The Mormon Guilt Trip

[randy]

Apparently nagging is the secret. Just don't let your wife know. Shhhhhhh .....

aahhhh....ok..got it. mum's the word! I shall experiment!

[MorningStar]

hahahaha! OH my Gosh!!! Stop it..stop it!! I'm crying here...stop it! I guess this wouldn't be the best time to tell you my last name is Johnson would it? Really..it is! ok..ok...we must stop....this is all waaay to funny! Ok...just one more thing...the guy's at work call me the "little unit" because Randy Johnson of MLB is called the "big unit"....see what they did there? Not that I particulary like that moniker...but I'm secure enough in my testosterone....er uh..I mean my masculinity that I handle it ok....most of the time!

That is dang funny.

[MorningStar]

Well... if you aren't secure enough, Fiannan has the cure... EXERCISE!!!

But testosterone is linked to aggression. If my husband starts exercising, I'm going to have to nag him an extra lot so he won't go on a violent rampage.

[randy]

On the subject, there's nothing wrong with being told to improve on a regular basis. The Gospel is about improving and Jesus Christ making up the difference. When we keep His commandments, were are loving Him. The bishop is the shepherd of the ward and by inspiration, he decides what we need to hear. It's not going to be everyone's favorite subject every week, but someone is going to benefit from it.

Amen Sister...Amen! and ya know what? It's just that simple.

[MorningStar]

Amen Sister...Amen! and ya know what? It's just that simple.

Why, thank you!

I have to stop laughing now so I can go plan my scientific strategy on how to get my husband's testosterone at the appropriate level tonight. Hey, what does laughing do for testosterone? I'll have to factor that in. I might have to give him three nags per laugh.

[Hestia]

You know, there is nothing that defines us more than our gender and the innate (biological and spiritual) ramifications of such.

I still fail to see how testosterone or Freud has anything to do with this thread. I think we don't need any further discussion on this issue from you.

[randy]

Why, thank you!

I have to stop laughing now so I can go plan my scientific strategy on how to get my husband's testosterone at the appropriate level tonight. Hey, what does laughing do for testosterone? I'll have to factor that in. I might have to give him three nags per laugh.

go..go! Yer killing me here....just killing me! However, me thinks me should go do some pondering as to how to implement my plan...(making maniacal handwashing gestures...)

[callmenerd]

My reading of the passage is that what we have to do is to "yield," or in other words, "get out of the way" and quit trying to do it ourselves.

--Consiglieri

This is absolutely sound. Anybody who has ever tried to fight an addiction would understand this. The first step is to admit that we are powerless and that we need the assistance of Our Savior. "Yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit"... meaning the Spirit is attempting to show us something.

When I read the word "yield" I pictured a roundabout with a traffic sign and thought this: The natural man will not seek direction. The natural man wants to find his destination on his own.

So this analogy popped into my head. The Holy Spirit is like a car circling itself in a roundabout waiting for lost travellers. Everyone who approaches this roundabout is lost and are given two choices: One is to obey the traffic sign and yield to the oncoming vehicle. Another is to get in the way and potentially get themself into an accident or at the very least miss a very valuable opportunity. Those who yield to the oncoming vehicle are consequently behind that vehicle and can now be lead to their proper destination. Those who don't continue on their journey as natural men, lost and without direction.

[Calm]

"Anatomy is destiny" Sigmund Freud

IOW, let's all give into the natural man, biology rules!

[mfbukowski]

This is absolutely sound. Anybody who has ever tried to fight an addiction would understand this. The first step is to admit that we are powerless and that we need the assistance of Our Savior. "Yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit"... meaning the Spirit is attempting to show us something.

When I read the word "yield" I pictured a roundabout with a traffic sign and thought this: The natural man will not seek direction. The natural man wants to find his destination on his own.

So this analogy popped into my head. The Holy Spirit is like a car circling itself in a roundabout waiting for lost travellers. Everyone who approaches this roundabout is lost and are given two choices: One is to obey the traffic sign and yield to the oncoming vehicle. Another is to get in the way and potentially get themself into an accident or at the very least miss a very valuable opportunity. Those who yield to the oncoming vehicle are consequently behind that vehicle and can now be lead to their proper destination. Those who don't continue on their journey as natural men, lost and without direction.

