The Mormon Guilt Trip

[mercyngrace]

It is hard to draw conclusions about your own home ward (which I don't belong to) and to draw conclusions about the church in general (which I am but a small part of). I think what the OP describes as a problem could truly be a problem in some specific wards and specific situations. I also think that what was described could be exactly what a ward needs. Trying to extrapolate the experience to the entire church certainly seems to be a bit too much.

If the bishop was following the Spirit in requesting more reverence in the chapel, but it seems that the message came out a bit odd, then we can always try to follow the Spirit ourselves in discerning how we can support what is really needed. There is some responsibility that falls on each one of us to choose how we will respond to what we hear. If someone speaks overly harshly, we can be offended or not. We can choose to try and understand where they are coming from and gain something from them, or we can choose to ignore them and whatever message they were attempting to convey.

The complaint that the church preaches too much perfectionism is partly the fault of those preaching and partly the fault of those hearing. Certainly there are those people out there that constantly complain that we aren't good enough. But there are plenty of people who also find it painful to be reminded that they still have some room to grow. Certainly there are people who focus too much on our personal efforts and neglect the necessary enabling power found only in the Atonement of Jesus Christ. But there are others who would like to believe that they've already made all the effort required, or those who demand perfection of themselves.

Mostly, I agree with you JDave, although I've put up several references and quotes now to show that the General leadership of the church recognizes this as a problem.

In fact, there is an entire article devoted to distinguishing between a healthy desire to follow Christ and perfectionism in the January 2006 New Era by Elder Samuelson. It was taken from an address he gave at the MTC.

[Lightbearer]

What do you think?

Is there too much Church Chat about how we aren't doing good enough? Is such a thing even possible within the framework of the Mormon Church?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Is this part of the reason non-Mormons think we are so works oriented?

First let me say this, yes the Church is "guilt trip city" that is the nature of the Church. That is what it's mission is. What exactly was the restoration for? To call people to repentance? For the perfecting of the Saints? Pick any scripture in any of the standard works, ninety nine percent of the time it is an exhortation to the reader to improve, to have more faith, to be more righteousness, to show forth more holiness. The Sermon on the mount was encouragement to be better, in fact the culmination was that we should: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." The whole purpose of God is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life... we are all fallen creatures, we are given agency for the express purpose that we should choose to follow after righteousness. If we choose not to do so then everything that is said or done in the scriptures and in Church to us is going to be a criticism of us. Unless we are living a Celestial life, we must needs be called unto repentance. We must be stirred up to repentance or Satan will grasp us with his chains, with the sins and imperfections that do so easily beset us, that binds us down, darkens our minds... and he will stir us up to anger and we perish. Now the trick is to call people to repentance without them hardening their hearts like Laman and Lemuel did to the teachings of Lehi and Nephi.

I realize it gets tiresome to hear the same old browbeating about home teaching, or every member a missionary, or not going to the Temple often enough... heck, just last Sunday a brother gave a talk in which he declared it was a "sin" not to hold a current temple recommend! Two Stake High Councilors were present and neither they or the Bishop corrected him... mostly because he was right. If we are given a commandment of the Lord and we fail to do it, then yes to them it is sin. There are just so many ways to call people to repentance, in fact it seems Mormon and Moroni had this problem:

(Moroni 9:4) "Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them."

Hopefully we as a Church are not approaching this point. So when we are called to repentance we get a chance to do one of two things, either we with humility ask "Lord is it I?" Or do we excuse ourselves and blame others for our not following the Lord. It is up to us, we can chose to rebel and wage war against God as Lucifer and his followers did, or we can say: "Father thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever."

[JDave]

Mostly, I agree with you JDave, although I've put up several references and quotes now to show that the General leadership of the church recognizes this as a problem.

In fact, there is an entire article devoted to distinguishing between a healthy desire to follow Christ and perfectionism in the January 2006 New Era by Elder Samuelson. It was taken from an address he gave at the MTC.

