The Mormon Guilt Trip

[ERMD]

ERMD,

The whole world is my Gospel Doctrine class

But there's a whole crop of people on the board who feel they are hearing the wrong things at church. Check it out: The Last Mormon Freedom Maybe you can invite them to worship elsewhere and see how they take it...

MnG

Ark-steadying by any other name, and seeds of apostasy IMHO.

[mercyngrace]

Ark-steadying by any other name, and seeds of apostasy IMHO.

ERMD,

If you read through the Last Mormon Freedom thread some people are taking a hard line approach about what should and shouldn't be said on Fast Sundays. They absolve the listeners of any responsbility to be patient and compassionate with those speakers who wander or say strange things. Then you've got hardliners on this thread who hold speakers blameless while condemning the listeners for perceiving incorrectly what is being said.

I was trying to make the point that you can't have it both ways. People on both sides of the pulpit are just as human and sometimes we speak out of turn - other times we listen badly. It is what it is and the doctrine is true anyway.

MnG

[Garden Girl]

Okay folks... I didn't read every single post here...but I say... Guilt Schmilt!! I get tired of those LDS who whine about "not being good enough" or never "measuring up." Or taking every Sacrament talk as a guilt trip. They don't get it, nor do they understand the Savior's atonement. Of course we as individuals are supposed to continually strive to become like Jesus... but we should understand we will never become even close to perfection in this life. The point is to stay on the path and do our honest best... honest best... not try to go beyond the mark. Yes, we are, after all, to be valiant not lukewarm... valiant in our testimonies, valiant in striving to live the commandments. It is a process... and we are to endure to the end in our efforts.

My Sac mtg this past week was uplifting... interesting... spiritual... no guilt there. I never feel guilt as long as I'm doing my honest best...

GG

[Jeff K.]

Consig,

Over the last 3-4 yrs that I've been reading the various threads here regularly...I want to say that "for the most part" I've always enjoyed your very frank and thought provoking questions. Having said that....I will share with you that the past few months I find myself kinda worrying about the direction you're going.

My initial impressions were that you were simply trying to stimulate thought...playing the ole role of "devil's advocate"...but now I sense that your overall attitude towards the church "in general" is a negative one. I just find that to be disconcerting...and quite frankly..kinda scarey.

These thoughts are not meant to be judgemental in any way...just a friend sharing his thoughts with his friend.

To address your initial question....I must say that my experience in the church since 1964...and having my fair share of leadership experiences in the church...and having seen first hand how horribly some leaders of the church can handle things....I can honestly say that I have never "hated going to church" (not saying you do..) because of boring Sacrament mtg speakers...bone dry GD teachers....amazingly dull EQ instructors...insensitive Bishops...or various other malcontents I've encountered in my journey of all things LDS. Why do you suppose I haven't been afflicted with "LDSnegativitus?" I ask that sincerely...it's not meant to bait you in any way. You and I have been a member of the church for a while now...and we each have "been around the track" our fair share....so I ask you sincerely.

In fact, I can say without hestitation that my attitude has been that I've always been proud and grateful that IMO...the church has always motivated it's members by being positive in it's approach..ie; "we would encourage you to do these things because of the JOY it can bring into your life", versus the "by gosh..you better do these things because if you don't BAAADDDDD things are going to happen to you." IMO...the church does not motivate using fear of punishment, but rather by the joy and happiness obedience will bring into ones life.

I really love the title of Elder Andersons GC talk entitled "It's true isn't it? What else matters?" To me....all of these various irritations and annoyances can all be filtered through that one thought. If this gospel you and I embrace is true..do these other things really merit this much of our time, thought and spiritual energy? Now..don't get me wrong...I'm all for asking tough doctrinal questions if we are honestly struggling with something that we find is becoming a huge stumbling block in our progression, but many of the issues you have raised as of late...seem like they're just being drudged up to be contentious..at least thats how they've been coming across to me....and thats me being one of your friends and "fans"!! hahaha

Ok...Take care my good friend! Thanks for the ear.

