cinepro Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Yesterday in Stake Conference, our visiting Seventy gave an excellent talk, but expressed an view that left me scratching my head. He spent some time talking about the atonement and the nature of Jesus' "sinless" life in order to enable Him to atone for our sins. He shared his belief that, as a condition of living a "sinless" life, Jesus would not have ever drunken real "wine".Afterwards, I visited with several ward members and asked them if they had heard the same thing I did, and they confirmed that they too understood him to have said this, and expressed their belief that Jesus did drink real "wine" and that it didn't make him imperfect due to the circumstances of the time. Of the seven people I talked with, not a single person agreed with the Seventy that Jesus drinking wine would be imperfect and thus unable to atone.Has anyone heard reasoning along these lines in a Church meeting or publication recently? Does anyone agree with the Seventy?
thesometimesaint Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) cinepro:I've heard several times in different settings. Didn't believe it then don't belive it now. The simplest of explanations gives this idea the boot. It was no sin to drink wine in Jesus's time, but was to be a drunkard. Just like it is no sin in our times to eat a bacon cheese burger(but eating too many isn't good for your heart), but definitately was sin in Jesus's time for Jews. Edited September 12, 2011 by thesometimesaint
volgadon Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Jesus wouldn't have been drinking strong wine constantly, but there is no doubt that he did on occasion. So, no, I don't agree with the seventy.
Palerider Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Yesterday in Stake Conference, our visiting Seventy gave an excellent talk, but expressed an view that left me scratching my head. He spent some time talking about the atonement and the nature of Jesus' "sinless" life in order to enable Him to atone for our sins. He shared his belief that, as a condition of living a "sinless" life, Jesus would not have ever drunken real "wine".Afterwards, I visited with several ward members and asked them if they had heard the same thing I did, and they confirmed that they too understood him to have said this, and expressed their belief that Jesus did drink real "wine" and that it didn't make him imperfect due to the circumstances of the time. Of the seven people I talked with, not a single person agreed with the Seventy that Jesus drinking wine would be imperfect and thus unable to atone.Has anyone heard reasoning along these lines in a Church meeting or publication recently? Does anyone agree with the Seventy?It's difficult to know the extent of firmentation of the wine at the wedding at Cana but if it were sinful to drink even any that was even slightly fermented would the Savior have provided wine to the guests at the wedding?There is the note from the governor of the wedding that "This man hath saved the best wine for last" but still it is wine.Just thinking........
thesometimesaint Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Palerider:It could be argued that it was wine of his own make.
altersteve Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 It wasn't a sin to drink wine in Jesus' day. For whatever reason, though, God prohibits the consumption of alcohol at the present time.
Senator Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 ...For whatever reason, though, God prohibits the consumption of alcohol at the present time.Well, the church prohibits at least.... 1
Zakuska Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) I hate this excuse to some how Justify the WOW as a commandment. It wasn't given by "command or constraint" but as wise council.When Christ turned the water into wine... didn't the host say "Youv'e saved the good wine till last" showing that it wasn't the watered down stuff but good strong proof alcoholic wine.However, I can see precident for the WOW on the temple recomend questions. The Levites are to drink no wine before entering the sanctuary.Ezekiel 44:2121 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court. Edited September 12, 2011 by Zakuska
Senator Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) It looks to be a case of using presentism's hammer to pound a square scripture into a round, contemporary doctrinal hole. Edited September 12, 2011 by Senator
Joseph Antley Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 I heard this my entire life growing up. "Wine" in the Bible was always just grape juice. Then during my teenage rebelliousness I embraced the cosmic truth that Jesus was an alcoholic.
