The Mormon Guilt Trip

[David T]

I've been out a few days and came back to see this.

Consiglieri- How is it the speakers were assigned "Reverence" as the topic? Second Sunday is High Council sacrament. The topic for the month and to which the High Councilman is to speak on was:

Sunday, 10 January 2010

High Council Speaker (Click for Topic)

"Burying the Weapons of Our Rebellion - Letting Go of Your Favorite Sin"

Reference: "Repent..That I May Heal You" - Elder Neil L. Anderson, Ensign, Nov. 2009, p. 40.

This is what your ward was to hear. Actually this was a very good topic and also fit in with Gospel Principles lesson at EQ that Sunday.

Maybe where you are. In our stake, High Council assignment is third Sunday, and topics do not come from Salt Lake, they are assigned by the stake. The scheduling, too, is subject to change, as it is this month in our stake - due to other scheduling interests. (It's on fourth Sunday this month - gives me an extra week to procrastinate my talk preparation )

[consiglieri]

This is what your ward was to hear. Actually this was a very good topic and also fit in with Gospel Principles lesson at EQ that Sunday.

It appears we have dueling correlation committees.

*strikes up banjo music*

[wenglund]

I didn't feel guilty for things I was doing - I've always lived the commandments. Even now, really. It was more feeling guilty for not being "perfect" enough. Guilt for things I wasn't doing well enough. I tried so hard -- but it wore me out.

But I have not given up on self-improvement. I read a lot, set goals for myself, try to become a better person. Just not within the confines of the church.

After the initial shock and destruction of my whole world view, I really am much happier.

I wish you well in your new-found happiness. It looks as though you found the key--i.e. it is YOU setting the gouls to live the commandments and to become a better persons. It's just unfortunate that you didn't figure this out while still a member of the Church since that is how the restored gosple is designed to work. You then would have been able to continue utilizing some of the principles and ordinances that are also designed to fascilitate and enhance becoming a better person. Oh well.

The good news is, the restored gospel is still here for you if you decide to change your mind and wish to rebuild your world view, but this time with a more accurate perspective of what the restored gospel is all about and is intended to do.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[consiglieri]

It's just that it appeared that Consig was taking the "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" route which implies that we don't have to do anything at all.

I don't know.

I am beginning to suspect we accomplish more when we aren't trying so darn hard and always being harped on about how we need to do better.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Nonsense. You're good enough. In fact, you're so good that you have no need whatsoever for a Saviour or for repentance. You're fine just the way you are. Don't even think about changing a thing.

There, do you feel better?

If by "better" you mean "pissed off," then yes.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[wenglund]

I am beginning to suspect we accomplish more when we aren't trying so darn hard and always being harped on about how we need to do better.

I don't feel "harped on", at least no more than is healthy for me. Certainly not during openning and closing songs and prayers, the musical numbers, the sacrament, and fast & testimony meetings. Perhaps its all in how one views things. Maybe I am not looking hard enough or critically enough. Maybe its not in my disposition to always harp about how the Church needs to do better, and so I am not disposed to see it the other way around. Who knows?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

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[mercyngrace]

I don't know.

I am beginning to suspect we accomplish more when we aren't trying so darn hard and always being harped on about how we need to do better.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Sometimes, in my experience, our short range and long range goals get turned around.

Like the activities committee director who is so obsessed with the right tablecloths she complains to everyone about the pitiful budget her bishop allocates because he just doesn't understand the real needs of the ward. Or the EQ president who loudly condemns the poor home teaching efforts of a companionship but doesn't realize that one guy is losing his house and working long hours to provide while the other is spending every spare second helping his wife cope with the daily needs of an autistic child. Or the single mother who rarely attends the temple because she has no money for a babysitter and is embarrassed to ask for help as she once overheard some sisters complaining in the foyer about how some women confuse the words "visiting teacher" with the words "babysitter."

