The Mormon Guilt Trip

[MorningStar]

I just realized something. I haven't been pregnant in over 16 months. Do you think it's because my husband voted for McCain?

[randy]

We all know what a tragedy it is when a man's testosterone lowers. When I ask my husband to take the garbage out tonight, I'll yell, "GO TEAM!!!!" That should make it all better. Maybe you should write the First Presidency and let them know our talks should revolve around making sure the guys' fragile testosterone levels remain stable? That is the most important thing.

I'm going to make a ribbon to raise awareness for low testosterone. We must find a cure before they all turn into women!

MorningStar,

I have to tell ya...THAT made me chuckle out loud! I couldn't help but chuckle too when I thought about how my wife is probably wondering..."man..I wish my husbands testosterone would lower...this is getting old". hahaha

[mercyngrace]

LOL, and here I was thinking there was no way he was going to be able to bring sex into this topic of Sacrament Meeting talks......

Cal, you underestimate his obsession.

[mercyngrace]

MorningStar,

I have to tell ya...THAT made me chuckle out loud! I couldn't help but chuckle too when I thought about how my wife is probably wondering..."man..I wish my husbands testosterone would lower...this is getting old". hahaha

I don't think anyone named Randy ought to be involved in this conversation.

[MorningStar]

I don't think anyone named Randy ought to be involved in this conversation.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

I'm crying. Seriously. I'm laughing so hard.

[MorningStar]

MorningStar,

I have to tell ya...THAT made me chuckle out loud! I couldn't help but chuckle too when I thought about how my wife is probably wondering..."man..I wish my husbands testosterone would lower...this is getting old". hahaha

Apparently nagging is the secret. Just don't let your wife know. Shhhhhhh .....

[Hestia]

There was a study done on men who were involved in the 2008 elections. Reasearchers tested the testosterone levels of men in both the Obama and the McCain camps.

What does this have to do with the topic? Stick to the topic with appropriate examples.

[Fiannan]

What does this have to do with the topic? Stick to the topic with appropriate examples.

Isn't this part of the topic? How people feel after a particular event? The election example shows how one's physiology can be changed through external events such as a feeling of winning or losing. So if you hear a talk in which you are told you are not doing enough then the body's endocrine system will react appropriately as if one were in nature and one has been subjected to defeat (i.e. in a courtship battle or a fight for dominance of a herd). If one wants to motivate people to go out and do their home teaching or tell their friends about the Gospel then the best way is to emphasize victory and success. Then your body will react as a victor and you will have more courage.

Remember, the scriptures make it clear we are composed of mind, body and spirit and we are also told these elements interact with each other. That is why we will gain spiritual insight by obeying the WofW even though it is ultimately based on biological foundations.

[wenglund]

Thanks for the clarification, Wade. I can appreciate what you're saying. This issue is kind of a sensitive one for me because I have seen many people despair to the point of leaving the church over the weight of perfectionism and the feeling that they are being asked to complete insurmountable tasks.

I hear you as well, and I have also felt a depth of sorrow and compassion for those crumbling under the weight of perfectionism and guilt, some to the point of leaving the Church or getting sucked into the tenatious clutsches of depression and anxiety. I am sensitive to it because, to some degree, I have personally experienced it myself, and vicariously through loved ones and acquaintences.

It is just that I am a big fan of self-empowerment--taking control over the things in our lives that we actually can control, like the level of our personal perfectionism, adjusting it to healthy levels ourselves, and not leaving that in the hands of those, like Bishops, who may have no idea we have shouldered them with that weighty responsibility, and who may not have much control over our disposition as it is--in part because of the diversity of indivduals under their stuartship and the likelyhood of their inadvertantly displeasing some of the people some of the time.

I believe I do myself and others, like the Bishop, a favor by being self-empowered and taking control. And, I do myself and others a disservice by focusing externally for the problems and solutions, rather than internally.

In other words, if I or someone else leaves the Church due to feelings of guilt and being overburden and under compensated, or if I or someone else finds ourselves persistently depressed and anxious from want of measuring up, as regreettable as this is, we really have ourselves to blame. It is our choise to decide for ourselves to take control of the rudder of our emotional ship or to be washed to and fro by every wind and wave of oft unwitting external forces.

Besides, I don't view it as my place, nor am I in any real position, to lecture or advise church leaders on how to do their job so as to not aggitate my unhealthy levels of perfectionism. I will leave it to them to advise me in that regard as they see fit. And, I think I would be doing other perfectionist members and former members a disservice to suggest that they do otherwise.

But, as always, I respect that you and others may see it differently, and so to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Fiannan]

We all know what a tragedy it is when a man's testosterone lowers. When I ask my husband to take the garbage out tonight, I'll yell, "GO TEAM!!!!" That should make it all better. Maybe you should write the First Presidency and let them know our talks should revolve around making sure the guys' fragile testosterone levels remain stable? That is the most important thing.

I'm going to make a ribbon to raise awareness for low testosterone. We must find a cure before they all turn into women!

