Corrupt General Authorities and Their Huge Salaries

[jkfrost]

Over on the oddly-named "Recovery" board, which is far more bizarre, even, than my Malevolent Stalker's lair, some of the inmates are pooling their ignorance and hostility in a discussion of the "ginormous salaries and spend[ing?] accounts" that "guarantee and ensure" that General Authorities don't leave the Church like these self-styled heroic geniuses have: "If they were paid less, you'd probably see them leaving more often."

A principal exhibit in support of their case is "the reality behind the Boyd K. Packer estate." As one poster emits, "Seminary teachers/principals aren't paid jack, and this guy spent his whole 'career' in CES. Yet look at his estate. It's monstrous. I've seen it. You can't tell me he isn't paid for his apostleship."

I don't know what this particular Einstein may have seen, but I've been in President Packer's home, which sits at the end of a cul-de-sac in a reasonably average suburban neighborhood southward in the Salt Lake Valley. The home is nice enough, but not new, and anything but lavish. Relatively modest, I would say. Many of the homes in my own neighborhood are much larger.

I wonder where President Packer's "monstrous estate" might be? I lean toward the Planet Zarkon. I think the "Recovery" poster must have seen it during one of his abductions by aliens.

That explains the nice Grill Bro M has.

I can see him now down by his Crib and pool - taking luxury to the max

as he travels in his private jet from place to place, the gold and diamonds on his hands

and neck almost blind me.... NOT - instead he lives in an apartment downtown

that gets passed on to the next humble servant of God who spend most all of his time

on the road serving others.

[Stargazer]

Nothing personal Stargazer, but Cookie Monster says Amarillo? Who stops there overnight except relatives? When I drove often through the Panhandle, like others, it was only a stop for gas and maybe that 72 oz steak. Nothing to see except Palo Duro Canyon farther south but basically its like driving through flat earth hell! I can see why his profit is low.

I am disappointed in your lack of knowledge, Cookie.

Amarillo may seem to the casual traveler passing through on the way to somewhere else as an unimportant speck in the middle of the Texas panhandle, but Amarillo is much more important than you imagine. First of all, it is a university town with the West Texas A&M headquartered in nearby Canyon (which is where my bro's B&B was physically located). Second of all, the greater Amarillo area has a population in excess of 250,000. Some very important industries exist in Amarillo, including Pantex, the only US nuclear weapons assembly plant, as a major employer.

The B&B was not doing particularly well when my brother and his wife took it over, but they gradually remodeled the place into a very attractive property, and the website that my brother built for the place was the source of about 60% of their business, perhaps more. My brother told me that they were close to 100% occupancy, year round, with a lot of their business being repeaters from out of town, state and country, with the largest slice having come to the area on business related to West Texas A&M.

It is owned by others now, but when you look at the rooms as presented on the website, they look pretty much exactly the same as when my bro fixed them up.

Hudspeth House in Canyon, Texas.

And I say again, at their peak their profit was less than my gross income as a computer programmer. It may be that my take home was closer to their profit.

[Stargazer]

BIZ: (musing again) Hmmm. . . .why couldn't temple ordinances be performed in a smaller, more humble venue than a big and spacious costly building? Why not?

Why the need for the giant conference center? Just rent a stadium from time to time, or broadcast from a rented studio? Why the need for the giant gaudy building? Why?

These kind of remarks put me in the mind of the complaints made by Judas Iscariot when Lazarus's sister came with the alabaster box and anointed Jesus's feet with the valuable spikenard ointment that it contained. Judas, who was of course, more concerned with appearance than with substance, and betrayed the Savior for thirty pieces of silver, complained that the alabaster box and the spikenard should have been sold and given to the poor.

[handys003]

I am disappointed in your lack of knowledge, Cookie.

Amarillo may seem to the casual traveler passing through on the way to somewhere else as an unimportant speck in the middle of the Texas panhandle, but Amarillo is much more important than you imagine. First of all, it is a university town with the West Texas A&M headquartered in nearby Canyon (which is where my bro's B&B was physically located). Second of all, the greater Amarillo area has a population in excess of 250,000. Some very important industries exist in Amarillo, including Pantex, the only US nuclear weapons assembly plant, as a major employer.

The B&B was not doing particularly well when my brother and his wife took it over, but they gradually remodeled the place into a very attractive property, and the website that my brother built for the place was the source of about 60% of their business, perhaps more. My brother told me that they were close to 100% occupancy, year round, with a lot of their business being repeaters from out of town, state and country, with the largest slice having come to the area on business related to West Texas A&M.

