Young Lds Men? Delaying Marriage

[mbh26]

http://lm.deseretmail.com/t/2920995/6300513/690285/13/

I'm trying to fit this report with the data of my own personal life experience at BYU and LDS singles wards. I understand the Church's view that it's up to men to make a marriage happen but it sure didn't seem to me that it was young men who preferred to wait to marry. The view most BYU men I met had was that if you were living the gospel, there really wasn't a field to play in. We had lots of friends and I personally never saw much point in being just friends. Whereas most young women I met seemed to enjoy dating a lot of people and having a longer engagement, and enjoyed the attention of a lot of male friends even if the likelihood of marrying these friends was very low. Most young women complained that men were interested in marriage too soon. It wasn't until many women I met started wanting to have children around 27 or 28 that they became interested in leaving the single life behind and settling down.

Yet I keep seeing these reports that it's LDS men who are purposely postponing marriage. Who are these RMs because I haven't met many. Most of them wanted to marry ASAP but simply didn't qualify financially as being very attractive/eligible to women yet. I'm starting to think it's just another case of what is true and what the Church leadership has judged as needing to be spoken from the pulpit being two different things. Much better policy to keep the blame on the men lest the women get mad at us. Guess what brethren, single men won't always be a dime a dozen for your membership needs either. When you meet more 40 years olds who want nothing to do with you, you might be sorry for how you treated these men when they were in their 20s. As if wanting to get married and not being able to weren't disappointing enough. Now we have to hear double talk from the pulpit as an added salt to rub into the wound.

[thesometimesaint]

mbh26:

In many ways ours is a strange subculture.

[Zakuska]

http://lm.deseretmai...0513/690285/13/

I'm trying to fit this report with the data of my own personal life experience at BYU and LDS singles wards. I understand the Church's view that it's up to men to make a marriage happen but it sure didn't seem to me that it was young men who preferred to wait to marry. The view most BYU men I met had was that if you were living the gospel, there really wasn't a field to play in. We had lots of friends and I personally never saw much point in being just friends. Whereas most young women I met seemed to enjoy dating a lot of people and having a longer engagement, and enjoyed the attention of a lot of male friends even if the likelihood of marrying these friends was very low. Most young women complained that men were interested in marriage too soon. It wasn't until many women I met started wanting to have children around 27 or 28 that they became interested in leaving the single life behind and settling down.

Yet I keep seeing these reports that it's LDS men who are purposely postponing marriage. Who are these RMs because I haven't met many. Most of them wanted to marry ASAP but simply didn't qualify financially as being very attractive/eligible to women yet. I'm starting to think it's just another case of what is true and what the Church leadership has judged as needing to be spoken from the pulpit being two different things. Much better policy to keep the blame on the men lest the women get mad at us. Guess what brethren, single men won't always be a dime a dozen for your membership needs either. When you meet more 40 years olds who want nothing to do with you, you might be sorry for how you treated these men when they were in their 20s. As if wanting to get married and not being able to weren't disappointing enough. Now we have to hear double talk from the pulpit as an added salt to rub into the wound.

My wife waited till she was 28. Yes Im much younger than her and pretty much asked her to marry me six months after the mission. We both worked and put ourselves through school. So it can be done if you're willing to sacrifice together.

My niece, who didn't go to BYU waited till she was 30. And all because she wanted to travel the world and accomplish a few other life goals before she got married. When she was 27 she was dating a guy and heard threw the grape vine that he was going to ask her to marry him. She got all upset and broke off the relationship. Then three years later they got back together through facebook and ended up getting married a few months ago. The funny thing is... the night he planned to propose to her he went with my BIL to the Priesthood session so he could ask her dad first and what was the Priesthood session all about?! Men waiting to get married. LOL

So yes, its been my experience of late that women are waiting. Of course my sisters both got married at a young age, 19 and 18 and both ended up getting divorced. But now are both happily wed in the temple to two great men (unlike there ex's who were kind of abusive and both not very active members to begin with).