Nice analogy, but notice you still have to follow the leader. You know, turn the wheel, step on the gas, don't run out of gas, keep the car in tune, pay the tithing, I mean insurance etc.

Get the picture?

In a 12 step program if you don't take affirmative action and attend meetings, you are toast. And guess what? Those meetings call you to repentence when you mess up. Sound familiar?

[callmenerd]

Nice analogy, but notice you still have to follow the leader. You know, turn the wheel, step on the gas, don't run out of gas, keep the car in tune, pay the tithing, I mean insurance etc.

Get the picture?

In a 12 step program if you don't take affirmative action and attend meetings, you are toast. And guess what? Those meetings call you to repentence when you mess up. Sound familiar?

Hmmm... do I get the picture? I do know what following the leader means... I believe that was included in the analogy... We're not being towed to our destination. We're following the Holy Ghost's enticings.

And yes, I believe we're in harmony, yes just as you've alluded, 12 step meetings call people to repentance just as the leaders in Church meetings do. Maybe you're implying that this is a negative thing? I'm not sure.

If my car isn't inspected by someone who is authorized and knows what to look for, how can I expect to make my long journey to my desired destination? Sure, I know a thing or two about cars, but I have yet to traveled this journey. I don't know what it is I need to prepare for. I don't know what terrain lies ahead of me. Luckily, my guide, the one I am following, He does.

Are we in congruence here? Or have I jumped in the middle of something else?

[Zakuska]

Voting for President Bush?

No. She must have voted for Clinton.

[Zakuska]

I wish I knew, my wife and I are still trying to figure out how we just had our daughter. She is a week old now.

Can I recomend a book?

We had two girls and my Brother had 4 girls. My Dad was getting depressed because he had Six grand daughters and no Grandsons to pass on the family name. ( he had 7 granddaughters and 3 grandsons from my sisters) So My brother bought this book and did what it said and they got their Boy. So they gave the book to us and we did what it said and we got a boy too. Maybe you and your wife can figure out why you got a girl by reading this book.

http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/038548562X

Sorry this probably has nothing to do with the thread subject.

[mercyngrace]

No. She must have voted for Clinton.

Zakuska,

Your inbox must be full, I can't send you a PM. I wanted to ask a question about something you posted on another thread.

MnG

[mercyngrace]

deleted.

[wenglund]

Can I recomend a book?

We had two girls and my Brother had 4 girls. My Dad was getting depressed because he had Six grand daughters and no Grandsons to pass on the family name. ( he had 7 granddaughters and 3 grandsons from my sisters) So My brother bought this book and did what it said and they got their Boy. So they gave the book to us and we did what it said and we got a boy too. Maybe you and your wife can figure out why you got a girl by reading this book.

http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/038548562X

Sorry this probably has nothing to do with the thread subject.

With all this talk about having children, it sends this old single and childless guy on an intense guilt trip.

There, its now on topic.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Zakuska]

With all this talk about having children, it sends this old single and childless guy on an intense guilt trip.

There, its now on topic.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well come on wade. Im sure theres an Anne Nicole out there for ya somewhere?! Theres still time to sow some wild oates.

[Yamaha]

The constant guilt-tripping from the pulpit finally wore me out.

I was relieved when I discovered that the church isnt' true. I don't have to feel so guilty about everything all the time.

[callmenerd]

The constant guilt-tripping from the pulpit finally wore me out.

I was relieved when I discovered that the church isnt' true. I don't have to feel so guilty about everything all the time.

My friend, this makes me sad. In fact, this whole topic is depressing. Have you heard the saying, "Offense is only given, when taken"? If you believe that saying, this same rule applies to our topic today.

I am sorry that when you were a part of the Church you chose to feel guilty for the things you were doing. I do not believe you had to. So much negativity is associated with this word. When in truth, the feeling of guilt is the step before change, before growth. It sounds to me like you got stuck in the first step of change and never got to feel the wonderful feeling improvement, repentance, plays upon a soul.