I certainly agree with you. I was only pointing out the the problem manifests itself in both the speaker and the listener. In facing the problem we may need to alter our lessons and talks, or we may need to change the way we react to what others teach and say -- it just depends on what end we are on at the time.

[bluebell]

Yep.

Actually our leaders are telling us to lighten up - it's usually the membership with the problem. Which is why I said above that it isn't doctrinal but stems from a misunderstanding of the atonement by adherents.

I agree, some members are crazy when it comes that this sort of thing.

Again though, it's the leaders who are writing the lesson manuals that the OP specifically mentioned as one of the problems. So while i truly believe that our leaders do not want us to be depressed or feel badly about our best efforts, they also want us to constantly focus on being better.

The OP seems to imply that focusing on being better is a bad thing. I don't think church leaders agree with the OP.

[mercyngrace]

Again though, it's the leaders who are writing the lesson manuals that the OP specifically mentioned as one of the problems.

Sure. But it's the members who are rehashing those conference talks every Sunday from local pulpits and putting their spin on things when they teach. Which is a great segue to that other thread going right now about teaching pure doctrine and sticking to the manuals... ;-)

I think we agree on the fundamental issue, Bluebell.

[wenglund]

Speaking of "intollerable" and so-called "guilt trips", isn't it interesting that some of the people complaining that Church is supposedly all about our not measuring up, are some of the same people often complaining that the Church, itself, particularly its lesson materials and Sacrament Meeting talks, doesn't measure up.

For my part, I don't view the lesson material and talks as guilt trips, but as edifying trips. To me it isn't about being criticized for not measuring up, but rather about being assisted in getting to where I want to go--i.e. becomnig like Christ.

As Bluebell mentioned, "we don't see things as they are, we see them as WE are."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[emeliza]

Actually our leaders are telling us to lighten up - it's usually the membership with the problem. Which is why I said above that it isn't doctrinal but stems from a misunderstanding of the atonement by adherents.

Now I see what you mean. I agree. I guess I haven't noticed this issue in our ward. I have only been a member 3 1/2 years and have only belonged to the one ward so I just haven't come across this issue before in terms of the Church.

[mercyngrace]

Speaking of "intollerable" and so-called "guilt trips", isn't it interesting that some of the people complaining that Church is supposedly all about our not measuring up, are some of the same people often complaining that the Church, itself, particularly its lesson materials and Sacrament Meeting talks, doesn't measure up.

For my part, I don't view the lesson material and talks as guilt trips, but as edifying trips. To me it isn't about being criticized for not measuring up, but rather about being assisted in getting to where I want to go--i.e. becomnig like Christ.

As Bluebell mentioned, "we don't see things as they are, we see them as WE are."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade,

Have you read this thread? Because Pres. Hinckley, Pres. Eyring, Elder Hafen, Elder Samuelson, and Sister Okazaki of the Gen RS presidency are my sources in suggesting that there is a problem with perfectionism in the church. CFR where I've ever suggested the manuals don't measure up?

I'm fairly sure you intended your comment toward Consiglieri but since I've been the one arguing his position throughout this thread (along with the esteemed aforementioned church leaders), I expect you to either support your assertion or qualify it.

MnG

Edit: Add Elder Russell M. Nelson to the list - I quote him later in the thread.

[Jeff K.]

When I have felt guilty about something being taught at church, it generally was because I realized it was something I could be doing, but haven't. Usually after reflection. Much of the time, especially with well made lessons that help us internalize doctrine, I have felt strengthened in learning how I can implement doctrines in my life to bring myself closer to the Lord.

Guilt, or rather the complaint of guilt, usually comes from two sources.

1-We honestly feel we have failed in some way to carry out our responsibilities regarding certain doctrines.

2-The other tends to be more ephemeral. An excuse, as if guilt were a bad thing to feel, and an attempt to minimize what we know we should be doing, so "you are making me feel guilty" is the equivalent of "your words are hard".