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zakuska

[thesometimesaint]

Zakuska:

My mom waited until she was 34. I was 20 and my wife was 19 when we got married 39 years ago in June. We did "Grow up" together so to speak. Now that the restaraunts are giving me the "Senior Discount". I'm not too sure how I feel about that.

[Calm]

If young men aren't getting married, then it's just as likely it's because the women are waiting as the men....unless the stats show that the women are marrying older men as soon as they decide to enter the marriage market and I suspect that it's closer in range with the women about three years younger than the men, which has been IIRC a pretty consistent stat over the years (contributed to by the 2 year mission as well as the maturity rate difference between men and women).

If there are a lot of women out there wanting to get married, a man will be surrounded by such signals constantly and eventually succumbs, but if only half or so want to get marry, he has as many who don't who support the idea of single life is working fine for me just now so why marriage. Need to work on the women's attitudes as much as the men's if you want marriage rates to increase again.

Got to wonder about the chastity issues considering how strong the drive is for men of that age, women too but theirs is not only still rising but was slower in development and so likely imo easier to distract by high activity in school, business, other social environments that don't promote intimacy.

[cinepro]

It's a tough situation.

I have some close friends and family members who are single men in the 30's now, and each has had some really excellent relationships through the years that certainly looked like excellent prospects, but in the end they just couldn't seal the deal.

I'm glad it's not my job to try and figure out how to get the YSAs married.

[firepatch36]

I was 30 when I got married. I wouldn't say I was "waiting" to get married rather I hadn't found the right person. My wife is ~5 years younger than me.

[LeSellers]

I'm glad it's not my job to try and figure out how to get the YSAs married.

Seven times, it was mine.

I am grateful they listened when they were younger, so the job, when they got to that point, was not as difficult.

Only one of the seven was 25 when he married, but our daughter-in-law was 18, so on average ...

Lehi

[Zakuska]

If young men aren't getting married, then it's just as likely it's because the women are waiting as the men....unless the stats show that the women are marrying older men as soon as they decide to enter the marriage market and I suspect that it's closer in range with the women about three years younger than the men, which has been IIRC a pretty consistent stat over the years (contributed to by the 2 year mission as well as the maturity rate difference between men and women).

If there are a lot of women out there wanting to get married, a man will be surrounded by such signals constantly and eventually succumbs, but if only half or so want to get marry, he has as many who don't who support the idea of single life is working fine for me just now so why marriage. Need to work on the women's attitudes as much as the men's if you want marriage rates to increase again.

Got to wonder about the chastity issues considering how strong the drive is for men of that age, women too but theirs is not only still rising but was slower in development and so likely imo easier to distract by high activity in school, business, other social environments that don't promote intimacy.

One other thing I see happening with women is they want to serve a mission too... so they wait till after they are 25 in a lot of cases. Perhaps the 21 year old rule needs to be modified. Of course My Dad was one of the last married missionaries they sent out. He got married and six months later got a mission call was in Japan (Hirosima Mostly) for 3 years without his wife who stayed home and worked and helped finance his mission.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

I'm glad it's not my job to try and figure out how to get the YSAs married.

Well... our progentors resorted to Polygamy.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zakuska

[BlueDreams]

I'm trying to fit this report with the data of my own personal life experience at BYU and LDS singles wards

Well here's mine to balance it out.

I'm 23, a single, and just returned from my mission. From the time I left to the time I returned ALL of my best friends were married....well, except for the guy bestfriends and my cousin....but she's marrying this winter. In my extended friends network, large swaths of my female friends are married. two of them divorced and then REmarried while I was gone. I have somewhere between 4-500 facebook friends and everytime I've gone on I'll see another friend that's gotten married. I just checked to see if that would happen again and sure enough two more faces I hadn't seen married, one with a baby. From my high school laurel's class 2 out of 6 of us are married. 3 of us served missions (none of the ones that are married, served). And 1 is single but most definitely doesn't want to be (considering her personality). Much of our younger peers from HS are married by now. The oldest single people I know off hand at the moment are all men except 1.