I'm not suggesting this is the norm. These are a couple of particular situations I happen to know about. I know about a lot of really great ones also - where people are focused on showing love regardless of whether a calling requires it, a manual suggests it, or programs encourage it. I'm just saying that sometimes we forget that programs and commandments are designed to help us become like Christ. They are not an end unto themselves. Man wasn't made for the Sabbath. When our goals get turned around or we feel like the message we're getting emphasizes short range goals in the absence of our real divine purpose - Satan can jump right in and cause us to despair.

[Zakuska]

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[mfbukowski]

These are a couple of particular situations I happen to know about.

i have found that a significant problem is that everyone second guesses the bishop without really knowing what is going on in the ward.

A similar phenomenon happens I think when presidents get elected. They say one thing during the campaign, not being privy to the true circumstances, then suddenly reverse themselves when they get in office.

If everyone knew what the bishop knows, I think they would look at all this very differently!

Your point about the table cloths is right on the money! I have two brother in laws who are bishops, and the wards are thousands of miles apart, and we will get together occasionally at family reunions and discuss "bishoping" in general terms, and the problems we are having. (No names, obviously) and this topic always comes up. I think you don't really "get it" until you are there.

Everyone has an opinion, but only one person has the facts.

[mfbukowski]

I don't know.

I am beginning to suspect we accomplish more when we aren't trying so darn hard and always being harped on about how we need to do better.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think the key here is not worrying about how we are "being harped on", but learning how to "harp on" ourselves instead. I find I am much harder on myself than others are, though I do get a LOT of complaints about being ME and doing the best I can.

[mercyngrace]

i have found that a significant problem is that everyone second guesses the bishop without really knowing what is going on in the ward.

A similar phenomenon happens I think when presidents get elected. They say one thing during the campaign, not being privy to the true circumstances, then suddenly reverse themselves when they get in office.

If everyone knew what the bishop knows, I think they would look at all this very differently!

Your point about the table cloths is right on the money! I have two brother in laws who are bishops, and the wards are thousands of miles apart, and we will get together occasionally at family reunions and discuss "bishoping" in general terms, and the problems we are having. (No names, obviously) and this topic always comes up. I think you don't really "get it" until you are there.

Everyone has an opinion, but only one person has the facts.

Well, that wasn't really the point of the post ;-) but you are right, of course. I was simply using those example to say we lose focus sometimes and focus on the tittles rather than the message of the text. If we aren't focused on becoming Christlike, it doesn't matter what you consider "official doctrine". If you aren't focused on becoming Christlike, it doesn't matter what you say in you F&T testimony bearing. If you aren't focused on becoming Christlike, it doesn't matter how many goals you set for journal writing, temple attendance, scripture reading, calling fulfilment, etc. even good works can be vain oblations if they are done in the wrong spirit.

[handys003]

Uh, just so you know, those agendas vary from Stake to Stake and are set by the Stake President.

Our High council speakers are on the third sunday, and the topics are assigned by the SP, and the talk you quoted is not even on our schedule that I know of.

Thanks my good man. I was unaware it was stake to stake. Mahalo.

[Zakuska]

I often wonder if people in the New Testment Church would tell Paul to quit sending them on Guilt trips?

2 Cor 13

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

12 Greet one another with an holy kiss.

13 All the saints salute you.

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[DanGB]

I mentioned to my wife (who hates going to Church) the other night that perhaps one reason Church could be so difficult is that the approved manuals always have purposes to the lessons, and the purposes more often than not are that we need to be doing something better than we are.

Sacrament meeting talks don't have a manual, but usually a topic is given to speakers by the bishopric and guess what? Those topics are usually on subjects where we need to improve.

So I suggested to her that going to Church and hearing for three hours every week how we aren't doing good enough could tend to be a little discouraging, and might contribute to folks not looking forward to the experience.

Fast forward to yesterday at Church where, in sacrament meeting, all three speakers were assigned to talk about reverence and how we weren't being reverent enough in the chapel, and how now, not only was the chapel off limits for socializing, but also the foyer just outside the chapel doors because, you know, they can hear you in the chapel.

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

I had to agree with her on that; it looked like I was right. I told her we all needed to line up for the little blue pills.

What do you think?