It is owned by others now, but when you look at the rooms as presented on the website, they look pretty much exactly the same as when my bro fixed them up.

Hudspeth House in Canyon, Texas.

And I say again, at their peak their profit was less than my gross income as a computer programmer. It may be that my take home was closer to their profit.

Sorry bruddah, I'm just spoiled in paradise. My brother's in-laws lived in Amarillo and I know the population was sizable. I just can't get over the flatness from Dallas until you turn north to Pagosa Sprinds Colorado via Chama N.M. LOL, I'd drop that nuke plant on the tour guide bragging right though.

[lingo]

I'm just wondering, no disrespect at all to the "humble" lumpen blue collar working man (and I've been there), how many in the blue collar do you think, just off the top of your head, have the skill sets, experience, education, or temperament, to lead a global church with some 14 million members that includes expertise in economic, business, and organizational matters?

In other words, this isn't, in many ways, the 1st century Church.

I'm confused. When someone claims that Joseph Smith wrote the BOM, the LDS community jumps in and claims his lack of education shows that he in no way could have written it. God was the one who dictated yet with this last statement, it seems that God would have no part in the running of the church today, only well educated men (white collar) who would have the "skill set, experience, education, or temperament, to lead a global church..." I actually believe that with God and Jesus Christ as the head of the church, anything is possible, and if he chose a blue collar working man, then so be it. I'm suprised (maybe not) that someone did not mention that Christ is the one who actually is the head of the church, or did everyone forget?

If you deny that an uneducated man could possibly run the church today, then you must deny that Christ is the head and directs through revelation.

[Anijen]

I'm just wondering, no disrespect at all to the "humble" lumpen blue collar working man (and I've been there), how many in the blue collar do you think, just off the top of your head, have the skill sets, experience, education, or temperament, to lead a global church with some 14 million members that includes expertise in economic, business, and organizational matters?

In other words, this isn't, in many ways, the 1st century Church.

Doesn't matter its not the man that leads the church its the Lord.

[Paul Osborne]

DCP,

I would ask that you not cut and paste my posts from the other board simply to make sport of it. I think MAD board guidlines should be maintained; don't you? However, I realize that high profile posters such as yourself are allowed extra priviledges so I'm not making any demands.

Have a nice day.

Paul O

[ttribe]

DCP,

I would ask that you not cut and paste my posts from the other board simply to make sport of it. I think MAD board guidlines should be maintained; don't you? However, I realize that high profile posters such as yourself are allowed extra priviledges so I'm not making any demands.

Have a nice day.

Paul O

Does this request go both ways? Near as I can tell, cutting and pasting posts from THIS board over to MDB for sport is something of a regular pass time.

[Daniel Peterson]

I would ask that you not cut and paste my posts from the other board simply to make sport of it. I think MAD board guidlines should be maintained; don't you? However, I realize that high profile posters such as yourself are allowed extra priviledges so I'm not making any demands.

I simply posted what you wrote, with minimal comment. I didn't even say where it was posted, and I didn't identify you.

Are your comments absurd? Yes, I think so. That's not my fault, though.

P.S. I notice that, over on the Sweetness and Light and Charity Board, where my Malevolent Stalker holds forth and where these recent comments about Elder Packer and the Brethren were posted, it has been determined that this thread is mean-spirited (presumably toward those humble and earnest souls who accuse the Brethren of glutting themselves on the labors of the poor, the widows, and the orphaned), that it reveals my disturbingly unchristian character, and that it illustrates my Jekyll-and-Hyde personality (in real life, relatively decent, more or less, but, on line, horrifyingly vicious).

It's a mad, mad, mad world.

.

[ERayR]

I'm just wondering, no disrespect at all to the "humble" lumpen blue collar working man (and I've been there), how many in the blue collar do you think, just off the top of your head, have the skill sets, experience, education, or temperament, to lead a global church with some 14 million members that includes expertise in economic, business, and organizational matters?

In other words, this isn't, in many ways, the 1st century Church.

I mean no disrespect to anyone. I fully support those who are called to lead and be administrators to and in the church. I understand and share your respect for education. However, in my professional capacity I am aquainted with some very bright men and women who run farms (large and small) and businesses. Many of them would do quite well in administrative positions in the church or anywhere else.

[staccato]

I'm confused. When someone claims that Joseph Smith wrote the BOM, the LDS community jumps in and claims his lack of education shows that he in no way could have written it. God was the one who dictated yet with this last statement, it seems that God would have no part in the running of the church today, only well educated men (white collar) who would have the "skill set, experience, education, or temperament, to lead a global church..." I actually believe that with God and Jesus Christ as the head of the church, anything is possible, and if he chose a blue collar working man, then so be it. I'm suprised (maybe not) that someone did not mention that Christ is the one who actually is the head of the church, or did everyone forget?

