Corrupt General Authorities and Their Huge Salaries

[Daniel Peterson]

If that is the post that you had in mind, I was referring to the Scratchian tone of your comments regarding Paul.

That is the post I had in mind, and I see nothing "Scratchian" in what little I said about Paul.

They struck me as mean and unnecessary.

I disagree.

On the other hand, I regard some of the things that he and a few others have said about certain of the Brethren specifically, and about all of the Brethren as a group, as defamatory and utterly untrue, and I feel an obligation to go on record as saying so.

I find it odd that there seems little objection in certain quarters to the completely evidence-free public slandering of good people, while responding to such slander supposedly reveals the one who protests it as mean, unchristian, childish, and a Mr. Jekyll.

Incidentally, Paul has asked, over on your board, whether there is anybody who has been inside President Packer's allegedly lavish estate.

I have been. I made that clear from the beginning. That was, in fact, the reason I felt that I, personally, needed to respond to this topic. I've been in his home, and there was absolutely nothing extraordinary about it. Apart from the posters here who write as if they live in a Brazilian favela or in a still-functioning Bantustan, I'm guessing that all or most live in residences that are roughly as "lavish" as President Packer's supposedly "ginormous estate."

Likewise, copy/pasting his comments and transferring them here.

I see nothing wrong with that at all. I sometimes also cite things for comment from books and articles. Quoting people is not an unethical act, unless the quotation comes from something private or confidential, or unless it was done in a disingenuous way (e.g., out of context). None of those potential objections applies here.

Again, Scratchian.

Not at all.

Are you becoming that which you previously criticized?

No.

I don't have the answer to that.

I do. See above.

Mote/Beam.

Moonbeam.

[Paul Osborne]

My point does matter...and my personal opinions about what would bother regarding the authority of the Church are really none of your business...nor are they the topic of this thread.

I see. I'll try to remember that.

Paul O

[Hamba Tuhan]

To be fair, I will believe the General Authorities are NOT corrupt and forgive any huge salaries if they will but tell me the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3.

I will also persuade my friends on the other board that the GA's are not corrupt if they will but do this one thing.

Maybe you would get further with this if you sweetened the deal by also offering six onties of silver?

[Daniel Peterson]

To his great credit, "Tom" has posted a relevant pair of very helpful excerpts over on the Sweetness and Light and Charity Board where my Malevolent Stalker holds forth and where, it would be childish and mean and unchristian of me to point out, a certain other poster (very vocally unhappy with the gluttonous greed and elite snootiness of the Brethren, and with their objections to certain . . . er, practices) has demanded that, in order to have any credibility with him, Elder Holland must sell everything that he and his wife own and move into a tent.

Lucille Tate's biography of BKP contains the following passage regarding the purchase of the house (it was purchased around 1964)::

To prevent his commuting daily to Salt Lake City, the Packers decided to leave Lindon and relocate nearer Church headquarters. They hoped for a place where they could keep animals and birds and the children could continue to have the daily chores. Elder Packer also wanted to insulate them from the publicity of his position as a General Authority. Away from the city he could come home with no more fanfare than from work in any business office. Sister Packer's Lindon experience had given her confidence, in his absence, to manage their nine children, a home, and a large piece of property.

President Moyle had kindly assigned someone to help locate such a place. When it was found, the Packers fell in love with it. Elder Harold B. Lee looked over the house and property one day and counseled, "By all means, you are to proceed."

There was a problem, however. When they added up every asset they possessed, including a projected loan on their insurance, they could not see any way to get into the house.

Still Brother Lee insisted, "Go ahead; I know it is right."

"I was in deep turmoil," Elder Packer has written, "because I had been counseled to do something I had never done before-to sign a contract without the resources to meet the payments."

Sensing the turmoil, Brother Lee sent him to President David O. McKay, who listened very carefully, then said: "You do this. It is the right thing." But he extended no resources to make it possible.

Brother Packer recalled, "When I reported to Brother Lee he said, 'That confirms what I have told you.'

"I was still not at peace, and then came the lesson.

"Elder Lee said, 'Boyd, do you know what is wrong with you-you always want to see the end from the beginning.'

"I replied quietly that I wanted to see at least a few steps ahead. He answered by quoting from the sixth verse of the twelfth chapter of Ether. 'Wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.'

It's heavily based on Packer's own account in "House of the Lord." Packer's account has a few details that Tate doesn't include::

"But there was no way we could proceed. I had just completed the course work on a doctor's degree and was writing the dissertation. With the support of my wife and our eight children, all of the resources we could gather over the years had been spent on education.

By borrowing on our insurance, gathering every resource, we could barely get into the house, without sufficient left to even make the first monthly payment."

Tom deserves praise for finding this and sharing it.