This is one of this most frustrating things we witness on a continual basis in the Church here in Texas. It's hard enough to attract quality converts that would help build the gospel, and this type of experience is too common to keep good converts. We do a great job in the fellowship process, most seem to enjoy the process. But we have had, historically a rush to baptism so most converts I have known don't "really" know or understand much of Church culture, doctrine or practice. Then we have too many zealots that find it there duty to completely take control and overwhelm new members with how they should live the Church life only days after baptism. They are given the heavy dose of "we don't do, believe, practice, accept that in the Church! From food, TV, entertainment, friends, movies, music, Church participation, even baking goods!!! It's just way too much overwhelming control right off the bat. And guess what? Not hard to figure out why most leave soon after. Too much "instant conformity" as opposed to allowing for inquiry and comfort.

This has been an endless discussion in our area and

Is there too much Church Chat about how we aren't doing good enough? Is such a thing even possible within the framework of the Mormon Church?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Is this part of the reason non-Mormons think we are so works oriented?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[mfbukowski]

Well, that wasn't really the point of the post ;-) but you are right, of course. I was simply using those example to say we lose focus sometimes and focus on the tittles rather than the message of the text. If we aren't focused on becoming Christlike, it doesn't matter what you consider "official doctrine". If you aren't focused on becoming Christlike, it doesn't matter what you say in you F&T testimony bearing. If you aren't focused on becoming Christlike, it doesn't matter how many goals you set for journal writing, temple attendance, scripture reading, calling fulfilment, etc. even good works can be vain oblations if they are done in the wrong spirit.

No, I know, I agree with you.

I was just using one sentence of yours to kind of go off on my own pet peeve. Sorry for the confusion.

[mercyngrace]

No, I know, I agree with you.

I was just using one sentence of yours to kind of go off on my own pet peeve. Sorry for the confusion.

Oh, okay. I'm glad you got that off your chest. It's important to peeve your pets routinely or they build up too much energy and get really out of control ;-)

[Jeff K.]

I wonder if Christ had to put up with a great deal of noise and distractions from the apostles at his last supper? Or did they feel the moment was important and required a reverence that was slightly higher than normal?

What is sacrament meeting about? How should we approach it? Is a jovial pat on the back and the thump of good fellowship the appropriate response as we prepare to partake in sacred ordinances?

I mentioned to my wife (who hates going to Church) the other night that perhaps one reason Church could be so difficult is that the approved manuals always have purposes to the lessons, and the purposes more often than not are that we need to be doing something better than we are.

If she hates going to church, why does she go? If she hates going to church, she will not like the celestial kingdom either. If she doesn't want to improve herself, then by all means, allow her the opportunity to remain static and in her present kingdom, it is her agency after all. Her negative reflections or views will not help harken the spirit to others either. She won't be a support after all, just a stumbling block. As a mature adult (one takes the chance in presuming as much), perhaps she should be given the right of agency and she can prepare nesting in this kingdom.

So I suggested to her that going to Church and hearing for three hours every week how we aren't doing good enough could tend to be a little discouraging, and might contribute to folks not looking forward to the experience.

Imagine how inadequate she will feel in the celestial kingdom when she realizes taht she is still way behind and could be doing more? It would of course be cruel to place someone in such an "out of place" atmosphere for them.

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

I had to agree with her on that; it looked like I was right. I told her we all needed to line up for the little blue pills.

What do you think?

I think if your wife feels strongly about feeling inadequate that perhaps a church that does not require as much from its members in efforts to improve and become closer to the Lord, would be more to her taste. After all we all choose the kingdom we are most comfortable in. I would not force her to the celestial kingdom, or through the improvement process if she does not wish to go. Agency is very important in our doctrine.

[mercyngrace]

Another conversation reminded me of this thread and I just wanted to clarify a little something about the position I've taken on this thread.