[Brenda]

I've heard it said that upon attending an LDS worship service someone remarked "Mormons must be the most miserable people on earth."

All too true much of the time.

Consider the sometime mormon who musters the nerve to attend a worship service only to hear for three hours how piss poor of a job they are doing.

I wouldn't blame them one bit for heading up the road to the EV church who (in spite of anything else you might criticize) has figured out how to make worshiping God a happy, guilt-free experience.

Not my experience. I walked out of church yesterday feeling uplifted.

Too often we hear what we want to hear, in order to bolster what we've already decided is true.

[mercyngrace]

When I have felt guilty about something being taught at church, it generally was because I realized it was something I could be doing, but haven't. Usually after reflection. Much of the time, especially with well made lessons that help us internalize doctrine, I have felt strengthened in learning how I can implement doctrines in my life to bring myself closer to the Lord.

Guilt, or rather the complaint of guilt, usually comes from two sources.

1-We honestly feel we have failed in some way to carry out our responsibilities regarding certain doctrines.

2-The other tends to be more ephemeral. An excuse, as if guilt were a bad thing to feel, and an attempt to minimize what we know we should be doing, so "you are making me feel guilty" is the equivalent of "your words are hard".

Sometimes guilt comes from unreasonable expectations.

Frankly, Jeff, I'm like you. I glean what I can from talks and lessons because I have gotten to the point where I can recognize when something applies to me and when it doesn't. I know when I'm already doing my best and can listen with an appreciation for the principle being taught without feeling the need to break out my Franklin Planner and begin a whole new list of impossible to keep long and short range goals.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the church who don't have that understanding and hold themselves and others to unattainable standards. Some of those people speak in church, teach lessons, and are even in positions of leadership. Some of them run roughshod over our wards and branches wielding an invisible sword of Laban and cutting tender souls asunder.

Here is yet another quote from an apostle recognizing the issue:

When comparing one

[wenglund]

Wade,

Have you read this thread? Because Pres. Hinckley, Pres. Eyring, Elder Hafen, Elder Samuelson, and Sister Okazaki of the Gen RS presidency are my sources in suggesting that there is a problem with perfectionism in the church. CFR where I've ever suggested the manuals don't measure up?

I'm fairly sure you intended your comment toward Consiglieri but since I've been the one arguing his position throughout this thread (along with the esteemed aforementioned church leaders), I expect you to either support your assertion or qualify it. MnG

If the metaphoric shoe doesn't fit, don't presume to put it on. And, please also don't presume to put it on Consiglieri's foot either.

To me, perfectionism is a function of how certain members mistakenly interpret what is being said in the lesson material and across the pulpet. It is a function of looking at things overly negatively and without proper balance and perspective (that is essentially the point of my post). The problem with the Church stating this as starkly as I have, is those who suffer from perfectionism will likely take it way too hard--i.e. as yet more evidence of their imperfection. So, compassionate leaders like those you mentioned, may have found an indirect approach to the problem--a way, from the Church's end, to ease the misperceived burden.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Sevenbak]

I don't tend to view Church negatively that way.

The whole need no physician, but them that are sick..

[mfbukowski]

Sometimes guilt comes from unreasonable expectations.

Frankly, Jeff, I'm like you. I glean what I can from talks and lessons because I have gotten to the point where I can recognize when something applies to me and when it doesn't. I know when I'm already doing my best and can listen with an appreciation for the principle being taught without feeling the need to break out my Franklin Planner and begin a whole new list of impossible to keep long and short range goals.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the church who don't have that understanding and hold themselves and others to unattainable standards. Some of those people speak in church, teach lessons, and are even in positions of leadership. Some of them run roughshod over our wards and branches wielding an invisible sword of Laban and cutting tender souls asunder.

The fact that a GA has to even address this issue in GC is very telling.

Want to know what the real problem is?

