My Biggest Stumbling Block

[BCSpace]

I think the Bible and the Book of Mormon imply that the laws governing the formation of crystals were ordained by God.

So yes.

I'd say someone designed that.

Sure. For one who accepts the latest on String theory, God could easily have adjusted the physicsal laws of the universe to make such things possible. And God being God, why could He not either set initial conditions so precisely as to produce the desired outcome, crystal formations on earth mass carbon worlds in the habitable zones of stars, billions of years later and/or intervene from time to time in ways that appear random?

[Mortal Man]

I think the Bible and the Book of Mormon imply that the laws governing the formation of crystals were ordained by God.

So yes.

I'd say someone designed that.

Okay, did someone design this?

[Storm Rider]

Thank you Lehi.

But before he opened fire on me, zerinus did say something interesting . Since there's room for speculation on other things here, I'd be interested in any feedback on his comments. Is it possible that God (The Father) organized (imagined, willed, designed) His own body (and Heavenly Mother's)? And is it possible that "procreation in heaven" is more metaphorical than literal? Thank you.

The problem is that if the intelligent person who made/created/organized things (and put them together) has a body that no-one organized (or put together), then organized things can exist without an intelligent person organizing them (or putting them together.) Doesn't that directly contradict the logic that Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist use to prove the existence of a Creator?

I personally do not believe there is any type of regression of gods. God the Father was always God. On this point Zerinus has it right. We have no idea how spirits are created or born. Your guess would be as good as the prophet's guess or anyone else's.

I suspect that the Father gained his body the same way Jesus gained his; however, I also would not be surprised to learn it came from a different process. This topic is a mystery; we simply do not have enough information or revelation to understand it.

Finally, I would reiterate what another said, the Church of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth so that we might each become joint-heir's with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Its fullness teaches us the way to return to God's presence. Trying to understand the mysteries before you understand the fundamentals will only yield frustration and stagnation in your search for truth.

[Skylla]

I suggest you quit being a judgmental prig.

People know what I think of you already, so I don't need to reiterate!

Neither of these posts contributes to the discussion. Enough.

Skylla

[elguanteloko]

http://eyring.hplx.n...ion/FP1909.html

Bernard

I don't see how that may answer my question, sorry.

ETA: That statement is pure gold, btw. Expect at least one thread on it from my part.

Edited July 19, 2011 by elguanteloko

[elguanteloko]

Before you said it was a problem created by "a fraction of believers"

I said faction NOT fraction. A major faction, in my view.

(and someone else said it's not doctrine.)

so, that's it? Someone said it wasn't doctrine and you just believed that? Good grief!

" God Himself is an exalted man,perfected, enthroned, and supreme. "

Edited July 19, 2011 by elguanteloko

[CV75]

Aren't Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist saying that things that appear to be intelligently designed (like our bodies, our reproductive systems, etc.) are evidence of an intelligent designer?

I think their primary message is that His creations are dependent on Him, and that His creations are proof of Him only for those with eyes to see.

The creation in 2 Nephi 11:7 refers to the creation of this world and in connection with prior verses, why it needs a Savior.

Romans 1:20 is about the righteousness of God (love, unity) which is revealed through faith (verse 17), the wrath of God (punishment, separation) which is revealed when faith is betrayed (verse 18), and how God is manifest in these dynamics (verse 19). Verse 20 speaks to spiritual matters or the “invisible” things described in the prior verses, pointing out that spiritual things are understood by the things He made (physical creations), or witnessed or testified by His physical creation, only by His power and Godhead.

Psalm 19:1-3 is like Alma 30:44. The heavens, the earth, and “all things denote there is a God” but only when observed and understood with the guidance of the brethren, the holy prophets, and the scriptures, all of which require proper exercise of the conscience, or the Light of Christ, that one possesses.

[Ahab]

I'm still investigationg the Mormon Church, and I went to sacrament meeting this Sunday, but I kept thinking about the one thing that's been my biggest stumbling block.

That's the idea that there's been an infinit regress of Gods, and that we're literal spirit children of literal parents with bodies of flesh and bones.