Zakuska Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) I wonder if the 70 has ever read Joseph Smith Journal...?There was apparently never any prohibition on the sale of beer and ale, and on April 9, 1842, the council acted to license taverns and ordinaries in the town to sell beer but not spirits. But on May 14, [Joseph] Smith recorded, "I attended city council in the morning, and…spoke at length for the repeal of the ordinance…licensing merchants, hawkers, taverns, and ordinaries, desiring that this might be a free people, and enjoy equal rights and privileges, and the ordinances were repealed."[4] Who would have thunk that Joseph Smith would be the Agent to repeal the restrictive Liquor laws in Nauvoo! Edited September 12, 2011 by Zakuska
DH Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Given that Jesus' enemies accused him of being a "wine bibber," I have no doubt that he drank "real" wine with alcohol in it. After all, what would be the point of calling him a "grape juice bibber?" (I very much doubt he was actually a drunkard, but they were using the fact he drank wine and trying to blow it out of proportion.)It was not a sin to drink wine in Jesus' day, and I'll go further by saying that I don't think it's a "sin sin" (insert some voice modulation there) today, either. The Word of Wisdom is wise counsel to help us be healthy and avoid certain problems like alcoholism.
Thinking Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."
Jaybear Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Do Mormons consider it a sin to drink wine today? If so, what is the doctrinal basis to characterize drinking wine a sin?
Nathair/|\ Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 It wasn't a sin to drink wine in Jesus' day. For whatever reason, though, God prohibits the consumption of alcohol at the present time.Well, the church prohibits at least....Do Mormons consider it a sin to drink wine today? If so, what is the doctrinal basis to characterize drinking wine a sin?As I understand it, Father prohibits it except for healing to the covenant members of His Church and especially to those who serve as his priests and priestesses, but not to the the world at large. Therefore, for those who violate their covenants and ordinances by recreational consumption of alcohol, it is a sin, but for those who have no such covenant, it is lawful. I could, of course, be wrong.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Why the quotes?He does it to bait a response. I guess it worked.
Jaybear Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 As I understand it, Father prohibits it except for healing to the covenant members of His Church and especially to those who serve as his priests and priestesses, but not to the the world at large. Therefore, for those who violate their covenants and ordinances by recreational consumption of alcohol, it is a sin, but for those who have no such covenant, it is lawful. I could, of course, be wrong.Which covenant/ordinance is violated when a Mormon drinks alcohol? Where is it written that violating a covenant/ordinance is a sin? Joseph Smith drank wine from time to time. Was he violating the same covenant/ordinance by doing so?
LeSellers Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Joseph Smith drank wine from time to time. Was he violating the same covenant/ordinance by doing so?No.It was not part of the covenant in 1844. It was not until much later (for some parts, not until the '20s). Not everything we accept as covenantal is "written". Lehi
firepatch36 Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Water in the past was tainted with raw sewage and who knows what else. Alcoholic beverages would have been the safest things to drink. 2
cinepro Posted September 12, 2011 Author Posted September 12, 2011 Why the quotes?If drinking wine was not a sin in Jesus' day, than it seemed appropriate to put "sinless" in quotes, since the conditions of being "sinless" were the basis for the claim.
The Nehor Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 I don't get the confusion. The Word of Wisdom clearly states it exists only due to prevailing conditions at THIS time. It could be rescinded tomorrow with no doctrinal contradiction.
Sevenbak Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 cinepro:I've heard several times in different settings. Didn't believe it then don't belive it now. The simplest of explanations gives this idea the boot. It was no sin to drink wine in Jesus's time, but was to be a drunkard. Just like it is no sin in our times to eat a bacon cheese burger(but eating too many isn't good for your heart), but definitately was sin in Jesus's time for Jews.There is some thought that Jesus, like John the Baptist, had taken the oaths of a Nazarine, and therefor lived a higher code, including no wine, cutting of hair, etc. But this is doubtful.
thesometimesaint Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Sevenbak:Possible, but given that Jesus was refered to as a wine bibber, consistantly used wine references, and made water into wine I find it highly unlikely that he didn't drink the stuff.
Sevenbak Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Sevenbak:Possible, but given that Jesus was refered to as a wine bibber, consistantly used wine references, and made water into wine I find it highly unlikely that he didn't drink the stuff.I tend to agree. Whatever he blessed and passed at the last supper wasn't diet coke either...
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