In my experience, there are a lot of people in the church who don't understand grace. They think that "after all you can do" means they have to practically perfect themselves before Christ steps in. Doctrinally they are wrong, but sometimes culturally, we give the impression that this is true. I feel an incredible amount of compassion for these people because they have good hearts, want to do right, and are wearing themselves out without experiencing the joy of deliverance. Sometimes these tender hearted people hear things harder than they should and sometimes these well-intentioned souls speak in terms harder than they should and impact the way others understand grace. I think the references I've given earlier in this thread were aimed at these people. And I know my comments are directed toward those who are wearied in their well-doing.

On the other hand, if you felt so much guilt that you left the church and you are still miserable, that ought to be a big red flag that the problem wasn't the church or the gospel.

[Senator]

I wonder if Christ had to put up with a great deal of noise and distractions from the apostles at his last supper? Or did they feel the moment was important and required a reverence that was slightly higher than normal?

What is sacrament meeting about? How should we approach it? Is a jovial pat on the back and the thump of good fellowship the appropriate response as we prepare to partake in sacred ordinances?

If she hates going to church, why does she go? If she hates going to church, she will not like the celestial kingdom either. If she doesn't want to improve herself, then by all means, allow her the opportunity to remain static and in her present kingdom, it is her agency after all. Her negative reflections or views will not help harken the spirit to others either. She won't be a support after all, just a stumbling block. As a mature adult (one takes the chance in presuming as much), perhaps she should be given the right of agency and she can prepare nesting in this kingdom.

Imagine how inadequate she will feel in the celestial kingdom when she realizes taht she is still way behind and could be doing more? It would of course be cruel to place someone in such an "out of place" atmosphere for them.

I think if your wife feels strongly about feeling inadequate that perhaps a church that does not require as much from its members in efforts to improve and become closer to the Lord, would be more to her taste. After all we all choose the kingdom we are most comfortable in. I would not force her to the celestial kingdom, or through the improvement process if she does not wish to go. Agency is very important in our doctrine.

Are you serious Jeff?

You've got to be kidding, right?

If not, then this has got to be the biggest load of condescending crap I've ever heard!

[consiglieri]

I wonder if Christ had to put up with a great deal of noise and distractions from the apostles at his last supper? Or did they feel the moment was important and required a reverence that was slightly higher than normal?

Do you even know what happened at the Last Supper?

You sad, pathetic man,

See where you've brought us to.

Our ideals die around us,

And all because of you!

[Hamba Tuhan]

If by "better" you mean "pissed off," then yes.

Apparently, one just can't please some people....

[wenglund]

Apparently, one just can't please some people....

Pack your bags. I think you are now ready for a guilt trip.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Hamba Tuhan]

Pack your bags. I think you are now ready for a guilt trip.

Actually, one of the things I very much like about 'Mormonism' is that we don't really do guilt. When I was studying in America, a couple of women in one of my classes suggested we get together to do some work on a Sunday morning. I told them that I couldn't, that I went to church on Sunday.

'What time do you go to church?' one of them asked.

'9:00.'

'Well, then, we can meet up around 11:00 or so.'

'Actually, I don't finish my church service til noon. Then I drop a bunch of people home. Then I....'

'Wait! You go to church for three hours?!?'

'Yes.'

'Wow, they must really lay the guilt on you to get you to do that.'

'Er, actually, it has nothing whatsoever to do with guilt. I really enjoy church. It's my favourite place to be.'

All I got were stunned looks.

Which somehow seems to relate to this thread....

[wenglund]

Actually, one of the things I very much like about 'Mormonism' is that we don't really do guilt. When I was studying in America, a couple of women in one of my classes suggested we get together to do some work on a Sunday morning. I told them that I couldn't, that I went to church on Sunday.

'What time do you go to church?' one of them asked.

'9:00.'

'Well, then, we can meet up around 11:00 or so.'

'Actually, I don't finish my church service til noon. Then I drop a bunch of people home. Then I....'

'Wait! You go to church for three hours?!?'

'Yes.'

'Wow, they must really lay the guilt on you to get you to do that.'

'Er, actually, it has nothing whatsoever to do with guilt. I really enjoy church. It's my favourite place to be.'

All I got were stunned looks.

Which somehow seems to relate to this thread....

I'm with you. I have no desire to take a guilt trip, but prefer instead a joy ride.

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-