I don't have a problem with what I think you're referring to, but suppose all of us here on this Earth are the start of our race and that it all started with the person we refer to as our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

Going back one step, that would then mean that at one point there was then only our Father in heaven, Jesus Christ (or the person who would later be known by that name, I mean), and the Holy Ghost. Right?

... let's not focus for the moment on whether or not those 3 persons are one kind of being, or in other words, whether or not they are all one in some way.

So, if that were the case, and at one point there were only those 3 persons or one God, wouldn't that mean that in some sense what we are is at least a little bit of what they are and that part of us is as eternal as they are?

Correct answer: Yes.

Now the only question would be: Do they (our literal parents) have bodies of flesh and bones (of some type), or are they instead only some kind of invisible beings (in a sense that it would be impossible to see them) with no particular shape or size.

Personally, I think the latter would only exist in the imaginations of some people who say there is a God but who don't really conceive of anything "literal" when they say that, as if God is only a thought in their own minds.

if Gods, their bodies, gender differences, and laws of sexual reproduction simply exist (without being intelligently designed), don't you have to throw the Bible and the Book of Mormon out the window?

Most people i know consider God to be a being of intelligence, rather than being "intelligently designed" in the sense most people think of when they consider that term.

To them, he always has been, and he has always been a being of intelligence... whether or not he also had a Father like we do from whom his species has been perpetuated.

The Book of Mormon says:

...if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation...(2 Nephi 11:7.)

In other words, all of us had to come from someone we refer to as God, otherwise without him we would not have been created.

And the Bible says:

...For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. (Romans 1:20.)

In other words, there are certain things we can't see about him at this time except through the things he has made, including how much power he has and those who are associated with him.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. (Psalm 19:1-3.)

That's are beautiful words I think you can get more out of without any rephrasing from me.

Aren't Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist saying that things that appear to be intelligently designed (like our bodies, our reproductive systems, etc.) are evidence of an intelligent designer?

Yes, but whether or not he was "designed" or instead perpetuated by his own Father like ours is something that we can't see with our mortal eyes at this time.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Ahab

[Avatar4321]

Then perhaps you should start with getting a testimony of the Prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, The Atonement of Jesus Christ, and the First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel and the Lord will reveal the rest later.

[inquiringmind]

Then perhaps you should start with getting a testimony of the Prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, The Atonement of Jesus Christ, and the First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel and the Lord will reveal the rest later.

I thought thinking things out in your mind was part of seeking a testimony (D&C, don't recall the section and verse), and I don't see how to seperate this issue from the question of whether or not Joseph had a genuine prophetic calling.(which is still something I'm trying to think out in my own mind.)

Edited July 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[mnn727]

And is it possible that "procreation in heaven" is more metephorical than literal?

I personally believe it is more metaphorical and is probably more like an adoption than a birth. Why? because scripture states we were with the Father in the beginning.

D&C 93: 29

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

So we were intelligences with the Father in the beginning and somehow became his spirit children. If we already existed then precreation. how it is done on earth. seems unreasonable to me personally -- your mileage may vary.

Edited July 21, 2011 by mnn727

[altersteve]

inquiringmind:

Unfortunately, if you study other faiths seriously you will see that many of the claims of Mormonism will fall extremely short in comparison with other views and other much more intellectually satisfying doctrine sets.

I say this because at the end of the day it all depends on where YOU let faith, not understanding, be your guide. If you go with Mormonism, infinite regress is a problem from a faction of believers that at the point of problems will tell you to just have faith. If you go with Catholics they will tell you when you see the problems of the Trinity to have faith and that you won't understand God's nature. If you go with other religious ideas you will find that when problems start, faith begins just as well.

My advice to you is to think on where you are going to place your faith on and be very careful about it without fear of 'getting it wrong'. If God punishes you for getting it wrong after doing the sensibly best you could, then that God doesn't need to be worshiped in the first place. Be fearless in this respect.

Do you mean to imply that "Mormonism," as you and so many others incorrect call it, does not encourage its members to use reason and logic in their gospel studies? Also, I have studied other faiths seriously, and I have seen that the claims of other religions fall extremely short in comparison with the views, claims, and intellectually satisfying doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Edited July 21, 2011 by altersteve

[HeatherAnn]

Since there's room for speculation on other things here, I'd be interested in any feedback on his comments.