The real problem is that for every member like you who is doing there level BEST (and not just saying they are) there are probably 5 who are doing nothing.

And the bishopric is aware of how many people are not like you, and how hard it is to get people to do ANYTHING for themselves OR for the church, that they feel that there is a constant need to call people to repentance.

I did a search on the words "nothing but repentance" in the standard works and came up with 5- count them- 5 scriptures which said "cry nothing but repentance to this people", not counting all the other dozens which talk about repentance.

That's the problem. For every sensitive person who is trying their hardest, there are 5 or more who need to be called out.

And there are only a few opportunities a month to assign topics for talks.

What would you do?

[mercyngrace]

If the metaphoric shoe doesn't fit, don't presume to put it on. And, please also don't presume to put it on Consiglieri's foot either.

Fair enough. To whom were you referring? The remark about the lesson manual bore a striking resemblamce to any number of threads recently that turned personal. Since some of those threads were subsequently closed, you can rest assured that it isn't my interpretation of events.

To me, perfectionism is a function of how certain members mistakenly interpret what is being said in the lesson material and across the pulpet. It is a function of looking at things overly negatively and without proper balance and perspective (that is essentially the point of my post). The problem with the Church stating this as starkly as I have, is those who suffer from perfectionism will likely take it way too hard--i.e. as yet more evidence of their imperfection. So, compassionate leaders like those you mentioned, may have found an indirect approach to the problem--a way, from the Church's end, to ease the misperceived burden.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If you are saying that people who judge themselves to harshly are likely to also judge the church and its leaders, manuals, etc, too harshly also - then we are in agreement. If you are saying that this is merely a problem of the listener's then I respectfully disagree. I don't like to post negative experiences because you can't take them back once they are 'out there' but I will post an extreme on as an example.

I once, as a missionary, suffered an entire F&T meeting that was consumed by our bishop's 45 minute tirade on the dangers of drinking Coke. (I say suffered but it was actually a source of great amusement to the missionaries as we sat there - thank heavens we didn't have any investigators!) He told us we would go to hell for drinking caffeine.

Some of the same people who want to blame the listener for not hearing correctly here on this thread, are locked and loaded for speakers who don't bear their testimonies in the right way on another thread. So on the other thread, the same voices condemning speakers for not speaking the way they should are here, in this thread, suggesting that the speakers and teachers are always right and the listener is at fault.

The way it comes across to this faithful LDS woman is that anyone who disagrees with certain members of this board are wrong - regardless of the position they take.

[mercyngrace]

Want to know what the real problem is?

The real problem is that for every member like you who is doing there level BEST (and not just saying they are) there are probably 5 who are doing nothing.

And the bishopric is aware of how many people are not like you, and how hard it is to get people to do ANYTHING for themselves OR for the church, that they feel that there is a constant need to call people to repentance.

I did a search on the words "nothing but repentance" in the standard works and came up with 5- count them- 5 scriptures which said "cry nothing but repentance to this people", not counting all the other dozens which talk about repentance.

That's the problem. For every sensitive person who is trying their hardest, there are 5 or more who need to be called out.

And there are only a few opportunities a month to assign topics for talks.

What would you do?

I would invite people to know Christ and feel of His Spirit because as they do, they innately feel the need to repent. We love Him because He first loved us.

[Deborah]

Pres. Hinckley, Pres. Eyring, Elder Hafen, Elder Samuelson, and Sister Okazaki of the Gen RS presidency are my sources in suggesting that there is a problem with perfectionism in the church.