Randy

Randy

There was a time when I found a ward to be relatively weak. Its people had little depth in the gospel. They seemed concerned with simplistic things rather than talking about the "real gospel". I found their talks "basic" and without strong analogies. It was a "workmans" ward you might say. Mostly blue collar. The talks were not entertaining enough to hold my attention. After a while I chose to stop coming to Sunday school, I would hang out elsewhere in the building. Of course my feelings were infectious. There were one or two others who felt the same way. We would talk about "deeper" gospel subjects on our own and in a way "chortle" at the lack of sophistication that radiated from those around us. After a while our group would leave and we would discuss things at a local cafe, ... and then later, some of us went inactive. Myself included.

One day something occurred that helped me understand part of the atonement, in a serious way. I began to study it out more in my mind, and my wife, bless her, was less worried about entertainment in the ward, and more concerned with a knowledge and application of the gospel in her life. Her patience, her example, and her continued love for me helped bring me back to a realization of how little I truly know about the gospel and how vulnerable those of any intellectual bent can be. I realized how incredibly foolish my constant grousing was, and how it was not a manifestation of my view as to how the ward can be better, but a justification of my short sighted desire for separation from God, as if His servants were not really good enough for me, and what I had to offer.

You now what really hurts though? Two of our small group left the church entirely, one left his wife. And I am partially to blame for that. Even now, almost two decades later, it hurts terribly to think about it.

It is one reason I am more easily upset with consig. He is doing (if his description of his life and questions are accurate) and writing about the same things I wrote of those many years ago.

Your post reminded me of an old friend that said the same thing to me so long ago. I ignored him when I shouldn't have. Thank heaven my kids were too young to remember my example, it would hurt me to have them remember even a part of me that way.

Thanks for helping us all understand what is important.

[Jeff K.]

Guilt is a good thing sometimes.

[Deborah]

He gets enough abuse anyway!

My fault. I realized you, not Wade, made the reference I was addressing! Though Wade was kind of saying the same thing, and I edited the original post but not before MnG responded to it.

[William Schryver]

Consig,

Over the last 3-4 yrs that I've been reading the various threads here regularly...I want to say that "for the most part" I've always enjoyed your very frank and thought provoking questions. Having said that....I will share with you that the past few months I find myself kinda worrying about the direction you're going.

My initial impressions were that you were simply trying to stimulate thought...playing the ole role of "devil's advocate"...but now I sense that your overall attitude towards the church "in general" is a negative one. I just find that to be disconcerting...and quite frankly..kinda scarey.

These thoughts are not meant to be judgemental in any way...just a friend sharing his thoughts with his friend.

To address your initial question....I must say that my experience in the church since 1964...and having my fair share of leadership experiences in the church...and having seen first hand how horribly some leaders of the church can handle things....I can honestly say that I have never "hated going to church" (not saying you do..) because of boring Sacrament mtg speakers...bone dry GD teachers....amazingly dull EQ instructors...insensitive Bishops...or various other malcontents I've encountered in my journey of all things LDS. Why do you suppose I haven't been afflicted with "LDSnegativitus?" I ask that sincerely...it's not meant to bait you in any way. You and I have been a member of the church for a while now...and we each have "been around the track" our fair share....so I ask you sincerely.

In fact, I can say without hestitation that my attitude has been that I've always been proud and grateful that IMO...the church has always motivated it's members by being positive in it's approach..ie; "we would encourage you to do these things because of the JOY it can bring into your life", versus the "by gosh..you better do these things because if you don't BAAADDDDD things are going to happen to you." IMO...the church does not motivate using fear of punishment, but rather by the joy and happiness obedience will bring into ones life.

I really love the title of Elder Andersons GC talk entitled "It's true isn't it? What else matters?" To me....all of these various irritations and annoyances can all be filtered through that one thought. If this gospel you and I embrace is true..do these other things really merit this much of our time, thought and spiritual energy? Now..don't get me wrong...I'm all for asking tough doctrinal questions if we are honestly struggling with something that we find is becoming a huge stumbling block in our progression, but many of the issues you have raised as of late...seem like they're just being drudged up to be contentious..at least thats how they've been coming across to me....and thats me being one of your friends and "fans"!! hahaha

Ok...Take care my good friend! Thanks for the ear.