Is it possible that God (The Father) organized (imagined, willed, designed) His own body (and Heavenly Mother's)?

And is it possible that "procreation in heaven" is more metephorical than literal?

There is plenty of room for speculation!

Scott Peck wrote how he had it made being accepted to a great university & other honors, yet he intuitively wondered about a totally different path. He asked mentors for advice. 2 instructors advised him to keep going & that to give up this opportunity would be ridiculous. The 3rd Math genius proffessor didn't say much, but asked him questions - about everything from his goals to spiritual beliefs. After several hours of inquiring, he set back & said, "After all you've told me, I'm sorry, but I don't know what you should do." This genius admitting he didn't know gave Scott peace that it's ok if he wasn't sure either.

I've heard that God is found in the void... the holy hole, which if embraced (instead of run from) contributes to holiness in us.

If we are as God once was... & eternal progression is a divine principle, then God has parents & so on, just as we have kids & so on.

Who knows how infinite space beyond our little universe is! Who knows how much we are clueless about!

I do believe that everything spiritually, is more metaphysical (I know you wrote metephorical) than many think.

I thought thinking things out in your mind was part of seeking a testimony (D&C, don't recall the section and verse), and I don't see how to seperate this issue from the question of whether or not Joseph had a genuine prophetic calling.(which is still something I'm trying to think out in my own mind.)

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, & call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

I admire that you're studying it out in your mind. And I'm guessing you're using intuition (the spirit) in harmony with reason.

You'll likely come across plenty of questions that may never sit well with you. There is good & bad in everyone... in Joseph Smith, in those who wrote scriptures, & all leaders. It's a question of finding what is best for you in your life... (which IMO summarizes God & love)... through both reason & intuition.

[CV75]

I thought thinking things out in your mind was part of seeking a testimony (D&C, don't recall the section and verse), and I don't see how to seperate this issue from the question of whether or not Joseph had a genuine prophetic calling.(which is still something I'm trying to think out in my own mind.)

I wrote something earlier (#32) that shows that the scriptures you listed do not say that “things that appear to be intelligently designed (like our bodies, our reproductive systems, etc.) are evidence of an intelligent designer.”

The scriptures you listed tell us that this world was organized by God as part of His work and glory, and that His is a spiritual enterprise. It is “invisible” to the physical world unless it is made evident to the faithful by His power. His creations serve as intended, as testimony of Him to us, when we see them by His power. Our challenge is to see by His power.

For this reason, these scriptures do not contradict the idea that God simply exists or that we also simply existed co-eternally with Him, making the order of our appearance as Gods or children of Gods a function of something other than anyone having been the first. The scriptures simply address the order established with this world’s / creation’s particular relationship between God and us, placing Him first, or the source of our appearance in this world (Moses 1:35; D&C 121:28).

It makes sense from our perspective that Heavenly Father has a father, and so forth, but the scriptures do not speak to this. It may or may not make sense from our perspective that generations of gods would have no starting point. I would suggest that, outside of this temporal creation, and where everyone who can (Gods, pre-mortal spirits, intelligences, etc.) exist with each other co-eternally and with awareness that this is the case, the idea of infinite regress is replaced with “here we are (again)” and “thank you.”

[Stargazer]

Unfortunately, if you study other faiths seriously you will see that many of the claims of Mormonism will fall extremely short in comparison with other views and other much more intellectually satisfying doctrine sets.

You know, having done this myself, on the contrary I do not find any other "doctrine sets" that make me as intellectually satisfied.

Buddhism, with its very intricate and interesting cosmology, comes closer to the mark, so to speak, than any other, but I still find it incomplete and contrived.

[MorningStar]

I'm not sure I understand your dilemma. Those scriptures seem to say that the earth testifies of God's existence and couldn't have been made by accident.

[inquiringmind]

I'm not sure I understand your dilemma. Those scriptures seem to say that the earth testifies of God's existence and couldn't have been made by accident.

If Gods with two arms, two legs, one head, two eyes, a skeletal frame, an outer layer of flesh, some kind of reproductive system by which they reproduce after their kind, who organize pre-existent material acording to certain set laws, have always existed--and could exist without the whole system being purposely designed by some intelligence; why couldn't the system of earth, stars, planets, and the physical life forms we see on earth simply exist?

