My Biggest Stumbling Block

[inquiringmind]

I'm still investigationg the Mormon Church, and I went to sacrament meeting this Sunday, but I kept thinking about the one thing that's been my biggest stumbling block.

That's the idea that there's been an infinit regress of Gods, and that we're literal spirit children of literal parents with bodies of flesh and bones.

if Gods, their bodies, gender differences, and laws of sexual reproduction simply exist (without being intelligently designed), don't you have to throw the Bible and the Book of Mormon out the window?

The Book of Mormon says:

...if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation...(2 Nephi 11:7.)

And the Bible says:

...For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. (Romans 1:20.)

And:

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. (Psalm 19:1-3.)

Aren't Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist saying that things that appear to be intelligently designed (like our bodies, our reproductive systems, etc.) are evidence of an intelligent designer?

Edited July 19, 2011 by inquiringmind

[zerinus]

I'm still investigationg the Mormon Church, and I went to sacrament meeting this Sunday, but I kept thinking about the one thing that's been my biggest stumbling block.

That's the idea that there's been an infinit regress of Gods, and that we're literal spirit children of literal parents with bodies of flesh and bones.

if Gods, their bodies, gender differences, and laws of sexual reproduction simply exist (without being intelligently designed), don't you have to throw the Bible and the Book of Mormon out the window?

The Book of Mormon says:

...if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation...(2 Nephi 11:7.)

And the Bible says:

...For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. (Romans 1:20.)

And:

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. (Psalm 19:1-3.)

Aren't Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist saying that things that appear to be intelligently designed (like our bodies, our reproductive systems, etc.) are evidence of an intelligent designer?

There is no "infinite regression of the Gods;" and parental propagation or procreation in heaven does not equate with its equivalent here on earth. I suggest you quit getting your information from anti-Mormon websites, and quit wasting everybody's time.

Edited July 19, 2011 by zerinus

[LeSellers]

I suggest you ... quit wasting everybody's time.

I have had some offline interactions with inquiringmind and have few qualms about saying that I believe you are wrong on this.

I agree that what we believe is not represented in good faith by most non-LDS writers, anti or not, but it is more than harsh to accuse inquiringmind of wasting our time.

Lehi

[wenglund]

I'm still investigationg the Mormon Church, and I went to sacrament meeting this Sunday, but I kept thinking about the one thing that's been my biggest stumbling block.

That's the idea that there's been an infinit regress of Gods, and that we're literal spirit children of literal parents with bodies of flesh and bones....

With all due respect, I don't think you correctly understand the purpose of the restored gospel. It isn't geared to enable finite minds to fully comprehend the infinite. Rather, it is designed to enable us to progress towards becoming like Christ. Not being able to comprehend the supposed "infinite regress of Gods" ought not, in any rational sense, be a stumbling block to taking advantage of the real intents and purpose of the gospel--assuming you wish to become like Christ.

However, if you are seeking a religious philosophy which may avoid philosophical quandries related to intelligent design (be they related to infinite regress or un-caused first cause), then perhaps the restored gospel isn't well suited for you--though I am not sure what religious philosophy might be.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[David T]

I suggest you quit getting your information from anti-Mormon websites, and quit wasting everybody's time.

I suggest you quit being a judgmental prig.

Edited July 19, 2011 by nackhadlow

[zerinus]

I suggest you quite being a judgmental prig.

People know what I think of you already, so I don't need to reiterate!

[Arkholt]

I'm still investigationg the Mormon Church, and I went to sacrament meeting this Sunday, but I kept thinking about the one thing that's been my biggest stumbling block.

That's the idea that there's been an infinit regress of Gods...

First, that's only a common supposition, though not scriptural or doctrinal. It's logical if you take certain things into account, but it's certainly not a given. Therefore, that piece of information need not be a stumbling block, as it still may or may not be true.

...and that we're literal spirit children of literal parents with bodies of flesh and bones.

if Gods, their bodies, gender differences, and laws of sexual reproduction simply exist (without being intelligently designed), don't you have to throw the Bible and the Book of Mormon out the window?

The Book of Mormon says:

...if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation...(2 Nephi 11:7.)

And the Bible says:

...For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. (Romans 1:20.)

And:

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. (Psalm 19:1-3.)

Aren't Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist saying that things that appear to be intelligently designed (like our bodies, our reproductive systems, etc.) are evidence of an intelligent designer?