Most young women complained that men were interested in marriage too soon.

on that, there were two specific categories of complaint about marrying too soon:

- marrying under 20

- marrying after knowing each other for 1-6 months

Honestly both still freak me out a little.

in general, a more common trend that I see happen among women i know is this: they're averse to the idea of marrying super young (below 20-21). A number of them still do. Those that don't grow less and less satisfied with being single come each year. There comes a point (well before 27, most of my girl friends never made it to that age without marrying) where you really do want to get married and settle down and that sounds far more appealing than any other living arrangement.

Further more, here's some anecdotal evidence that the council might have worked:

And my one best friend (who got married this late spring) is incredibly socially connected. She said that in this year she'd hands down received more wedding invites than any other year by about double if not more.

As for myself, I want to be married for sure. If anything just to stop being the permanent 3rd wheel

With luv,

BD

[katherine the great]

Yet I keep seeing these reports that it's LDS men who are purposely postponing marriage. Who are these RMs because I haven't met many.

My observation is that whenever the church issues a "letter" to be read to all congregations and it leaves all the ward members scratching their heads and muttering, "Huh?" that it has been because of some renegade group somewhere in Utah. I felt this way about the letter that was obviously a reaction to "Impact" training (whatever that is), the warning about "intellectual groups" and independent group scripture study, fraud, Mission farewells, and a few others that aren't coming to mind immediately.

[cinepro]

Well here's mine to balance it out.

I'm 23, a single, and just returned from my mission.

Welcome back! Has it already been 18 months? Did you get to use any of your message-board knowledge and skills on your mission?

[seriously honestly]

http://lm.deseretmail.com/t/2920995/6300513/690285/13/

I'm trying to fit this report with the data of my own personal life experience at BYU and LDS singles wards. I understand the Church's view that it's up to men to make a marriage happen but it sure didn't seem to me that it was young men who preferred to wait to marry. The view most BYU men I met had was that if you were living the gospel, there really wasn't a field to play in. We had lots of friends and I personally never saw much point in being just friends. Whereas most young women I met seemed to enjoy dating a lot of people and having a longer engagement, and enjoyed the attention of a lot of male friends even if the likelihood of marrying these friends was very low. Most young women complained that men were interested in marriage too soon. It wasn't until many women I met started wanting to have children around 27 or 28 that they became interested in leaving the single life behind and settling down.

Yet I keep seeing these reports that it's LDS men who are purposely postponing marriage. Who are these RMs because I haven't met many. Most of them wanted to marry ASAP but simply didn't qualify financially as being very attractive/eligible to women yet. I'm starting to think it's just another case of what is true and what the Church leadership has judged as needing to be spoken from the pulpit being two different things. Much better policy to keep the blame on the men lest the women get mad at us. Guess what brethren, single men won't always be a dime a dozen for your membership needs either. When you meet more 40 years olds who want nothing to do with you, you might be sorry for how you treated these men when they were in their 20s. As if wanting to get married and not being able to weren't disappointing enough. Now we have to hear double talk from the pulpit as an added salt to rub into the wound.

I have always know both LDS men and women to marry young (on average, under age 23), especially in my famliy.

[altersteve]

I'm not married and I don't plan to until after I'm 27 or so.

[Duncan]

I have a PH.D. diss. worth of thoughts about this subject. I know A LOT of unmarried people, sadly they all live in another city that is sucky ducky to live in, which is why I don't live there. Some I am beyond amazed as to why they aren't married, some are drama kings and queens so I am not surprised they aren't married and many married couples I am bewildered they are married-but there life not mine. I wince when I hear girls getting married at 18 or 19 these days. I feel sick when I hear that guys are 21 just off a mission getting married to typically their first relationship, same thing with girls but again their life not mine. I wish that the leaders of the Church local or otherwise would back off when it comes to who marries who and when because they NEVER live with the consequences. I wish the Church would validate singles because look around some people just aren;t going to get married and going to Church and feeling like a loser is not a fun feeling. Right now I am in cahoots with two people, both around 31, that grew up in the Church, served missions, and are teetering on inactivity, one is virtually out of the Church and one is not that close but close and I don't know what to tell them. More to come as the plot thickens!