[Paul Osborne]

DCP,

I'm not impressed at all with sugar coated biography stories. Have you read Ezra Taft Bensen's? There isn't a single piece of dirt. You'd swear the man was perfect. It's too unreal for me to accept.

You want to impress me? Show me the biographies of blue collar working men becoming apostles and buying houses to dwell in as they preach to the saints in our day.

Paul O

[WalkerW]

...the WHITE COLLAR man, that is!

[Daniel Peterson]

I'm not impressed at all with sugar coated biography stories.

So what? The fact is that the story makes sense, and seems consistent with known facts. And I've been inside the house.

There continues to be no basis for slanderously charging President Packer with glutting himself on the labors of widows and orphans and the poor.

You want to impress me?

No.

[rodheadlee]

The notion of having me, a blue collar worker, run the Church is laughable. I am a really good carpenter, I can take a set of plans and make it reality, quickly and efficiently. But that's where my talents end. I had the chance to see the inner workings of the upper management in my field, up close and personal and I was offered a position but I turned it down. If I could control my language skills like my nail gun and skill saw, I may have considered it, if I could get a handle on the bureaucratic workings of the Building and Safety Department, I may have considered it, if I understood the legal speak of contracts I might have considered it. I'm content to build houses, hands on, with my crew, whom I lead by example, never asking them to do something I myself would not or could not do. What I would like to do is build houses for free, but it just isn't possible. I can't even raise the money to sponsor myself with Habitat for Humanity, the gift of gab, of raising money is not mine. I would love to ship my truck full of tools to American Samoa and help rebuild from the tsunami but I don't have the resources. I am thankful the Church has men that excel in finances, legal matters and have organizational skills so that We as a group can accomplish something. I thank God carpenters like me are not running the Church. We should never be jealous of another person's talents, I've seen lawyers, accountants and professors try to build a house, it wasn't pretty.

I don't mean to derail the thread but this sorta reminds me of why polygamy is so far fetched for me, I can barely take care of the one wife I have, how in the world would I take care of 2 or 3 wives, unless they enjoy living in a 38 foot boat, driving a 20 year old truck and calling home where ever we lay our heads.

[Jeff K.]

One of our branch presidents was a coal miner. I know another bishop who was head of golf course maintenance. Very blue collar in my book.

I think talents are possible in all levels and professions. Exactly what was Joseph Smith's ability when he received his first vision at 14 to open this dispensation. He did find organizers around him, and there is nothing to say other leaders won't do the same, regardless of their profession. The Lord chooses whom he will, even you.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

I just spilled a whole shot glass of Jack Daniels on my keyboard!

[...]

If you're going to be an apostate, you could at least be one with good taste...

[lingo]

I evidently passed it about thirty minutes ago. I would like to have seen it. I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title. I'm not privy to the insider information that you've evidently seen.

.

Is this a declaration from Mr. Peterson for the LDS church to open their financials? I agree with you (not often but this time), I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title, and all of the financials. Mr. Monson, tear down this wall!

[Daniel Peterson]

I agree completely with rodheadlee.

It's also striking that there are no real philosophers or biblical scholars or English professors running the Church, either. I can't even keep my office orderly, let alone run an organization with millions of members in scores of countries, speaking dozens of languages, using innumerable currencies, needing constant staffing, and etc. I wouldn't do it well, and I would go mad (as well as driving others mad) in the process. I would hate it.

I don't understand the objection on this score. God calls those to serve who have the skills to do so in the positions where he wants them to serve. He magnifies them in the process, I'm convinced, but I think, for instance, that Brigham Young was the man to lead the westward migration, not Joseph Smith. And so forth.

[Jeff K.]

If you're going to be an apostate, you could at least be one with good taste...

Not a bad golf course in Lynchburg though.

[Calm]

Is this a declaration from Mr. Peterson for the LDS church to open their financials? I agree with you (not often but this time), I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title, and all of the financials. Mr. Monson, tear down this wall!

A simple listing as was given for Bro. Packer's house would suffice.

I can only find one myself. I checked for SL and UV counties.

[mfbukowski]

I'll try not to end up like Korihor did.

You do know, however, that all of us have strong opinions! I'm in the deep end and you're in the shallow end.

I just spilled a whole shot glass of Jack Daniels on my keyboard! It's your fault!

DARN!!

Paul O

An interesting post. It speaks volumes.

[Paul Osborne]

An interesting post. It speaks volumes.

It might interest you to know that I have new keyboard today. The old one shorted out last night and all I could do was turn the computer off.

Have a happy Thanksgiving, Popeye.

Paul O

[Pahoran]

I tend to think that the perks of being a modern day member of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is extremely attractive to anyone who desires money, fame, and security. Forget big government and corporations! Being at the top of the church is like going to the moon!