Randy

Earlier today I crafted a post that I contemplated for this thread. I subsequently chose to refrain from posting it. It came close to saying what I meant, but seemed to fail in other ways. Therefore I concluded that it was better to not post it at all. Imagine my gratification then to read this post from "Randy" (whom I don't recall previously seeing on the board) whose words succeed to convey much more fully what it was I really wanted to say, but did not.

I commend you for your comments, and I endorse them whole-heartedly.

[jadams_4242]

I mentioned to my wife (who hates going to Church) the other night that perhaps one reason Church could be so difficult is that the approved manuals always have purposes to the lessons, and the purposes more often than not are that we need to be doing something better than we are.

Sacrament meeting talks don't have a manual, but usually a topic is given to speakers by the bishopric and guess what? Those topics are usually on subjects where we need to improve.

So I suggested to her that going to Church and hearing for three hours every week how we aren't doing good enough could tend to be a little discouraging, and might contribute to folks not looking forward to the experience.

Fast forward to yesterday at Church where, in sacrament meeting, all three speakers were assigned to talk about reverence and how we weren't being reverent enough in the chapel, and how now, not only was the chapel off limits for socializing, but also the foyer just outside the chapel doors because, you know, they can hear you in the chapel.

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

I had to agree with her on that; it looked like I was right. I told her we all needed to line up for the little blue pills.

What do you think?

Is there too much Church Chat about how we aren't doing good enough? Is such a thing even possible within the framework of the Mormon Church?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Is this part of the reason non-Mormons think we are so works oriented?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I dont comprehend how anybody that knows and experiances the spirit can see things this way?

[mfbukowski]

My fault. I realized you, not Wade, made the reference I was addressing! Though Wade was kind of saying the same thing, and I edited the original post but not before MnG responded to it.

AHA! Mystery solved! Thanks! I thought I was losing (more of) my marbles!

[mfbukowski]

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

- Robert Zimmerman

Boom! <--- (lives Underground)

[cjcampbell]

Feeling guilty, Consiglieri?

Seriously, which is a more valuable use of our time -- a frank discussion of areas where we can improve, or a feel-good session of "All is well in Zion?" Perhaps you have achieved perfection, Consig, but the rest of us have not. That being the case, perhaps you can volunteer to speak on how we can improve ourselves to reach your level of perfection.

[randy]

Randy

There was a time when I found a ward to be relatively weak. Its people had little depth in the gospel. They seemed concerned with simplistic things rather than talking about the "real gospel". I found their talks "basic" and without strong analogies. It was a "workmans" ward you might say. Mostly blue collar. The talks were not entertaining enough to hold my attention. After a while I chose to stop coming to Sunday school, I would hang out elsewhere in the building. Of course my feelings were infectious. There were one or two others who felt the same way. We would talk about "deeper" gospel subjects on our own and in a way "chortle" at the lack of sophistication that radiated from those around us. After a while our group would leave and we would discuss things at a local cafe, ... and then later, some of us went inactive. Myself included.

One day something occurred that helped me understand part of the atonement, in a serious way. I began to study it out more in my mind, and my wife, bless her, was less worried about entertainment in the ward, and more concerned with a knowledge and application of the gospel in her life. Her patience, her example, and her continued love for me helped bring me back to a realization of how little I truly know about the gospel and how vulnerable those of any intellectual bent can be. I realized how incredibly foolish my constant grousing was, and how it was not a manifestation of my view as to how the ward can be better, but a justification of my short sighted desire for separation from God, as if His servants were not really good enough for me, and what I had to offer.

You now what really hurts though? Two of our small group left the church entirely, one left his wife. And I am partially to blame for that. Even now, almost two decades later, it hurts terribly to think about it.

It is one reason I am more easily upset with consig. He is doing (if his description of his life and questions are accurate) and writing about the same things I wrote of those many years ago.

Your post reminded me of an old friend that said the same thing to me so long ago. I ignored him when I shouldn't have. Thank heaven my kids were too young to remember my example, it would hurt me to have them remember even a part of me that way.

Thanks for helping us all understand what is important.

Jeff,

I really appreciate and thank you for this response. As I mentioned..I tend to read more, and post less...but over these years I feel I've come to "know" many of you...but because I don't post all that much..not many folks here know me. I must say that I've always enjoyed your congenial and well thought out responses. Your thoughts have always left me feeling uplifted and motivated. I thank you for that.

