mercyngrace Posted January 11, 2010 Posted January 11, 2010 (Where did THAT come from?)--ConsiglieriBoy! You got me?! I don't think we're being told to clean the outside of the fishbowl. I think some mistakenly think we are being told to clean the outside of the fishbowl...er, uh, something like that...
mercyngrace Posted January 11, 2010 Posted January 11, 2010 This is of no importance- but how did "mfbukowski" get turned into "Wade" in the above quote?He gets enough abuse anyway!Huh?
bluebell Posted January 11, 2010 Posted January 11, 2010 I don't think we're being told to clean the outside of the fishbowl. I think some mistakenly think we are being told to clean the outside of the fishbowl...I completely agree with you.
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2010 Posted January 11, 2010 Huh?In post 44 you quoted Deborah making a comment about Wade:"Wade hit on something that is one of my pet peeves..."When in fact, Deborah said, in post 42:"mfbukowski hit on something that is one of my pet peeves..."Again, it is of no importance whatsoever-- it was just weird that it got changed!
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2010 Posted January 11, 2010 All I know is that people who live in fishbowls shouldn't throw stones.... or something like that....
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 I vote Consiglieri be forever known as...SHARK BAIT Boo Ha Ha!
rodheadlee Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 IConsider the sometime mormon who musters the nerve to attend a worship service only to hear for three hours how piss poor of a job they are doing.Bingo, you made me laugh, but it's true.
consiglieri Posted January 12, 2010 Author Posted January 12, 2010 Seems pretty clear WE are supposed to "put off the natural man".My reading of the passage is that what we have to do is to "yield," or in other words, "get out of the way" and quit trying to do it ourselves.All the Best!--Consiglieri
consiglieri Posted January 12, 2010 Author Posted January 12, 2010 I vote Consiglieri be forever known as...SHARK BAIT Boo Ha Ha!Fish are friends, not food.
bluebell Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 My reading of the passage is that what we have to do is to "yield," or in other words, "get out of the way" and quit trying to do it ourselves.All the Best!--ConsiglieriWe are supposed to 'yeild' to the enticings of the Spirit though. I don't think the verse is teaching that Spirit will entice us to do nothing.
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 In post 44 you quoted Deborah making a comment about Wade:"Wade hit on something that is one of my pet peeves..."When in fact, Deborah said, in post 42:"mfbukowski hit on something that is one of my pet peeves..."Again, it is of no importance whatsoever-- it was just weird that it got changed!Ahhh - Got it. I thought I had confused you two and was wondering how in the heck that happened since Wade's comment annoyed me a little while yours, of course, never do ;-)
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Fish are friends, not food.But nemo was trying to make his bowl as dirty as possible.
Glenn101 Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Isn't that like complaining that Stanley Steemer is always telling you your carpets need cleaning?Of course it is. How else are those crafty bishops going to further inflate their already heft paychecks except by guilt trips to get the members to pony up more and more donations?And now for something completely indifferent. One poster has noted the general trend of negativity evinced by some posters. I do not want this to turn into anything pointed, offensive or personal. It is my personal view that it is incumbent upon each of us to do all that we can to help make our branches and wards a better place so that others will feel welcome and edified when they come to church.One of the best things that could happen to some of the naysayers would be a call to be a bishop or branch president. No sane person could ever desire such a calling. I spent a couple of years as Executive Secretary to a branch presidency and I will be forever humbled by what I saw that presidency cope with. They have an incredible burden thrust upon them and sometimes the inspiration does maybe border on the desperation circle. But those men deserve our fervent support.Take the reverence issue. Is there not something that we as individuals can do to help? Can we not look at ourselves first, and note if we are causing a little reverence problem and suggest to those to whom we wish to converse to move our conversation to a more appropriate venue?Just my two cents worth.Glenn
consiglieri Posted January 12, 2010 Author Posted January 12, 2010 But nemo was trying to make his bowl as dirty as possible. D'oh!Curse you, Aqua-Scan!