And you know this -- how, exactly? Having never actually been in either place.

Anyone in favor of making me the new President of the Church? Just say, "Yes".

And the reasons why you should be are what? Your rare moments of sobriety, your courage that is ever in need of liquid reinforcement, or the two strings to that fiddle of yours?

Just as a reminder, you will gain a world of credibility with me, Pahoran, if you will just tell me the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3. Can you do that?

That being the other string.

I hate to chase this derail any further, but I will say just this: Chris Smith and Metcalfe must have been praying devoutly (to their own reflections) that you would shut up before anyone got around to pointing out the real issue you are highlighting. There they are, beavering away to "prove" that Joseph Smith "really" thought he could derive entire paragraphs of material from single characters -- thus squeezing some polemical utility out of the KEP's -- and you keep shouting, in your semi-sober state, about Joseph identifying sets of from six to a dozen characters as containing the name of an individual!

When, according to the anti-Mormon theory du jour, they ought to contain several pages of material.

What an own goal you keep scoring!

Regards,

Pahoran

[Duncan]

I wonder if society today is less blue collar then it was 50 years ago. I think it is certaintly less agricultural then it was and so perhaps we see less blue collar leaders then white collar leaders. I could be wrong though!

[Jeff K.]

In the past 30+ years our society has done its best to destroy blue collar training in schools with the idea that all students will be college students. It has resulted in blue collar training moving from high school to colleges (ITT and others).

[Duncan]

In the past 30+ years our society has done its best to destroy blue collar training in schools with the idea that all students will be college students. It has resulted in blue collar training moving from high school to colleges (ITT and others).

So its more we shouldn't be terribly surprised if most of the workforce is white collar and hence the brethren are coming from there

[Daniel Peterson]

Is this a declaration from Mr. Peterson for the LDS church to open their financials?

No. I doubt that this has anything whatever to do with Church "financials."

I agree with you (not often but this time),

There's still hope for you, though. You're not dead yet. So far as I know.

I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title, and all of the financials.

Why don't you post all of your financial documents and data, and your property title? That would enhance the credibility of your demand that Elder Holland release his. (Marginally, at least.)

Mr. Monson, tear down this wall!

Sheesh. It's not enough that you want to pry into Elder Holland's personal finances? Now you want to destroy his home?

[Zakuska]

It might interest you to know that I have new keyboard today. The old one shorted out last night and all I could do was turn the computer off.

Have a happy Thanksgiving, Popeye.

Paul O

This explains some of the posting habits on the other end.

[ebeddoulos]

My father followed construction all over the western United States. I am retired military. I have lived from sea to shining sea and half way around the world. I have knows many bishops. The Bishop in Halfway, OR was a farmer as was the one in Grandview, ID. The Bishop in Page, AZ was dentist and one of his councillors was a milkman who later became the Bishop. We had two Bishops during my stay in Kingman, AZ; one owned the Texaco and the other drove a school bus. One of their councilors was a high school German teacher. In Duchesne, UT the Bishop owned an auto parts store. In San Antonio, the two bishops were both Air Force Military Training Instructors (aka Drill Sergeants). Other occupations my bishops have held are psychiatrist, military officers, country radio station general manager, small business owner, hospital administrator, personel director, barber and several had occupations which I do not recall.

You look into the background of today's General Authorities and you will find farmers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, real estate agents, accountants, marketing managers, retail and small business managers and sales professionals. You will find those whose families have been in the church from the beginning and those who are converts. You will find that most of them served missions but a few did not. You will find those with military experience and those without. It pretty much runs the gamut and that does not include any of the Seventies other than the Presidents. Those who think that the church leadership consists of white collar types living in mansions milking the tithing coffers needs to pull their crainiums out of the dark for a breath of air. Fresh air is quite healthy, you know.

[Duncan]

Excluding our ward clerk none of the current bishopric ever served a mission.

[Paul Osborne]

Is this a declaration from Mr. Peterson for the LDS church to open their financials? I agree with you (not often but this time), I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title, and all of the financials. Mr. Monson, tear down this wall!

Transparency and open books are not going to happen. Total benefits/compensation enjoyed by top ministers of the church are a matter of private concern. You'll simply have to wait for one of the top officials of the church to defect and start a scandal. There is no way of knowing if that will happen in our lifetime but it's possible.

We can all agree that the group known as General Authorities is a tight-knit group of elite men who have talents in many areas of life within the white collar industries. They will continue to control the church so long as the vast majority of the members of the church believe that white collar men are needed to run the church in the manner it is being run. The typical member believes that the calling of a GA is God inspired. I don't believe they are. I believe men are calling men and God has little to do with it but is actually quite displeased with how things have turned out.

Paul O