[BCSpace]

I wince when I hear girls getting married at 18 or 19 these days. I feel sick when I hear that guys are 21 just off a mission getting married to typically their first relationship, same thing with girls but again their life not mine.

I have to take the opposite view because of my experience. I married right after my mission at 21 and my wife was 20. We produced 7 well-spaced children till our early 40's. I get an empty lonely feeling when I think of reducing the amount of children because the reproductive period is shortened by later marriage. Alternatively, some squeeze baby after baby into a short time without allowing for the woman's body (and the relationship) recover. When we hit retirement age, most of my children will be well into their careers which means we will have good support in case we need it. My two older daughters married at 19 and 20. I still have a three year old at home and we are starting to have grandchildren and I'm not even 45 yet.

[Duncan]

I have to take the opposite view because of my experience. I married right after my mission at 21 and my wife was 20. We produced 7 well-spaced children till our early 40's. I get an empty lonely feeling when I think of reducing the amount of children because the reproductive period is shortened by later marriage. Alternatively, some squeeze baby after baby into a short time without allowing for the woman's body (and the relationship) recover. When we hit retirement age, most of my children will be well into their careers which means we will have good support in case we need it. My two older daughters married at 19 and 20. I still have a three year old at home and we are starting to have grandchildren and I'm not even 45 yet.

I respect that and that is awesome! here is a young woman's experience

http://www.divorcedat20.com/2011/04/i-want-to-know-you.html

I divorced at 26ish. If I could have done is all over again, I would have told my Mission Pres., Stake Pres. and my extremely nosy Bishop to mind their own business and had gotten my education and a job first then look for a wife.

[TAO]

Hmmm.... although I am sympathetic to singles... especially those with extraneous situations (like Messenger) that make it difficult to marry, I at the same time... am... hesitant, I guess you could say, to encourage later mairrage and/or singlehood.

Let me explain... yes... if they are not ready, they definitely should not get married early. But at the same time... many people wait a bit too long... that doesn't mean 23-34ish... I mean 26+... that is getting to the point where you probably should know what you are looking for =P. Marriage, I hate to say it, is a social contract... where you give up certain things in exchange for others... and sometimes we are all too picky... and sometimes we are all not picky enough. There needs to be a balance... we need to be practical in our pickyness =).

I also really do not think encouraging singlehood is a good idea, tbh... part of the purpose of the church is mairrage... we should try to encourage our singles to marry... because it will hopefully make them happy. We shouldn't bag on them, of course... but... a helpful shove or two isn't always bad, I guess you could say... as long as it isn't rushed.

I am reminded of a talk Elder Holland gave... about... savoring the time of 'preparing for mairrage'... in other words... don't go too fast... don't go too slow... go the right speed, more or less. It's an awesome piece of advice really... we need to be cautious... and yet not overly cautious and picky in our choices that will effect us for eternity and more =D.

Hope this doesn't offend anybody,

-TAO

[Duncan]

I am at a loss as to why some people are married, still married, and others are not. I don't get what a life long, very active RM single girl at 29 isn't doing to get married that a 19 yr old convert just out of high school, dating her first BF, is doing. If we say that marriage is a blessing for being righteous and you are more blessed the earlier you get married then I don't get it. Yes, I have with my own ears those things over the pulpit from leaders. I think Elder Ballard tempting YSAs to be Bishops, Stake Presidents and whatnot isn't the right approach. I love Elder Ballard and all but getting married to get a calling, to me, is almost as bad as getting married "because you can't be happy unless you're married" a phrase I too have heard over the pulpit

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51700209-78/lds-single-lake-salt.html.csp

[Storm Rider]

. As if wanting to get married and not being able to weren't disappointing enough. Now we have to hear double talk from the pulpit as an added salt to rub into the wound.

It is strange, but I agree that the Brethren find it very difficult to bring criticism against women. Women are not the fount of all righteousness; they are not universally the spiritual quotient in relationships; they are not the glue that keeps families holding the iron rod; and they are not God's willing servants on earth. I too have felt that these messages are propagated as a trade-off because they do not hold the priesthood.