How can it be true to say that the earth testifies of God's existence, if an equally complex, organized system with natural laws simply exists (eternally, without being purposely designed by a designer)?

I was thinking of the King Follet Sermon today, and the only thing I can figure out is that maybe the core of what "God" means (and I think most LDS would agree that "Elohim" means more than an individual) is what Joseph called "intelligence, light, and truth."

Maybe this "intelligence, light, and truth" willed and designed the whole system (of which we, heavenly Father, heavenly Mother, and any heavenly gradparents are a part.)

Maybe this "God" did design the bodies of the God's (and any laws by which they reproduce after their kind)?

These are just my thoughts, but it's the only way I can make sense of LDS theology.

(Any thoughful and honest feedback might be helpful.)

Edited July 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Questing Beast]

...

I would like some thoughts on the body (bodies) design issue though.

I personally see no reason why the most High God couldn't simply will a body of His own (or even a bodily companion)

Any thoughts?

I've "over-thought" this one all of my remembered life. And where I am now with it is, "God" being infinite cannot be merely a homo sapien male, no matter how glorious or immortal. The physical brain has a limit to how much knowledge-information it can process and store. At best, a glorified, immortal brain could function as a routing center to vaster stores of information, like an index: "I know where that is, let me go get it (for you)", sort of thing. There is no way possible that a physically limited brain can house the infinite power of the universe, much less the multiverse. So the "God" that appeared to Joseph Smith and said, "This is my Beloved Son," was a manifestation; much like you suggest, he willed his own body into existence and chooses to appear to us this way. As for the Cause of Existence in the first place: that question will always demand an answer. "Accident" still cannot occur without something to be acted upon "accidentally". You can prove or disprove anything with a mathematical equation. But Existence remains a fact and demands an answer. To me that answer is "God"; the biggest concept for which cannot even form a beginning of what/who "God" IS....

[inquiringmind]

I've "over-thought" this one all of my remembered life. And where I am now with it is, "God" being infinite cannot be merely a homo sapien male, no matter how glorious or immortal. The physical brain has a limit to how much knowledge-information it can process and store. At best, a glorified, immortal brain could function as a routing center to vaster stores of information, like an index: "I know where that is, let me go get it (for you)", sort of thing. There is no way possible that a physically limited brain can house the infinite power of the universe, much less the multiverse. So the "God" that appeared to Joseph Smith and said, "This is my Beloved Son," was a manifestation; much like you suggest, he willed his own body into existence and chooses to appear to us this way. As for the Cause of Existence in the first place: that question will always demand an answer. "Accident" still cannot occur without something to be acted upon "accidentally". You can prove or disprove anything with a mathematical equation. But Existence remains a fact and demands an answer. To me that answer is "God"; the biggest concept for which cannot even form a beginning of what/who "God" IS....

Thank you.

[cdowis]

I've "over-thought" this one all of my remembered life. And where I am now with it is, "God" being infinite cannot be merely a homo sapien male, no matter how glorious or immortal. The physical brain has a limit to how much knowledge-information it can process and store.

Well, let's pretend that aliens visit the earth and first encounter a newly-born infant. They know nothing about the growth process that makes it into an adult.

So, here is this infant, unable to feed itself, unable to go anywhere, and barely able to see. From that new-born the aliens discover that it will be able to go to school and earn an advanced degree. It will be able to drive a car, get a responsible job, buy a house and pay the mortgage, get married and raise a family. Perhaps even help design a space ship, manage a project to have it built, and even fly it to the moon.

All of that from that helpless baby.

Without knowing the adult version of that baby, how would that be conceivable. And how can we conceive what that baby will do in eternity, beyond this mortal life.

[inquiringmind]

Well, let's pretend that aliens visit the earth and first encounter a newly-born infant. They know nothing about the growth process that makes it into an adult.

So, here is this infant, unable to feed itself, unable to go anywhere, and barely able to see. From that new-born the aliens discover that it will be able to go to school and earn an advanced degree. It will be able to drive a car, get a responsible job, buy a house and pay the mortgage, get married and raise a family. Perhaps even help design a space ship, manage a project to have it built, and even fly it to the moon.