Not necessarily. I see them as saying that these things have clearly been made/created/organized, but that doesn't mean they're saying that the maker/creator/organizer thought them up out of his own head. There must be a great amount of intelligence to know how to put everything together the way that it is, which is far more intelligence than we will have in this life, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the intelligent person can't go by a blueprint.

[inquiringmind]

I have had some offline interactions with inquiringmind and have few qualms about saying that I believe you are wrong on this.

I agree that what we believe is not represented in good faith by most non-LDS writers, anti or not, but it is more than harsh to accuse inquiringmind of wasting our time.

Lehi

Thank you Lehi.

But before he opened fire on me, zerinus did say something interesting .

There is no "infinite regression of the Gods;" and parental propagation or procreation in heaven does not equate with its equivalent here on earth

Since there's room for speculation on other things here, I'd be interested in any feedback on his comments.

Is it possible that God (The Father) organized (imagined, willed, designed) His own body (and Heavenly Mother's)?

And is it possible that "procreation in heaven" is more metephorical than literal?

First, that's only a common supposition, though not scriptural or doctrinal. It's logical if you take certain things into account, but it's certainly not a given. Therefore, that piece of information need not be a stumbling block, as it still may or may not be true.

Thank you.

I see them as saying that these things have clearly been made/created/organized, but that doesn't mean they're saying that the maker/creator/organizer thought them up out of his own head. There must be a great amount of intelligence to know how to put everything together the way that it is, which is far more intelligence than we will have in this life, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the intelligent person can't go by a blueprint.

The problem is that if the intelligent person who made/created/organized things (and put them together) has a body that no-one organized (or put together), then organized things can exist without an intelligent person organizing them (or putting them together.)

Doesnt that directly contradict the logic that Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist use to prove the existence of a Creator?

Edited July 19, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Stargazer]

Since everyone is making helpful suggestions, heres's mine: stay on topic, shall we?

Anyway, Inquiring, you are quite simply overthinking it. I mean, in the LDS church, nobody (to speak of) gets into this kind of mind-blowing speculation, beccause quite frankly, we haven't been told enough by the Lord to make for any kind of actual doctrine. But, to address your post, what you're talking about doesn't even sound remotely related to what LDS believe. It sounds... well, like someone was taking too many sips of the sacramental wine, if you get my drift.

Now, that being said, and keeping in mind that my screen name reflects an avid amateur interest in astronomy, I suggest you just try to imagine the Universe as we see it. Do you have any comprehension of how BIG it is? The furthest we can see in this Universe is aboutg 14 billion light years to the most distant galaxy, and it is a galaxy that appears as it was about 200 million years after the Big Bang.

The reason I bring this up is because we cannot even begin to comprehend the size of God's creation, it is sheer folly to think we can imagine who God is and what His nature is, at least past the plain fact of the matter that He said his work and his glory was to bring to pass the eternal life of man.

Thus our chief concern is to do what we can to become like Christ, and let not wild speculations about the nature of the Universe trouble us. The thing is, we cannot understand. Given that Father Abraham was shone many wonderful things, clearly God will allow us to see more, when we are individually ready.

Until then, your chief concern had best be: is Jesus the Christ? Can He save me? Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the organization which He gave His authority to? Overthinking it leads to confusion. Your brain is simply not big enough to understand the rest of it, so you'd best leave off with it.

[inquiringmind]

Until then, your chief concern had best be: is Jesus the Christ? Can He save me? Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the organization which He gave His authority to?

I am concerned with those questions, and I understand the universe is big, beautiful, and well organized.

Scriptural writters like Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist seemed to think that the universe they saw (which was less than you see) proved something.

My question is, were they wrong?

Can well organized design (like that found in the male and female bodiy) beauty (like that of a woman or a star nebulai), and functionality (like that of the human reproductive system) exist without an intelligent designer?

Could the body of Heavenly Father and Mother (and some preter-natural laws of reproduction) exist without a designer.

Could a finite or infinite regress of such Gods (with their well organized and functional bodies) exist with no intentional purpose or designer?

And if they could, what does this vast universe you see prove?

Wouldn't you be saying that something bigger, better, as well organized, as functional, and at least as well designed as this vast universe exists without a Creator?

Edited July 19, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Arkholt]

The problem is that if the intelligent person who made/created/organized things (and put them together) has a body that no-one organized (or put together), then organized things can exist without an intelligent person organizing them (or putting them together.)

Doesnt that directly contradict the logic that Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist use to prove the existence of a Creator?