To share just a bit about me....I got married very young..just 3 weeks past my 16th birthday. My bride and I have actually been together since 5th grade when we went "steady".hahaha We have 6 children..all grown and married....and 15 grandbabies. I am 52. The reason I share this little BIO with you is to give you some insight as to how my attitude toward the church has evolved.

My family was baptized in 1964, my mother being in the hospital at the time, she overheard the Missionaries giving a blessing to her room-mate....and she just came out and told the Missionaries she wanted one too!! Our family was baptized...and then soon thereafter became in-active. My mother bless her heart...she tried..but she got zero support from my father..who was baptized..but who was never converted.

When my personal "perfect storm" hit in 1973..and I got married...we went to the only person I could think of to marry us...my Bishop. What a wonderful man...a true friend...and ultimately...a wonderful father to me. At the time he was a brand new Bishop...and would be my Bishop for the next 10yrs...and thereafter our Stake President for another 10yrs. The reason I share this..and how it relates to this thread is because it was because of the example of this one man and his wife that showed that 16yr old father what it truly meant to be a Latter Day Saint.

My Bishop back then shared with me things that he had struggled with...and things that he continued to struggle with. He taught me that it would be during this "struggle" in life that I would grow and truly develop my character...and nuture the attributes that would allow me to.....1) just stay married..hahaha.....2) to love my wife with all my heart,....3) to want to be the best Father a 16yr old can be.....4) weather the severe storm that was on the horizon and bearing down fast on me and my bride....5) allow me to have hope........6) to allow me to have peace.....7) to receive comfort.... to receive and nurture my faith and testimony of the Restored Gospel...which gospel I was only then beginning to learn...but yet had managed to firmly put myself in the "accelerated course". Yippee skippeee for me! hahaha

Over these many years now...I have had my share of valley's...as we all have had...or will have. When I read posts which seem to be overly negative about the church in general, and with them coming from active LDS...I can't help but think back on those early experiences...and about how the church has always been there for me and my family. As I mentioned...I have seen and personally experienced things that I could have used to justify a very hasty departure from the church. Things that were said and done by men and women I thought of highly...respected greatly. They were heartrending experiences...but through them all...my thoughts and feelings were the same as Elder Anderson's talk...."It's true isn't? What else matters?"

To me, when I read about all these things....and again, don't get me wrong...this discussion board is designed for sincere debate...and I enjoy the frank and honest sharing of views. But some of the gripes and complaints that are put forward about the church in general...it's manuals....disecting every word....every part and parcel of "this and that" etc, I just find it hard to be sympathetic.

To me..having been taught well...my feeling is that we should just remember some wonderful counsel my Bishop gave me when I served in the Bishopric with regards to the question a Priest asked him one time during BYC....which simply was..."Bishop...how do we repent?" His immediate answer was just as simple..and I've never forgotten it. It was simply..."Every morning when you wake up....just turn toward the light". I loved that response...and it resonated with the youth...and the adults. That was over 24yrs ago...and I think about it often. At that moment, for me..I knew it was direct revelation from God...to that Bishop.

All we need to do is to wake up...turn toward the light...do our best to "stand a little taller" that day...and to live this gospel to the best of our ability and understanding. If we do that...all will be well with us. We will not, or should not..feel any guilt about not being able to keep up with the "Peter Priesthoods" or "Molly Mormons" we encounter who try to impose their various "standards of activity" or their interpretation of what it means to be a "faithful member". We will already know.

Yes...there is a ton of work for the 20% of us to do. Yes, there is always areas in our life where we need improvement...and I'm thankful...that at least for me...the loving and respectful reminders I get over the pulpit from the boring speakers...and the less than scholarly GD teachers have helped me be a better husband and father....and amazingly enough..as boring as those talks and lessons may have been..I have always left the chapel and classroom better equipped to handle the warfare I know I would encounter during the week. Amazing how that happens!

I thank God for this Church. It has been, and continues to be truly...a "Pearl of Great Price" as well as "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder".

Jeff...thank you again for you response...and I look forward to getting to know you better in 2010!

Take care my good friend...and may God continue to bless you and yours!

Randy

[JDave]

...

Thank you. For both of your recent posts.

[wenglund]

Fair enough. To whom were you referring?