"Anatomy is destiny" Sigmund Freud

You know, there is nothing that defines us more than our gender and the innate (biological and spiritual) ramifications of such. Again, to ignore this aspect of the human condition only serves to villify that which God ordained. And there are studies out there that domonstrate that males with high testosterone are better at going after goals and having success. Can't argue that hormones affect behavior.

Now one can mock psychology but they cannot in any way ignore that rhetorics touches us in ways that can change our physiological state. Negativity will lead to the body going into shut down while positivity will cause a person to flourish. There are spiritual as well as pure biological forces involved here. So if one wants to buld up a person then they will gain positive results from doing so. Does that mean the genders tend to look for different aspects in a speech? Perhaps so. Do words and tone affect us to where one can get a message across but get totally different results depending on how it is delivered and what words are used? Absolutely. Maybe the Church leaders should hire Frank Luntz or Clotaire Rapaille to help in the delevery of messages that motivate and electrify an audience.

It is perfectly acceptable to use psychology and science to promote the Gospel. However, I suppose that could gain opposition as Carl Jung once observed the best way to make a religious person angry with you is to show through rational devices and science why religion is actually correct.

[Zakuska]

Thanks Fiannan... NOW it all makes sense!

http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=121585861

[wenglund]

It is perfectly acceptable to use psychology and science to promote the Gospel.

Ironically, whether intended or not (I believe you have only the best of intents), the psychology you used earlier in the thread was way overly feminized.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

People, people, lets be honest, it is one of the first commandments.

oops, lost track of what thread I was in....

[paulpatter]

I mentioned to my wife (who hates going to Church) the other night that perhaps one reason Church could be so difficult is that the approved manuals always have purposes to the lessons, and the purposes more often than not are that we need to be doing something better than we are.

Sacrament meeting talks don't have a manual, but usually a topic is given to speakers by the bishopric and guess what? Those topics are usually on subjects where we need to improve.

So I suggested to her that going to Church and hearing for three hours every week how we aren't doing good enough could tend to be a little discouraging, and might contribute to folks not looking forward to the experience.

Fast forward to yesterday at Church where, in sacrament meeting, all three speakers were assigned to talk about reverence and how we weren't being reverent enough in the chapel, and how now, not only was the chapel off limits for socializing, but also the foyer just outside the chapel doors because, you know, they can hear you in the chapel.

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

I had to agree with her on that; it looked like I was right. I told her we all needed to line up for the little blue pills.

What do you think?

Is there too much Church Chat about how we aren't doing good enough? Is such a thing even possible within the framework of the Mormon Church?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Is this part of the reason non-Mormons think we are so works oriented?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

We live in a representative democracy. As members of the Church, however, we function under a theocracy.

All of us need to be reminded of that fact from time to time.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks for the clarification, Wade. I can appreciate what you're saying. This issue is kind of a sensitive one for me because I have seen many people despair to the point of leaving the church over the weight of perfectionism and the feeling that they are being asked to complete insurmountable tasks.

I don't know if people in densely populated LDS areas can appreciate this as much as those in areas where the church is smaller but I've seen people completely burn out working, raising a family, and have two or three callings. Then they show up on Sunday to EQ and get fussed out for not home teaching. Or the YW pres wants to know why their daughters didn't make it to youth night - after all - don't you know that's the most important place for them to be on Thursday nights!!! The saying around these parts is that "we tend to work our good horses to death". I can add from experience "and then we blame them for giving out on us!"

I don't think denying that we sometimes go too far in our exuberance is healthy. It makes the guilt-ridden feel even worse and it's a very real phenomena that (if you've read all the quotes I posted earlier in the thread) obviously concerns church leaders to some degree.

May we both continue to lighten up and may we lift others with us!

MnG

The answer to this is easier said than done. In some callings this can seem almost an insurmountable problem, but I have found that on rare occasions I am able to get so much joy out of serving and doing the Lord's work that it eclipses all those feelings of frustration and resentment.

But it is always essential that we "charge our own batteries" with scriptures and prayer. It is too hard to always "give without getting" especially when one is teaching continually, but never learning ourselves. You can't be a one-way pitcher that only pours out, and never re-fills. You just need to learn to refill in different ways than your students do, because they are counting on you to always be "full".

If we can just keep before us that we are on HIS errand, not ours, it helps immeasurably.

I will try to take my own advice here more often!

[mercyngrace]

Wade -

I think we probably don't see it all that differently. I wouldn't presume to tell the bishop what peole should talk about on Sunday ;-) He's got enough to handle without advice from me.

My reason in joining this particular debate is that I don't want the very real issue swept under the rug. Admitting that this is a problem for a number of people in the church and recognizing that sometimes what we say and how we say it can be hurtful is a good thing! It can help us moderate our approach.

Consider how Jacob broached the ugly topic of marital infidelity, taking into account those who would hear hard words unnecessarily:

Now, my beloved brethren, I, Jacob, according to the responsibility which I am under to God, to magnify mine office with soberness, and that I might rid my garments of your sins, I come up into the temple this day that I might declare unto you the word of God.

3 And ye yourselves know that I have hitherto been diligent in the office of my calling; but I this day am weighed down with much more desire and anxiety for the welfare of your souls than I have hitherto been.