Please understand what guilt is.

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn defines guilt as:

remorse caused by feeling responsible for some offense

You chose to feel responsible and rightly so. Taking responsibilty is a wonderful thing.

Any model that wants to improve upon itself must choose to find fault and take responsibility for the offense. This has to happen before that model can change and be a more efficient model. Yes, this is a repeating process. We repent more than once. The better we want to be the more we must repent. The more we must find guilt for something that is offending our progression.

This is the purpose of life. I'm glad you have found peace in choosing to no longer feel guilty. But, my friend, I am sad because that simply means you have chosen to stop progressing.

[handys003]

I mentioned to my wife (who hates going to Church) the other night that perhaps one reason Church could be so difficult is that the approved manuals always have purposes to the lessons, and the purposes more often than not are that we need to be doing something better than we are.

Sacrament meeting talks don't have a manual, but usually a topic is given to speakers by the bishopric and guess what? Those topics are usually on subjects where we need to improve.

So I suggested to her that going to Church and hearing for three hours every week how we aren't doing good enough could tend to be a little discouraging, and might contribute to folks not looking forward to the experience.

Fast forward to yesterday at Church where, in sacrament meeting, all three speakers were assigned to talk about reverence and how we weren't being reverent enough in the chapel, and how now, not only was the chapel off limits for socializing, but also the foyer just outside the chapel doors because, you know, they can hear you in the chapel.

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

I had to agree with her on that; it looked like I was right. I told her we all needed to line up for the little blue pills.

What do you think?

Is there too much Church Chat about how we aren't doing good enough? Is such a thing even possible within the framework of the Mormon Church?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Is this part of the reason non-Mormons think we are so works oriented?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I've been out a few days and came back to see this.

Consiglieri- How is it the speakers were assigned "Reverence" as the topic? Second Sunday is High Council sacrament. The topic for the month and to which the High Councilman is to speak on was:

Sunday, 10 January 2010

High Council Speaker (Click for Topic)

"Burying the Weapons of Our Rebellion - Letting Go of Your Favorite Sin"

Reference: "Repent..That I May Heal You" - Elder Neil L. Anderson, Ensign, Nov. 2009, p. 40.

This is what your ward was to hear. Actually this was a very good topic and also fit in with Gospel Principles lesson at EQ that Sunday.

[Yamaha]

My friend, this makes me sad. In fact, this whole topic is depressing. Have you heard the saying, "Offense is only given, when taken"? If you believe that saying, this same rule applies to our topic today.

I am sorry that when you were a part of the Church you chose to feel guilty for the things you were doing. I do not believe you had to. So much negativity is associated with this word. When in truth, the feeling of guilt is the step before change, before growth. It sounds to me like you got stuck in the first step of change and never got to feel the wonderful feeling improvement, repentance, plays upon a soul.

Please understand what guilt is.

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn defines guilt as:

You chose to feel responsible and rightly so. Taking responsibilty is a wonderful thing.

Any model that wants to improve upon itself must choose to find fault and take responsibility for the offense. This has to happen before that model can change and be a more efficient model. Yes, this is a repeating process. We repent more than once. The better we want to be the more we must repent. The more we must find guilt for something that is offending our progression.

This is the purpose of life. I'm glad you have found peace in choosing to no longer feel guilty. But, my friend, I am sad because that simply means you have chosen to stop progressing.

I didn't feel guilty for things I was doing - I've always lived the commandments. Even now, really. It was more feeling guilty for not being "perfect" enough. Guilt for things I wasn't doing well enough. I tried so hard -- but it wore me out.

But I have not given up on self-improvement. I read a lot, set goals for myself, try to become a better person. Just not within the confines of the church.

After the initial shock and destruction of my whole world view, I really am much happier.

[Wants2know]

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

I had to agree with her on that; it looked like I was right. I told her we all needed to line up for the little blue pills.

What do you think?

Is there too much Church Chat about how we aren't doing good enough? Is such a thing even possible within the framework of the Mormon Church?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Is this part of the reason non-Mormons think we are so works oriented?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

I had to agree with her on that; it looked like I was right. I told her we all needed to line up for the little blue pills.