If you deny that an uneducated man could possibly run the church today, then you must deny that Christ is the head and directs through revelation.

There is really no need to be confused. The LDS church is more of a business than a religion.

I've not read all of the previous post, but I do have a couple of comments.

1 - I do not think any of the current leaders aspired to their positions to make money.

2 - The church amply provides for them. They are in want for nothing.

3- I don't know of any monstrous estates. I do know that many of the GA's have second homes that have been provided them by the church. I just passed Holland's second home the other day when I was up in Midway. So when we are calculating perks for the church we probably ought to mention these little vacation homes where the church pays for literally everything, including taxes and insurance. I also do know that there is some measure of truth to Osborne's comments about the saints falling all over themselves to take in a visiting GA. If I had to accuse the leaders of anything less saintly, it would be their desire for fame and recognition. Those that I know personally almost have a sense of entitlement when it comes to that. They're important, dagnabit, and they expect to be treated as such. They don't want a big house. They just want to be looked up to.

BIZ: (musing again) Hmmm. . . .why couldn't temple ordinances be performed in a smaller, more humble venue than a big and spacious costly building? Why not?

Why the need for the giant conference center? Just rent a stadium from time to time, or broadcast from a rented studio? Why the need for the giant gaudy building? Why?

These kind of remarks put me in the mind of the complaints made by Judas Iscariot when Lazarus's sister came with the alabaster box and anointed Jesus's feet with the valuable spikenard ointment that it contained. Judas, who was of course, more concerned with appearance than with substance, and betrayed the Savior for thirty pieces of silver, complained that the alabaster box and the spikenard should have been sold and given to the poor.

On principle, it should outrage anyone that billions of dollars are used for a building when there are so many in this world dying of starvation. If Jesus is more interested in his feet than my child's empty stomach, he is not worthy of my worship. It is indeed a matter of priority.

[Jeff K.]

Point for point.

1 - I do not think any of the current leaders aspired to their positions to make money.

Members of the church are supposed to aspire to be worthy of any position. But money is definately not why one becomes a bishop.

2 - The church amply provides for them. They are in want for nothing.

Generally those who come from private practice take a huge hit to revenue when they are called to such positions of leaders. They want for nothing, but that is merely a throw away statement. What if one wants very little but does a great deal? Is that equally nefarious? Well, to those who hate it is. Frankly from what I have seen some apostles live even more simply than I do. And yet my bishop has authority over me. Am I a member because of the money? How utterly ridiculous. Uchdorf was VP of operations for Lufthansa, a very high paying executive position. He gave that up to be a seventy. How do you reconcile your position in that regard?

3- I don't know of any monstrous estates. I do know that many of the GA's have second homes that have been provided them by the church. I just passed Holland's second home the other day when I was up in Midway. So when we are calculating perks for the church we probably ought to mention these little vacation homes where the church pays for literally everything, including taxes and insurance. I also do know that there is some measure of truth to Osborne's comments about the saints falling all over themselves to take in a visiting GA. If I had to accuse the leaders of anything less saintly, it would be their desire for fame and recognition. Those that I know personally almost have a sense of entitlement when it comes to that. They're important, dagnabit, and they expect to be treated as such. They don't want a big house. They just want to be looked up to.

And you know all the second homes are provided how? Packer owned his home before ever reaching such a position and he continues to live in it. Your speculation as to what the church pays for is somewhat, shall we say, jaded and without a sure foundation.

As to fame and recognition, I dare say Uchdorf would have done better in the German Parliament than in the quorum of the Seventy or even as an apostle. He could very easily have risen higher in the ranks of Lufthansa or used his connections in order to run a good sized portion of Airbus..... And received greater acclaim than belonging to a much smaller pond or religious group which is openly disdained and besieged by people who hold a prejudice against it, for no other reason than they dislike Mormons.

[Jeff K.]

These kind of remarks put me in the mind of the complaints made by Judas Iscariot when Lazarus's sister came with the alabaster box and anointed Jesus's feet with the valuable spikenard ointment that it contained. Judas, who was of course, more concerned with appearance than with substance, and betrayed the Savior for thirty pieces of silver, complained that the alabaster box and the spikenard should have been sold and given to the poor.

On principle, it should outrage anyone that billions of dollars are used for a building when there are so many in this world dying of starvation. If Jesus is more interested in his feet than my child's empty stomach, he is not worthy of my worship. It is indeed a matter of priority.