I didn't have anyone in particular in mind except perhaps myself.

You see, there are times when I take myself and life too seriously, and I tend to beat myself up more than I should. This leaves me raw and vurnable to taking too personally what others may say. And, because this hurts, and because things aren't going the way I want, this aggitates my impulse to control, which manifests itself in the form of viewing the situation in an overly negitive way and reacting with overly harsh criticisms and to some degree minding other people's business more than I should. If I am looking externally for problems, then in an unhealthy and disbenefitial way, that keeps me from looking internally for problems.

However, by acknowledging the irony, it reminds me to lighten up, have a sense of humor, do a better job of striking a healthy balance with the positive, and allow myself and others their humanity--i.e. be okay with flaws and imperfections in myself and others, and be fine with not always having things go the way I want. And, most importantly, to somewhat consern myself exclusively with what I actually can control, which includes the way I treat nyself and how I let the actions of others impact me.

I posted the irony here because I figured that if it can help me, maybe others could be helped by it as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rock_N_Roll]

Randy

Thank you. That made my day.

[mercyngrace]

Thanks for the clarification, Wade. I can appreciate what you're saying. This issue is kind of a sensitive one for me because I have seen many people despair to the point of leaving the church over the weight of perfectionism and the feeling that they are being asked to complete insurmountable tasks.

I don't know if people in densely populated LDS areas can appreciate this as much as those in areas where the church is smaller but I've seen people completely burn out working, raising a family, and have two or three callings. Then they show up on Sunday to EQ and get fussed out for not home teaching. Or the YW pres wants to know why their daughters didn't make it to youth night - after all - don't you know that's the most important place for them to be on Thursday nights!!! The saying around these parts is that "we tend to work our good horses to death". I can add from experience "and then we blame them for giving out on us!"

I don't think denying that we sometimes go too far in our exuberance is healthy. It makes the guilt-ridden feel even worse and it's a very real phenomena that (if you've read all the quotes I posted earlier in the thread) obviously concerns church leaders to some degree.

May we both continue to lighten up and may we lift others with us!

MnG

[Jeff K.]

..........................................................

Randy

Thanks, the same here Randy. I appreciate the context you have given us.

[O-Brother]

Sacrament meeting talks don't have a manual, but usually a topic is given to speakers by the bishopric and guess what? Those topics are usually on subjects where we need to improve.

So I suggested to her that going to Church and hearing for three hours every week how we aren't doing good enough could tend to be a little discouraging, and might contribute to folks not looking forward to the experience.

What do you think?

I

--Consiglieri

Caro Consiglieri: Come stai?

I thought that with so much talking on self-improvement, I'd be doing better by now but I still find myself in a less than improved state, so maybe in another 10 years of people nudging me to do better, I will be able to measure my actions and see if I made any improvment. Older people that I meet seem to still be struggling so I'm not sure how talks affected them either. The best self-improvement motivator that I know of is Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. The rest is usually just talk.

Most people giving talks are not trained to motivate so your wife might end up coming to Church during a talk that's less than motivating which might discourage her even further. Besides, the way things are set up, it's not even fair to expect our fellow brothers and sisters to give eloquent, earth-shattering talks that will shake our very foundations to the core. In all the years I've been a member of the Church, I am yet to hear such talk, but that's probably because my heart is hardened and my IQ level not up to par. The closest one to make me feel a little pressure in my prominentia laryngea, was when Bruce R. McConkie bore his testimony just weeks before he died.

I often thought that it would be nice to have more Church sponsored firesides to motivate people. Especially in these hard economic times when so many people are seeking help wherever they can find it. I've read somewhere that more and more people are going to Church to seek spiritual guidance and they can be sorely disappointed sitting through an hour of repetitive ramblings which occasionally happen in a ward near you. If we focused more on matters of the heart and not so much on matters of history and doctrinal stuff, people who feel like your wife might actually start enjoying meetings once again.

Think about it. What real training do we have as far as speaking in Church is concerned? It's either emulation or natural talent. Most of us just do the best we can by imitating what we see others do. A little more originality might change your wife's opinion, don't you think? Ask her. Then let us know what she says.

[Fiannan]

The more we dwell on something the more we will get. If we give positive talks dealing with the victories we are having with our youth, our activations and missionary work we will get more people wanting to do those things! If we deal with the shortcomings we instill learned-helplessness.

