contributed to its ubiquity. In the past you couldn't completely control fermentation, so it would have been wekly alcoholic. I also wouldn't call it a later technical compromise, seeing as it was commonly produced anciently around the Mediteranean.

You are right though that red wine was prefered for the Passover, but it isn't a requirement set in stone.

[Sevenbak]

Cobalt-70, you said:

As to Josephus, I see his reference to the phrase "fruit of the vine," but he is referring to wine, not grape juice. Are there two Josephus references to "fruit of the vine"?

I don't know what reference you were referring to, but here's this Josephus reference to "fruit of the vine". Ironically, he also describes "wine" the same way in the passage, that is, fresh juice. Here's the reference from Jospehus describing Joseph's dream.

http://www.ccel.org/...e.ii.iii.v.html

2. He therefore said, that in his sleep he saw three clusters of grapes hanging upon three branches of a vine, large already, and ripe for gathering; and that he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand; and when he had strained the wine, he gave it to the king to drink, and that he received it from him with a pleasant countenance. This, he said, was what he saw; and he desired Joseph, that if he had any portion of understanding in such matters, he would tell him what this vision foretold. Who bid him be of good cheer, and expect to be loosed from his bonds in three days' time, because the king desired his service, and was about to restore him to it again; for he let him know that God bestows the fruit of the vine upon men for good; which wine is poured out to him, and is the pledge of fidelity and mutual confidence among men; and puts an end to their quarrels, takes away passion and grief out of the minds of them that use it, and makes them cheerful. "Thou sayest that thou didst squeeze this wine from three clusters of grapes with thine hands, and that the king received it: know, therefore, that this vision is for thy good, and foretells a release from thy present distress within the same number of days as the branches had whence thou gatheredst thy grapes in thy sleep.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Sevenbak

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbac:

There are essentially only two things you can do to store grape juice(without modern canning). Exposed to air you produce vinegar(not particularly pleasant to drink), or you seal it in some vessel to exclude air that starts the firmenting process in a matter of minutes, and can last up to a few days. The rest of the time is ageing which allows for evaporation of water and alcohol, and in the case of wooden barrels allows for the migration of wood flavors and estors to enter the the vinegar or wine. Once put in evaporation proof containers vinegar and wine no longer lose water and alcohol. In the case of wine the vinegar bacteria(already present) will eventually turn even the best wines to vinegar.

There is a reason the Sctriptures tell us not to put new wine into old skins, and they are not all theological.

Edited September 16, 2011 by thesometimesaint