Thank you for reaffirming my point. Or do you believe there were no hungry in Jerusalem among the poor in Christs time? If they were, and Jesus was truly the son of God taking out the atonement, with a much bigger picture than is possible by you..... Then of course you become nothing more than a bitter little accountant.

How much money do you have? Are you outraged at yourself everyday? Doubtful. Does the word hypocrisy float over your head when you look in the mirror?

[mfbukowski]

If Jesus is more interested in his feet than my child's empty stomach, he is not worthy of my worship. It is indeed a matter of priority.

I'm sorry your child is going without food.

We have made provisions for those in need. You should talk with your bishop and he will be glad to help.

In our church we are able to take care of the poor as well as do what is necessary to honor the Lord. That's because we don't have a paid clergy. I thought you would know that by now. Even if you are officially a non-member at the moment, I am sure he will be glad to help.

[staccato]

Point for point.

Members of the church are supposed to aspire to be worthy of any position. But money is definately not why one becomes a bishop.

I think I said that.

Generally those who come from private practice take a huge hit to revenue when they are called to such positions of leaders. They want for nothing, but that is merely a throw away statement. What if one wants very little but does a great deal? Is that equally nefarious? Well, to those who hate it is. Frankly from what I have seen some apostles live even more simply than I do. And yet my bishop has authority over me. Am I a member because of the money? How utterly ridiculous. Uchdorf was VP of operations for Lufthansa, a very high paying executive position. He gave that up to be a seventy. How do you reconcile your position in that regard?

I think I said this too.

And you know all the second homes are provided how? Packer owned his home before ever reaching such a position and he continues to live in it. Your speculation as to what the church pays for is somewhat, shall we say, jaded and without a sure foundation.

Really? You have no idea what you are talking about.

As to fame and recognition, I dare say Uchdorf would have done better in the German Parliament than in the quorum of the Seventy or even as an apostle. He could very easily have risen higher in the ranks of Lufthansa or used his connections in order to run a good sized portion of Airbus..... And received greater acclaim than belonging to a much smaller pond or religious group which is openly disdained and besieged by people who hold a prejudice against it, for no other reason than they dislike Mormons.

I don't know Uchdorf personally. I would imagine his high profile nature has garnered him attention his entire adult life. I would imagine that, outside of mormonism, he has been disdained by some. It is the nature of life. If you hold a prominent position, there will be those who will want to challenge you. You learn how to deal with that as you rise to positions of authority. Also, as is human nature, as you rise into positions of authority you grow to expect that those around you defer to you for no other reason than you are you. It is an unfortunate arrogance that comes along for the ride.

[ttribe]

Really? You have no idea what you are talking about.

How do you know that the Church purchased any second homes for any GA's?

[staccato]

How do you know that the Church purchased any second homes for any GA's?

Well, in the case of Holland's home, I not only know the contractors who built the home (so am familiar with the cost and the bidding process for it), but I also know Holland and visited with him as he was out working in the yard last time I went by. I worked with him when he was president of BYU.

[ttribe]

Well, in the case of Holland's home, I not only know the contractors who built the home (so am familiar with the cost and the bidding process for it), but I also know Holland and visited with him as he was out working in the yard last time I went by. I worked with him when he was president of BYU.

That doesn't answer the question - how do you know the CHURCH bought the second home?

[Jeff K.]

Quote

And you know all the second homes are provided how? Packer owned his home before ever reaching such a position and he continues to live in it. Your speculation as to what the church pays for is somewhat, shall we say, jaded and without a sure foundation.

Really? You have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, no substance there, aside from wild opinion. Are you stating your opinion isn't jaded? We know from your response, that it is certainly without foundation.

[Jeff K.]

Well, in the case of Holland's home, I not only know the contractors who built the home (so am familiar with the cost and the bidding process for it), but I also know Holland and visited with him as he was out working in the yard last time I went by. I worked with him when he was president of BYU.

So you saw the second house while he was university president? You do know that part of the compensation to university presidents and chancellors are often homes right? Including second homes? They offer this as a way to keep assets within the university while paying out less dollars. It is usually listed as part of the compensation package along with cars for the family.

From the many windows of her stone mansion, MIT president Susan Hockfield enjoys a commanding view of sailboats gliding along the Charles River. When Northeastern president Joseph Aoun steps outside his five-story brick town house, he finds himself just across the street from Boston Common.

Now the opulence risks standing out amid frozen faculty salaries, widespread layoffs, and slashed programs. While the houses often serve an important ceremonial role and it is questionable how much money could be saved by their elimination, the very mention of them has elicited low-level grumbling on campuses and anxiety among university officials over the Globe

[Daniel Peterson]

The LDS church is more of a business than a religion.