What do you think?

Is there too much Church Chat about how we aren't doing good enough? Is such a thing even possible within the framework of the Mormon Church?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Is this part of the reason non-Mormons think we are so works oriented?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I've really enjoyed this post and the responses. Frankly - I'm not even LDS and I wholeheartedly feel that "we" as a people, as a humanity, "don't do enough" and "aren't good enough". There is just too much to be done on this planet for us to sit on our backsides and think about how badly others "make" us feel. We are responsible (for the most part, there are always exceptions) for how we feel. It's in large part a choice and a perspective (be that a positive one or a negative one) that we take. Maybe I just have a low tolerance for pity parties. Although, I've certainly had my share of them. I mean, we are all always striving to be "better", do "better" right? Well, maybe that's what we hope we are doing, personally - I'm not always "there" - I can very easily get in a habit of just going along with life and maintaining the status quo because that may be all I can handle at the time, or frankly, all I feel like doing at the time. I don't get the blame on the church though. You could just as well blame your mother, or your middle school teacher, or your x husband (I personally really enjoy using that last one.) I've sat in congregational church services where the minister gave a sermon on the evils of Roseanne Barr (just as an example to MnG's post about the talk on the evils of drinking Coke.) There are bizarre and extremes everywhere. It doesn't mean we have to take them all completely literally or to heart. As the old Alcoholics Anonymous saying goes, "take what you need and leave the rest". Maybe for that to work you have to first believe that we are each innately beautiful, wonderful, creative, giving, loving beings - and in order for all that to be potentialized, we need some help. And to accept that help, we need to have humility, self criticism and pretty broad shoulders at times.

And personally, if I were attending a church that truthfully made me feel so unworthy and that my efforts in life weren't measuring up - it would be time to find a new church.

[Hamba Tuhan]

So I suggested to her that going to Church and hearing for three hours every week how we aren't doing good enough could tend to be a little discouraging, and might contribute to folks not looking forward to the experience.

Fast forward to yesterday at Church where, in sacrament meeting, all three speakers were assigned to talk about reverence and how we weren't being reverent enough in the chapel, and how now, not only was the chapel off limits for socializing, but also the foyer just outside the chapel doors because, you know, they can hear you in the chapel.

At the conclusion of the meeting, my wife says to me, "Well, I guess that proves your theory." Me being me, I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, so she explained about how at Church we are always being told we aren't good enough.

Nonsense. You're good enough. In fact, you're so good that you have no need whatsoever for a Saviour or for repentance. You're fine just the way you are. Don't even think about changing a thing.

There, do you feel better?

Is this part of the reason Church can be so intolerable?

Funny, I've never found church intolerable. For some crazy reason, I look forward to it. It's the highlight of my week. I and my boys are often the first to arrive (so they can prepare the sacrament) and some of the last to leave. Many weeks, we then take the sacrament to sick people, visit less actives, etc. I guess we just can't get enough of it.

Wow, I must be a masochist....

[mfbukowski]

Are we in congruence here? Or have I jumped in the middle of something else?

I think we probably agree.

It's just that it appeared that Consig was taking the "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" route which implies that we don't have to do anything at all.

[mfbukowski]

I've been out a few days and came back to see this.

Consiglieri- How is it the speakers were assigned "Reverence" as the topic? Second Sunday is High Council sacrament. The topic for the month and to which the High Councilman is to speak on was:

Sunday, 10 January 2010

High Council Speaker (Click for Topic)

"Burying the Weapons of Our Rebellion - Letting Go of Your Favorite Sin"

Reference: "Repent..That I May Heal You" - Elder Neil L. Anderson, Ensign, Nov. 2009, p. 40.

This is what your ward was to hear. Actually this was a very good topic and also fit in with Gospel Principles lesson at EQ that Sunday.

Uh, just so you know, those agendas vary from Stake to Stake and are set by the Stake President.

Our High council speakers are on the third sunday, and the topics are assigned by the SP, and the talk you quoted is not even on our schedule that I know of.