This isn't new however. I've heard this same thing addressed numerous times over the years. I think so much depends on where a person is at spiritually and emotionally. Yes, there are those who probably preach too much about what we should be doing, but I think this is often because they themselves feel they aren't measuring up. The main problem is with people hearing all the things they should be doing and somehow thinking that means all at once. People haven't learned to get perspective or to prioritize. The scriptures say "after all we can do..." Sometimes that all isn't much when you have been awake night after night with a sick child.

mfbukowski hit on something that is one of my pet peeves. And that is those who really don't do anything. They accept callings and then don't show up. Or they have children in Primary or YM/YW but you can't get them to support activities where their children should be. Or men who won't watch their children so their wives can attend RS. Of course the sad thing is any admonitions from the pulpit won't get through to these dense people anyway. And those who are already doing all these things and more will think that it's directed at them and then feel guilty because they aren't doing more.

I used to feel guilty all the time when I did something stupid or made a mistake. Now I just acknowledge the stupidity and kick myself and move on.

[randy]

Consig,

Over the last 3-4 yrs that I've been reading the various threads here regularly...I want to say that "for the most part" I've always enjoyed your very frank and thought provoking questions. Having said that....I will share with you that the past few months I find myself kinda worrying about the direction you're going.

My initial impressions were that you were simply trying to stimulate thought...playing the ole role of "devil's advocate"...but now I sense that your overall attitude towards the church "in general" is a negative one. I just find that to be disconcerting...and quite frankly..kinda scarey.

These thoughts are not meant to be judgemental in any way...just a friend sharing his thoughts with his friend.

To address your initial question....I must say that my experience in the church since 1964...and having my fair share of leadership experiences in the church...and having seen first hand how horribly some leaders of the church can handle things....I can honestly say that I have never "hated going to church" (not saying you do..) because of boring Sacrament mtg speakers...bone dry GD teachers....amazingly dull EQ instructors...insensitive Bishops...or various other malcontents I've encountered in my journey of all things LDS. Why do you suppose I haven't been afflicted with "LDSnegativitus?" I ask that sincerely...it's not meant to bait you in any way. You and I have been a member of the church for a while now...and we each have "been around the track" our fair share....so I ask you sincerely.

In fact, I can say without hestitation that my attitude has been that I've always been proud and grateful that IMO...the church has always motivated it's members by being positive in it's approach..ie; "we would encourage you to do these things because of the JOY it can bring into your life", versus the "by gosh..you better do these things because if you don't BAAADDDDD things are going to happen to you." IMO...the church does not motivate using fear of punishment, but rather by the joy and happiness obedience will bring into ones life.

I really love the title of Elder Andersons GC talk entitled "It's true isn't it? What else matters?" To me....all of these various irritations and annoyances can all be filtered through that one thought. If this gospel you and I embrace is true..do these other things really merit this much of our time, thought and spiritual energy? Now..don't get me wrong...I'm all for asking tough doctrinal questions if we are honestly struggling with something that we find is becoming a huge stumbling block in our progression, but many of the issues you have raised as of late...seem like they're just being drudged up to be contentious..at least thats how they've been coming across to me....and thats me being one of your friends and "fans"!! hahaha

Ok...Take care my good friend! Thanks for the ear.

Randy

[mercyngrace]

This isn't new however. I've heard this same thing addressed numerous times over the years. I think so much depends on where a person is at spiritually and emotionally. Yes, there are those who probably preach too much about what we should be doing, but I think this is often because they themselves feel they aren't measuring up. The main problem is with people hearing all the things they should be doing and somehow thinking that means all at once. People haven't learned to get perspective or to prioritize. The scriptures say "after all we can do..." Sometimes that all isn't much when you have been awake night after night with a sick child.

Wade hit on something that is one of my pet peeves. And that is those who really don't do anything. They accept callings and then don't show up. Or they have children in Primary or YM/YW but you can't get them to support activities where their children should be. Or men who won't watch their children so their wives can attend RS. Of course the sad thing is any admonitions from the pulpit won't get through to these dense people anyway. And those who are already doing all these things and more will think that it's directed at them and then feel guilty because they aren't doing more.

I used to feel guilty all the time when I did something stupid or made a mistake. Now I just acknowledge the stupidity and kick myself and move on.