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 We are supposed to 'yeild' to the enticings of the Spirit though, so if the Spirit entices us to do something (like be reverent in sacrament meeting, maybe), we should do that ourselves and not expect Christ to do it for us. But D&C 88 explains that the quickening process or sanctification is the work of the Spirit. As I understand it, the process goes something like this:We learn the law.The Spirit quickens our understanding.We live the law.The Spirit sanctifies us to the glory of the law we abide.We learn a higher law.The Spirit quickens our understanding.We live the law.The Spirit sanctifies us to the glory of the law we abide.(Wash rinse and repeat...)Until ultimately, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him. (D&C 88:49)So while it is true that we must learn the law (our part) the Spirit has to quicken our understanding (testify of and confirm what we've learned) for us to be accountable for that law. Then as we live the law we are sanctified (made pure) by the Spirit.
mfbukowski Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Ahhh - Got it. I thought I had confused you two and was wondering how in the heck that happened since Wade's comment annoyed me a little while yours, of course, never do ;-)Dang!I'll have to try harder!
staccato Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Can guilt and quickening of the spirit exist in the same realm?I would think you would want to focus on uplifting and positive messages of worship. When that is accomplished, the work flows naturally and without need for guilting.I attended a UU worship service yesterday. It was lovely. Lovely music, love readings, not a hint of calling anyone to repentance for anything. I do not believe that guilt is an effective mechanism for achieving a desired response.
bluebell Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 But D&C 88 explains that the quickening process or sanctification is the work of the Spirit. As I understand it, the process goes something like this:We learn the law.The Spirit quickens our understanding.We live the law.The Spirit sanctifies us to the glory of the law we abide.We learn a higher law.The Spirit quickens our understanding.We live the law.The Spirit sanctifies us to the glory of the law we abide.(Wash rinse and repeat...)Until ultimately, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him. (D&C 88:49)So while it is true that we must learn the law (our part) the Spirit has to quicken our understanding (testify of and confirm what we've learned) for us to be accountable for that law. Then as we live the law we are sanctified (made pure) by the Spirit.I thought that's what i said (though with much less words so maybe it wasn't at all clear).When we have faith in Christ, repent, are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, we are justified under the law and declared guiltless. As we live the law by following the enticings of the Spirit, we are sanctified through the Spirit and become like Christ.We-our actions, our thoughts, our hearts-are a necessary part of the process, but they are not the part that does the justifying or the sanctifying.
bluebell Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Can guilt and quickening of the spirit exist in the same realm?I would think you would want to focus on uplifting and positive messages of worship. When that is accomplished, the work flows naturally and without need for guilting.I attended a UU worship service yesterday. It was lovely. Lovely music, love readings, not a hint of calling anyone to repentance for anything. I do not believe that guilt is an effective mechanism for achieving a desired response.Guilt has it's place. I personally would not want to live in a world where no one felt any guilt for doing something wrong. Would you?
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Guilt has it's place. I personally would not want to live in a world where no one felt any guilt for doing something wrong. Would you?Well - I think the distinction is between guilt and shame. Guilt is the feeling the sinner has. Shame is the feeling we impose upon him through our judgement.We all need guilt in order to recognize our need for a Savior. It's shame that isn't effective. I don't know about the rest of you but I feel more guilt when in the presence of someone I have unjustly wronged who refuses to exact his deserved recompense than in the presence of one who takes his pound of flesh and them continues to rail me for my weakness.Charity, Christlike love, is the only power that affects lasting change on the soul.
ERMD Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 And if what you are hearing isn't "truth" but the philosophies of men mingled with truth?Adding a dash of spice to your food for thought ;-)If that's what you think you're getting when you go to church, maybe you should go somewhere else.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Guilt has it's place. I personally would not want to live in a world where no one felt any guilt for doing something wrong. Would you?I agree... isn't that the feeling that the whole bleeding Jesus on a cross is supposed invoke in the parisioner?
bluebell Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Well - I think the distinction is between guilt and shame. Guilt is the feeling the sinner has. Shame is the feeling we impose upon him through our judgement.We all need guilt in order to recognize our need for a Savior. It's shame that isn't effective. I don't know about the rest of you but I feel more guilt when in the presence of someone I have unjustly wronged who refuses to exact his deserved recompense than in the presence of one who takes his pound of flesh and them continues to rail me for my weakness.Charity, Christlike love, is the only power that affects lasting change on the soul.We agree.
mercyngrace Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 If that's what you think you're getting when you go to church, maybe you should go somewhere else.ERMD,The whole world is my Gospel Doctrine class But there's a whole crop of people on the board who feel they are hearing the wrong things at church. Check it out: The Last Mormon Freedom Maybe you can invite them to worship elsewhere and see how they take it...MnG
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