The reason some in the Church are not marrying is because they choose not to. It is not a male issue or a female issue; it just means that some enjoy being single more than they do when being married. Let me be extremely callused, some people should never be married. In addition, some are desperate to be married but they are either social misfits or have done nothing to prepare for dating and courtship. I fear I will get into deep water where my mouth will be full of both feet resulting in hurt feelings and being flamed. Guys and Gals need to be interesting, they need to live joyfully and some are doing just that as single people. When they are ready they will be married. Others don't live joyfully, stay at home, become loners, wrapped up in activities for one, become unwholesome and boring.

I also agree that the Brethren do seem to breathe their own ether too much. How in the heck does a ward in Utah that sends out 50 missionaries a year compare to a branch that sends out 1 every few years. Should the small branch hold a farewell, of course. Utah is not the Church;l the problems that exist in Utah are not the problems of the Church. They need to remember that the Church is worldwide with a vast difference between cultures. Most of the letters need to be reserved to Utah and Idaho or at least use some judgment before making these broad decisions that do not apply and should not apply to the Church at large.

Every time the Church creates a new rule, the Church takes one step away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The objective is not to create pharisees, but to create individuals that follow the Spirit in all righteousness.

[mbh26]

I just looked at Jimmer Fredette's wikipedia page. I didn't see any mission on his resume. Jimmer's getting married at 22. Well good for him, but he just signed a fat NBA contract. Of course he won't have any trouble getting married. I don't think they'll be living poor together while he tries to make it. Sorry, but that doesn't look like the traditional LDS early marriage to me that this artical calls it. For me the traditional early LDS marriage is a couple I know who had four kids before he even graduated from medical school at age 27. They married right after he got home from a mission in Nicaragua. They lived off his $1500/month military contract while he was in medical school with little to no help from their parents. That's what marrying for love is to me.

[Calm]

It is strange, but I agree that the Brethren find it very difficult to bring criticism against women.

Besides culture, I think it has something to do with the fact that it would come across as rather onesided, the men up there criticizing women at General Conference etc. while women don't have the same opportunity to do so...and if the few women who do speak at General Conference or even Women's Conference spent their time criticizing men it would come across as petty to waste what little time they have to speak on such things.

[mbh26]

Got to wonder about the chastity issues considering how strong the drive is for men of that age, women too but theirs is not only still rising but was slower in development and so likely imo easier to distract by high activity in school, business, other social environments that don't promote intimacy.

No need to wonder, I lived it. Whether you're morally clean or living in sin, it's a very bitter time in a young man's life. Part of what made it the most difficult is that you're pretty much on your own to make sense out of the situation and work through the disappointment. I think a lot of young men like myself could have used much more good counseling during that time in my life than was avaiable. Number one I didn't have any money, so professional help was out. Number two, my fathers a good man, but his skills/desires at counseling something like that aren't very good at all. Number three, the Church is pretty twisted from reality on their view of what the situation really is. So you're not going to get much help there either.

In my case I really had to leave the Church for a while and seek out counsel from older nonmember men who were willing to share their experiences to start to help me understand women and properly assess the situation I was in.

[BCSpace]

I respect that and that is awesome! here is a young woman's experience

http://www.divorcedat20.com/2011/04/i-want-to-know-you.html

I divorced at 26ish. If I could have done is all over again, I would have told my Mission Pres., Stake Pres. and my extremely nosy Bishop to mind their own business and had gotten my education and a job first then look for a wife.

I think it just has to do with readiness, maturity, and mindset. I'm sure there are 16 year old couples (because I know some, now in their 50's and 60's, who did marry that early and were successful) who are ready for marriage now though I believe that number to be small.

The main problem imho, is not young people postponing marriage. It's the fact that many are, in Jerry Seinfeld's vernacular, "undatable". And of course we Mormons can't use alcohol to bring them together in the Seinfeldian way. Intended to be humorous, but there are many shreds of truth to this methinks. Sometimes the seasoning of age makes us more datable, sometimes less.

Edited September 1, 2011 by BCSpace