There was a study done on men who were involved in the 2008 elections. Reasearchers tested the testosterone levels of men in both the Obama and the McCain camps. When the election clearly had been won by Obama they tested the men again. The men who had worked for Obama had elevated testosterone while the McCain supporters saw a decrease in their levels. I saw a documentary on testosterone and endocrinology a couple of weeks ago where they did the same thing on two teams of rugby players. Once one team had clearly attained what would be a victory the same thing happened. The researchers in the documentary said this was a positive thing as when one feels like they are losing they will become more submissive to the winner and perhaps avoid fighting to the death for a lost cause.

A nagging wife or a depressing talk at Church will do the same thing. So if you expect to motivate a man to action don't get on his case. Kinda ironic since there are four ways to elevate testosterone naturally -- feeling victorious, having sex, exercise and viewing porn. Which things you think most men and women do subconsciously to get their vitality back up after getting nagged at home, work or church?

[MorningStar]

The more we dwell on something the more we will get. If we give positive talks dealing with the victories we are having with our youth, our activations and missionary work we will get more people wanting to do those things! If we deal with the shortcomings we instill learned-helplessness.

There was a study done on men who were involved in the 2008 elections. Reasearchers tested the testosterone levels of men in both the Obama and the McCain camps. When the election clearly had been won by Obama they tested the men again. The men who had worked for Obama had elevated testosterone while the McCain supporters saw a decrease in their levels. I saw a documentary on testosterone and endocrinology a couple of weeks ago where they did the same thing on two teams of rugby players. Once one team had clearly attained what would be a victory the same thing happened. The researchers in the documentary said this was a positive thing as when one feels like they are losing they will become more submissive to the winner and perhaps avoid fighting to the death for a lost cause.

A nagging wife or a depressing talk at Church will do the same thing. So if you expect to motivate a man to action don't get on his case. Kinda ironic since there are four ways to elevate testosterone naturally -- feeling victorious, having sex, exercise and viewing porn. Which things you think most men and women do subconsciously to get their vitality back up after getting nagged at home, work or church?

We all know what a tragedy it is when a man's testosterone lowers. When I ask my husband to take the garbage out tonight, I'll yell, "GO TEAM!!!!" That should make it all better. Maybe you should write the First Presidency and let them know our talks should revolve around making sure the guys' fragile testosterone levels remain stable? That is the most important thing.

I'm going to make a ribbon to raise awareness for low testosterone. We must find a cure before they all turn into women!

[mercyngrace]

We all know what a tragedy it is when a man's testosterone lowers. When I ask my husband to take the garbage out tonight, I'll yell, "GO TEAM!!!!" That should make it all better. Maybe you should write the First Presidency and let them know our talks should revolve around making sure the guys' fragile testosterone levels remain stable? That is the most important thing.

I'm going to make a ribbon to raise awareness for low testosterone. We must find a cure before they all turn into women!

Or you can yell "GO TEAM!!!" while performing another wifely duty so that Fiannan feels his work on the apologetics board is done ;-)

Seriously, Fiannan, do all your comments have to do with sex?

edit: Can't the link right, scroll up...

[Calm]

Seriously, Fiannan, do all your comments have to do with sex?

LOL, and here I was thinking there was no way he was going to be able to bring sex into this topic of Sacrament Meeting talks......

[Jeff K.]

People, people, lets be honest, it is one of the first commandments.

[staccato]

Fiannan is a perfect candidate for Hieros Gamos.

[MorningStar]

Or you can yell "GO TEAM!!!" while performing another wifely duty so that Fiannan feels his work on the apologetics board is done ;-)

Seriously, Fiannan, do all your comments have to do with sex?

edit: Can't the link right, scroll up...

Oh come on, Mercy! It's obvious Fiannan's interpretation is right. You have to read between the lines with a magnifying glass. Nephi's brothers weren't mad about his broken bow because of lack of food. They wanted to beat the crud out of him because he was infertile. Yeah. What guy doesn't get angry about that?

Thank you for the advice. I can't wait to yell, "GO TEAM!" for my husband. I'll be sending him to a clinic afterwards to check his testosterone levels.