4 For behold, as yet, ye have been obedient unto the word of the Lord, which I have given unto you.

5 But behold, hearken ye unto me, and know that by the help of the all-powerful Creator of heaven and earth I can tell you concerning your thoughts, how that ye are beginning to labor in sin, which sin appeareth very abominable unto me, yea, and abominable unto God.

6 Yea, it grieveth my soul and causeth me to shrink with shame before the presence of my Maker, that I must testify unto you concerning the wickedness of your hearts.

7 And also it grieveth me that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God;

8 And it supposeth me that they have come up hither to hear the pleasing word of God, yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul.

9 Wherefore, it burdeneth my soul that I should be constrained, because of the strict commandment which I have received from God, to aadmonish you according to your crimes, to enlarge the wounds of those who are already wounded, instead of consoling and healing their wounds; and those who have not been wounded, instead of feasting upon the pleasing word of God have daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds.

10 But, notwithstanding the greatness of the task, I must do according to the strict commands of God, and tell you concerning your wickedness and abominations, in the presence of the pure in heart, and the broken heart, and under the glance of the piercing eye of the Almighty God.

Quite the balanced approach - I love Jacob!

[Fiannan]

A study of highly pressured London traders, whose jobs requires risk taking and quick responses, found the most successful had long ring fingers in relation to their index fingers.

The trait - which is associated with higher exposure to testosterone in the womb - is thought to be linked to attributes such as confidence, risk-taking ability, extra vigilance and quick reactions.

Such qualities could provide traders making snap decisions on high-risk deals with a competitive edge, the research suggests.

Not only did traders with long ring fingers make on average six times more money, they survived more years in a cut-throat world which weeded out the weak and unprofitable.

and...

Traders with long ring fingers made up to 11 times the earnings of their counterparts. On average they made six times as much, and the legnth of their ring finger was as influential as their experience.

The research mirrored previous studies which link finger ratios with performance in competitive sports such as football, rugby, basketball and skiing.

Dr Coates, reporting in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, said the findings show that success on the financial markets is influenced by biology as much as mental ability and experience.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/4223545/Ring-finger-length-linked-to-City-stockbrokers-success-claim-scientists.html

Now this study has been done on males and their early exposure to testosterone but I have seen research that suggests that much of the mental slowdown (vigor) associated with middle age is due to declining levels of this horemone. Maybe this is what Brigham Young was pointing to when he was discussing an older man who married a young woman and that it appeared to return to him his youth and strength. I think Brigham Young got it while many people in the Church today might not.

So yes, your most effective warriors for Christ will be the ones who are strong in mind, body and spirit. Scoff if you like but our bodies are governed by the same natural processes that govern all higher mammals. It is just that we have been given the ability to use the Spirit as a tool as much as a human might use a computer to get information or a chimp might use a twig to capture ants and termites for a meal.

[MorningStar]

"Anatomy is destiny" Sigmund Freud

"Sigmund Freud was a perv." ~ MorningStar

[William Schryver]

I just realized something. I haven't been pregnant in over 16 months. Do you think it's because my husband voted for McCain?

You do understand how you got pregnant the other times ... right?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You do understand how you got pregnant the other times ... right?

I wish I knew, my wife and I are still trying to figure out how we just had our daughter. She is a week old now.

[mercyngrace]

You do understand how you got pregnant the other times ... right?

Voting for President Bush?

[MorningStar]

On the subject, there's nothing wrong with being told to improve on a regular basis. The Gospel is about improving and Jesus Christ making up the difference. When we keep His commandments, were are loving Him. The bishop is the shepherd of the ward and by inspiration, he decides what we need to hear. It's not going to be everyone's favorite subject every week, but someone is going to benefit from it.

[randy]

I don't think anyone named Randy ought to be involved in this conversation.

hahahaha! OH my Gosh!!! Stop it..stop it!! I'm crying here...stop it! I guess this wouldn't be the best time to tell you my last name is Johnson would it? Really..it is! ok..ok...we must stop....this is all waaay to funny! Ok...just one more thing...the guy's at work call me the "little unit" because Randy Johnson of MLB is called the "big unit"....see what they did there? Not that I particulary like that moniker...but I'm secure enough in my testosterone....er uh..I mean my masculinity that I handle it ok....most of the time!

[MorningStar]

My husband went to the priesthood session of General Conference with a friend's husband. The friend's husband came back and complained that they had to hear about porn AGAIN. My response:

Then stop looking at porn!

Totally didn't know then that he was looking at porn. Maybe as we all improve with many things, we'll get to hear more uplifting messages?

[mercyngrace]

hahahaha! OH my Gosh!!! Stop it..stop it!! I'm crying here...stop it! I guess this wouldn't be the best time to tell you my last name is Johnson would it? Really..it is! ok..ok...we must stop....this is all waaay to funny! Ok...just one more thing...the guy's at work call me the "little unit" because Randy Johnson of MLB is called the "big unit"....see what they did there? Not that I particulary like that moniker...but I'm secure enough in my testosterone....er uh..I mean my masculinity that I handle it ok....most of the time!

Well... if you aren't secure enough, Fiannan has the cure... EXERCISE!!!