Thus the supposition of the infinite regress of Gods. As I said, all it is is supposition, but taking into account what you're saying ("Who created God's body?"), it makes sense and is the generally accepted answer.

[inquiringmind]

Thus the supposition of the infinite regress of Gods. As I said, all it is is supposition, but taking into account what you're saying ("Who created God's body?"), it makes sense and is the generally accepted answer.

That just creates the bigger problem of how a universe of Gods (with bodies) could exist without a creator (and would still seem to imply that the scriptural writers were wrong, when they said that an organized, well designed universe proves the existence of a Creator.)

Edited July 19, 2011 by inquiringmind

[Arkholt]

I am concerned with those questions, and I understand the universe is big, beautiful, and well organized.

Scriptural writters like Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist seemed to think that the universe they saw (which was less than you see) proved something.

My question is, were they wrong?

Can well organized design (like that found in the male and female bodiy) beauty (like that of a woman or a star nebulai), and functionality (like that of the human reproductive system) exist without an intelligent designer?

Could the body of Heavenly Father and Mother (and some preter-natural laws of reproduction) exist without a designer (and if they can, what does this vast universe you see prove)?

Recent advances in science seem to indicate that although it is impossible to prove the existence or non-existence of God, God is unnecessary in order for us to have everything we see around us. To us, then, the existence of the universe as we see it does not prove the existence of a Creator. To the scriptural writers it certainly did, and I don't think our knowledge of science makes them wrong. It just allows us to see things in a different way. Now that we know the "how," we are free to be awed entirely by the "why," which God calls His work and glory. What it proves, then, is that even though all this could exist by accident, God made it specifically so that he could accomplish his awesome purpose.

[elguanteloko]

inquiringmind:

Unfortunately, if you study other faiths seriously you will see that many of the claims of Mormonism will fall extremely short in comparison with other views and other much more intellectually satisfying doctrine sets.

I say this because at the end of the day it all depends on where YOU let faith, not understanding, be your guide. If you go with Mormonism, infinite regress is a problem from a faction of believers that at the point of problems will tell you to just have faith. If you go with Catholics they will tell you when you see the problems of the Trinity to have faith and that you won't understand God's nature. If you go with other religious ideas you will find that when problems start, faith begins just as well.

My advice to you is to think on where you are going to place your faith on and be very careful about it without fear of 'getting it wrong'. If God punishes you for getting it wrong after doing the sensibly best you could, then that God doesn't need to be worshiped in the first place. Be fearless in this respect.

Edited July 19, 2011 by elguanteloko

[inquiringmind]

... If you go with Mormonism, infinite regress is a problem from a faction of believers...

But if it's only a fraction of believers (and not doctrine) it's no real problem.

I would like some thoughts on the body (bodies) design issue though.

I personally see no reason why the most High God couldn't simply will a body of His own (or even a bodily companion)

Any thoughts?

Edited July 19, 2011 by inquiringmind

[elguanteloko]

But if it's only a fraction of believers (and not doctrine) it's no real problem.

..you just said it was your "biggest stumbling block".

I would like some thoughts on the body (bodies) design issue though.

I personally see no reason why the most High God couldn't simply will a body of His own (or even a bodily companion)

Any thoughts?

no

[Bernard Gui]

The only knowledge we have about God is what he has revealed to us. The rest is pure speculation

Alma 37 11 Now these mysteries are not yet fully made known unto me; therefore I shall forbear.

This is good advice. I look forward with great anticipation to the time when these things will be revealed. Until then, what we know for sure is that we are the progeny of celestial parents.

Bernard

Edited July 19, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[elguanteloko]

The only knowledge we have about God is what he has revealed to us. The rest is pure speculation

Alma 37 11 Now these mysteries are not yet fully made known unto me; therefore I shall forbear.

This is good advice. I look forward with great anticipation to the time when these things will be revealed. Until then, what we know for sure is that we are the progeny of celestial parents.

Bernard

What about the interpretations over "what He has revealed to us"? How do you choose those?

[Mortal Man]

Can well organized design (like that found in the male and female bodiy) beauty (like that of a woman or a star nebulai), and functionality (like that of the human reproductive system) exist without an intelligent designer?

Did someone design this?

[stYro]

My advice to you is to think on where you are going to place your faith on and be very careful about it without fear of 'getting it wrong'. If God punishes you for getting it wrong after doing the sensibly best you could, then that God doesn't need to be worshiped in the first place. Be fearless in this respect.