All of that from that helpless baby.

Without knowing the adult version of that baby, how would that be conceivable. And how can we conceive what that baby will do in eternity, beyond this mortal life.

That may be true, but whether you're talking about the baby, it's parents, or the aliens...

As for the Cause of Existence in the first place: that question will always demand an answer.

This is suggested in 2 Nephi 11:7, Romans 1:20, and Psalm 19.

And Questing Beast is not alone here, he's in the company of Paul, David, and Nephi.

Edited July 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[CV75]

How can it be true to say that the earth testifies of God's existence, if an equally complex, organized system with natural laws simply exists (eternally, without being purposely designed by a designer)?

The earth, in its current state, testifies of God’s existence to us in our current state because both are here in this time, place and condition by virtue of God’s power. It is not the high degree of complexity and organization of the system that testifies of God’s existence, but the co-eternal nature of the system, and more significantly from our perspective, the transformational process going on under His direction, as follows: however complex and organized the system may be co-eternally, He replicated it on a temporal plane, with a veil, while restoring it with exalted qualities. This testimony is received spiritually, which is what the scriptures of David, Nephi and Paul talk about.

Granted, we marvel at the complexity that we see and attribute it to God’s invention or design when it was actually His intervention with what always existed co-eternally in another state that permitted us to get this far and continue in our progress. But His intervention is no less marvelous than if He designed it all Himself (and for all I know He designed it "by adoption"). I find it even more marvelous because He can actually bring these things from one stage of existence into the next.

So it can be true to say that the earth testifies of God’s existence by passing from a co-eternal, spiritual sphere into a temporal sphere and then onward into an exalted eternal sphere because this could not be done without Him. This testimony can be received though faith, the Light of Christ, spiritual gifts and other manifestations of His power.

[inquiringmind]

The earth, in its current state, testifies of God’s existence to us in our current state because both are here in this time, place and condition by virtue of God’s power. It is not the high degree of complexity and organization of the system that testifies of God’s existence, but the co-eternal nature of the system, and more significantly from our perspective, the transformational process going on under His direction, as follows: however complex and organized the system may be co-eternally,..

Do you really think that's what Nephi meant when he said "if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation"?

Edited July 21, 2011 by inquiringmind

[ERayR]

If Gods with two arms, two legs, one head, two eyes, a skeletal frame, an outer layer of flesh, some kind of reproductive system by which they reproduce after their kind, who organize pre-existent material acording to certain set laws, have always existed--and could exist without the whole system being purposely designed by some intelligence; why couldn't the system of earth, stars, planets, and the physical life forms we see on earth simply exist?

It probaably did but not with the order that is now there.

How can it be true to say that the earth testifies of God's existence, if an equally complex, organized system with natural laws simply exists (eternally, without being purposely designed by a designer)?

The natural order of things is chaos. God brings order and control.

I was thinking of the King Follet Sermon today, and the only thing I can figure out is that maybe the core of what "God" means (and I think most LDS would agree that "Elohim" means more than an individual) is what Joseph called "intelligence, light, and truth."

More than one individual.

Maybe this "intelligence, light, and truth" willed and designed the whole system (of which we, heavenly Father, heavenly Mother, and any heavenly gradparents are a part.)

Sounds reasonable.

Maybe this "God" did design the bodies of the God's (and any laws by which they reproduce after their kind)?

The laws are natural laws and are eternal/infinite.

These are just my thoughts, but it's the only way I can make sense of LDS theology.

(Any thoughful and honest feedback might be helpful.)

Edited July 21, 2011 by ERayR

[CV75]

Do you really think that's what Nephi meant when he said "if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation"?

Yes, I think the scriptural prophecies are about God’s work and glory for us in this world. If there were no God, the world and our bodies would not have entered mortality. The form in which we existed before would not have advanced into this estate since we could not have done it ourselves. There would have been no temporal creation as far as we are concerned, so we would not be the spirits and bodies temporarily interconnected that we currently are. Arguably we would have continued in a co-eternal estate without the influence of a God.