Amen! I appreciate your comments, Deborah. I have always been a very strong-willed person so I don't crumble easily but I've seen many tender sisters, some brethren, too, cave under perceived pressure and spent many nights talking ooverwhelmed friends down from the ledge and into trusting Christ unto salvation.

As for those who aren't doing right - does constant chastisement work as effectively as inspiring them to believe? You said it yourself - admonitions from the pulpit won't get through anyway - what they need is to be inspired, loved into a desire to do right rather than beaten into an avoidance of wrong. Obviously, calls for repentance are important but we are talking about the people who actually made the effort to come to church... the peacable followers who want to be inspired. If they really didn't want to be there, they wouldn't be.

[consiglieri]

The point of the Gospel and ultimately our life here on Earth is to improve. To become better at putting off the natural man and therefore closer to becoming perfect like our Father.

I think this is a key area on which we need to focus.

I believe the scriptures teach that we cannot "become better at putting off the natural man" because it is not in our power to put him off at all. This is in the realm of "only God can do." And of course, it is the key thing that must be done in order to be saved.

It is possible that, as long as we think we can "put off the natural man," we are as far away from God as the most abject sinner, if not further.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[gtaggart]

I mentioned to my wife (who hates going to Church) the other night that perhaps one reason Church could be so difficult is that the approved manuals always have purposes to the lessons, and the purposes more often than not are that we need to be doing something better than we are.

Sacrament meeting talks don't have a manual, but usually a topic is given to speakers by the bishopric and guess what? Those topics are usually on subjects where we need to improve.

So I suggested to her that going to Church and hearing for three hours every week how we aren't doing good enough could tend to be a little discouraging, and might contribute to folks not looking forward to the experience.

Fast forward to yesterday at Church where, in sacrament meeting, all three speakers were assigned to talk about reverence and how we weren't being reverent enough in the chapel, and how now, not only was the chapel off limits for socializing, but also the foyer just outside the chapel doors because, you know, they can hear you in the chapel.

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

I had to agree with her on that; it looked like I was right. I told her we all needed to line up for the little blue pills.

What do you think?

Is there too much Church Chat about how we aren't doing good enough? Is such a thing even possible within the framework of the Mormon Church?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Is this part of the reason non-Mormons think we are so works oriented?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Are they giving them away for free? That's great because those little blue pills are running about $16 a piece now. Thanks for the heads up! I feel better already.

[mfbukowski]

Amen!

This is of no importance- but how did "mfbukowski" get turned into "Wade" in the above quote?

He gets enough abuse anyway!

[mfbukowski]

I believe the scriptures teach that we cannot "become better at putting off the natural man" because it is not in our power to put him off at all. This is in the realm of "only God can do." And of course, it is the key thing that must be done in order to be saved.

It is possible that, as long as we think we can "put off the natural man," we are as far away from God as the most abject sinner, if not further.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

This sounds awfully like "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" to me.

Where do you get this stuff, that we cannot put off the natural man? And WHAT is the "key thing that must be in order to be saved"?

Very confusing!

Edit: #

Mosiah 3: 19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

[consiglieri]

Where do you get this stuff, that we cannot put off the natural man? And WHAT is the "key thing that must be in order to be saved"?

The key thing is to be born again; having killed the natural man.

It is not something we can do for ourselves.

We are the fish in the fishbowl being told we have to clean the glass on the outside to be saved.

We keep scrubbing on the inside thinking we are accomplishing something.

But we're not.

(Where did THAT come from?)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[mfbukowski]

The key thing is to be born again; having killed the natural man.

It is not something we can do for ourselves.

We are the fish in the fishbowl being told we have to clean the glass on the outside to be saved.

We keep scrubbing on the inside thinking we are accomplishing something.

But we're not.

(Where did THAT come from?)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

In all fairness, you probably did not see my edit- It was probably made after this reply you made

Here is the scripture:

Mosiah 3: 19

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Seems pretty clear WE are supposed to "put off the natural man".