^This^

I think the sincere seeker may be closer to God than the sincere believer.

[Bernard Gui]

What about the interpretations over "what He has revealed to us"? How do you choose those?

http://eyring.hplx.net/Eyring/faq/evolution/FP1909.html

Bernard

[inquiringmind]

..you just said it was your "biggest stumbling block"

Before you said it was a problem created by "a fraction of believers" (and someone else said it's not doctrine.)

Edited July 19, 2011 by inquiringmind

[BCSpace]

I'm still investigationg the Mormon Church, and I went to sacrament meeting this Sunday, but I kept thinking about the one thing that's been my biggest stumbling block.

That's the idea that there's been an infinit regress of Gods,

"Infinite regress" also plagues trinitarians. They have only one generation of "God" before they have to explain what came before. In LDS theology, the time when this question has to be addressed can be pushed back as far as one wants to go. The point ultimately being that there are some things we cannot know now and the fact the God has not revealed them or science hasn't discovered them does not bring conflict to existing doctrine.

That just creates the bigger problem of how a universe of Gods (with bodies) could exist without a creator (and would still seem to imply that the scriptural writers were wrong, when they said that an organized, well designed universe proves the existence of a Creator.)

I may (or may not) have an answer for you in the other thread. All that is required from the scriptures is that God produced a method whereby our bodies were created after the pattern of His body. There is nothing to preclude the notion that the pattern for the bodies of the Gods were ultimately and "randomly" (there is no such thing as randomness when you think about it) produced.

[TAO]

I'm still investigationg the Mormon Church, and I went to sacrament meeting this Sunday, but I kept thinking about the one thing that's been my biggest stumbling block.

That's the idea that there's been an infinit regress of Gods, and that we're literal spirit children of literal parents with bodies of flesh and bones.

if Gods, their bodies, gender differences, and laws of sexual reproduction simply exist (without being intelligently designed), don't you have to throw the Bible and the Book of Mormon out the window?

The Book of Mormon says:

...if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation...(2 Nephi 11:7.)

And the Bible says:

...For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead. (Romans 1:20.)

And:

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. (Psalm 19:1-3.)

Aren't Paul, Nephi, and the Psalmist saying that things that appear to be intelligently designed (like our bodies, our reproductive systems, etc.) are evidence of an intelligent designer?

Heya inquringmind, sorry about everything that's been going on in this thread, but anyways... XD... let me try and answer your questions =).

So... I am one who supports... infinite regression. I realize not many may agree with me... but let me explain what I think of it, in any case.

One analogy I like using is... the watchmaker. The watchmaker makes the watch out of many small but still 'organized' parts. And he makes it into a watch. He is the watch's creator. He designed the watch... and though it is similar to other watches, there are also some very unique and awesome things to it. It still works as a watch though.

Now I do not know if this world differs much from what God's world was like, so saying. I do not know these things, so you'd probably be better off asking him there, if you know what i mean XD. In any case, even though there are other 'watches'... it doesn't make God any less the 'designer' of his watch. Just because there are other souls... and just because he is a soul... doesn't make him any less the father of our souls. In fact... it makes him closer. It makes him a literal father. Now this isn't to say Jesus Christ isn't our Father too... but he's our Father in a different way... he's our Father in that he gives birth to us through the atonement... through him we are saved. That is how he is our Father... in a different way then Father... but our Father all the same =).

So now... let's say he hadn't existed. Would we exist? Or would we be so different... that we wouldn't be recognizable? I do not know for sure what would happen. We may have not been raised up. Or we may not have been raised up in the same way. Or we may have been raised up under a different Father. Many different ways and things to go about... I do not have enough knowledge about it. In any case... you can be assured... if he didn't exist... we would in the least, have a different Father in Heaven... in the most... be different... maybe non-existent in physicality.

Let me ask you this... is there not greater evidence that god exists... than the fact we can touch things... and physically interact with things... that is a wonderful thing =).

Now... I could be wrong on all this... I do not know... it fits into my view and field of things... but I have had no revelation or anything on the subject. So consider this all lucky guessing. But who knows, it may be right... but it is most likely wrong in many numerous areas. I hope that God isn't too harsh on me for it =).

Happy Wishes,

-TAO

[inquiringmind]

Did someone design this?

I think the Bible and the Book of Mormon imply that the laws governing the formation of crystals were ordained by God.

So yes.

I'd say someone designed that.

Edited July 19, 2011 by inquiringmind