That assertion is both false and absurd.

I do know that many of the GA's have second homes that have been provided them by the church.

I doubt that very, very much. Except, of course, in cases where General Authorities are living abroad on overseas assignments. My wife and I visited, some years back, with a very good friend when he was serving in an area presidency in Frankfurt, Germany. The home that he and his wife and children shared was roughly the size of a smallish U.S. condo. It belonged to the Church, was near to the area offices, the other members of the area presidency lived on the same street, and former members of the area presidency had occupied the home previously. They drove a VW van. Whether they paid any rent for any of these lavish perks, I don't know. And I don't much care. My friend was, at the time, responsible for pretty much the entire former Soviet Union (eight or nine time zones, as I recall), and was off traveling to provincial towns and major cities across that region for roughly two weeks out of every four, with the rest of his time devoted to the usual ecclesiastical administrative duties at his Frankfurt office. I don't think he was leading a very luxurious life.

I just passed Holland's second home the other day when I was up in Midway.

I evidently passed it about thirty minutes ago. I would like to have seen it. I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title. I'm not privy to the insider information that you've evidently seen.

If I had to accuse the leaders of anything less saintly, it would be their desire for fame and recognition. Those that I know personally almost have a sense of entitlement when it comes to that. They're important, dagnabit, and they expect to be treated as such. They don't want a big house. They just want to be looked up to.

Those that I know don't seem to have that attitude at all. But, once again, I'm obliged to bow to the person who knows more of them than I do, and knows them better than I do.

On principle, it should outrage anyone that billions of dollars are used for a building when there are so many in this world dying of starvation.

I assume that you're referring to the developments in downtown Salt Lake City. I agree. It seems to me that if we would stop providing construction and other jobs for people, and if money were never invested but were simply given away, the world would be far better off than it is. Not a penny for investment or commerce, say I! No new buildings! No business! No buying or selling!

I don't know Uch[t]dorf personally.

I do.

I would imagine his high profile nature has garnered him attention his entire adult life. I would imagine that, outside of mormonism, he has been disdained by some. It is the nature of life. If you hold a prominent position, there will be those who will want to challenge you. You learn how to deal with that as you rise to positions of authority. Also, as is human nature, as you rise into positions of authority you grow to expect that those around you defer to you for no other reason than you are you. It is an unfortunate arrogance that comes along for the ride.

But, as you say, you don't know President Uchtdorf personally.

.

[Pahoran]

There is really no need to be confused. The LDS church is more of a business than a religion.

Y'know Staccato, if ever you wanted to prove that you simply have no credibility on any subject at all, blurting out that obvious and idiotic falsehood seems to be the most infallible way to do it.

Thank you for providing me with a new signature line.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Paul Osborne]

Does this request go both ways? Near as I can tell, cutting and pasting posts from THIS board over to MDB for sport is something of a regular pass time

It depends who you are talking to. I for one would never cut and paste whole posts from this board and take them over to the other board. I know that would upset the owners of this board and get me into trouble.

What other members of the other board do is their business. The other board has a different set of rules and guidelines than this one does. Surely you know that. But I respect this board's rules and will not cut and paste posts from this board and put them over there for public display. I won't do that! I never will!

Paul O

[ttribe]

It depends who you are talking to. I for one would never cut and paste whole posts from this board and take them over to the other board. I know that would upset the owners of this board and get me into trouble.

What other members of the other board do is their business. The other board has a different set of rules and guidelines than this one does. Surely you know that. But I respect this board's rules and will not cut and paste posts from this board and put them over there for public display. I won't do that! I never will!

Paul O

Fair enough.

[Jersey Girl]

I simply posted what you wrote, with minimal comment. I didn't even say where it was posted, and I didn't identify you.

Are your comments absurd? Yes, I think so. That's not my fault, though.

P.S. I notice that, over on the Sweetness and Light and Charity Board, where my Malevolent Stalker holds forth and where these recent comments about Elder Packer and the Brethren were posted, it has been determined that this thread is mean-spirited (presumably toward those humble and earnest souls who accuse the Brethren of glutting themselves on the labors of the poor, the widows, and the orphaned), that it reveals my disturbingly unchristian character, and that it illustrates my Jekyll-and-Hyde personality (in real life, relatively decent, more or less, but, on line, horrifyingly vicious).

It's a mad, mad, mad world.

.

Hello Daniel,

I commented that there was a certain level of "mean-ness" in this thread based on the time I spent reading it. If you would like an accurate explanation of that comment, instead of what you presume, I'd be glad to clarify.

JG