Corrupt General Authorities and Their Huge Salaries

[Jeff K.]

BIZ: (musing again) Hmmm. . . .why couldn't temple ordinances be performed in a smaller, more humble venue than a big and spacious costly building? Why not?

Why indeed did the Isreaelites put in their most precious items in a temple built for God? Why not put that selfsame temple in a mud hut?

We can only surmise that perhaps the cult found in Exodus led by Moses is the same cult led by another prophet today.

Why the need for the giant conference center? Just rent a stadium from time to time, or broadcast from a rented studio? Why the need for the giant gaudy building? Why?

Judas once reflected such an attitude.

1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2 There they made him a supper; and aMartha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon

[Zakuska]

Do you pay tithing? I do. I'm delighted at the Conference Center. It's a beautiful facility. I love attending the Christmas concerts there, and have enjoyed many other activities there, as well. I'm glad that my money helped to build it.

If you don't pay tithing, why do you care?

Is it not rented out for classical concerts and such that they want to televise to the whole country?

Sounds to me like it provides a return on the money invested, a very smart business move if you ask me.

[Paul Osborne]

Well, Paul? When are you going to sell everything you own and live in a tent?

When you do it, I'll want serious evidence.

I'll take your generous advice you gave earlier, "It would indeed be best if you stayed out of this thread for that reason".

I am curious though, would you be willing to live in a tent too, with me? That would be all the evidence you'd ever need.

Paul O

[Tchild2]

Over on the oddly-named "Recovery" board, which is far more bizarre, even, than my Malevolent Stalker's lair, some of the inmates are pooling their ignorance and hostility in a discussion of the "ginormous salaries and spend[ing?] accounts" that "guarantee and ensure" that General Authorities don't leave the Church like these self-styled heroic geniuses have: "If they were paid less, you'd probably see them leaving more often."

A claim easily dismissed if the church offered financial disclosure including compensation (stipends) of its leadership. Since the church does indeed receive annual tithes in the billions, does own businesses (or did in the past), has significant land holdings and financial assets capable of building multi-billion dollar property investments...then, the speculative imaginations of those not in the know, are apt to run wild.

I know it is not true, but only because I grew up in the culture and actually know a couple of General athorities and their families personally to know that while there are financial benefits, they pale compared to other corporate equivalents. However, those outside of the inner circle, and perhaps all too familiar with the graft and extravagance of other religious leaders, may not understand the same way.

A principal exhibit in support of their case is "the reality behind the Boyd K. Packer estate." As one poster emits, "Seminary teachers/principals aren't paid jack, and this guy spent his whole 'career' in CES. Yet look at his estate. It's monstrous. I've seen it. You can't tell me he isn't paid for his apostleship."

I don't know what this particular Einstein may have seen, but I've been in President Packer's home, which sits at the end of a cul-de-sac in a reasonably average suburban neighborhood southward in the Salt Lake Valley. The home is nice enough, but not new, and anything but lavish. Relatively modest, I would say. Many of the homes in my own neighborhood are much larger.

I wonder where President Packer's "monstrous estate" might be? I lean toward the Planet Zarkon. I think the "Recovery" poster must have seen it during one of his abductions by aliens.

When I was first married and trying to make it in the world, my wife and I lived at the home of the late Ted tuttle whose living spouse is a relative of ours, and who happened to live nearly next door to Boyd K. Packer in the exclusive Willowcreek area of Salt lake City. At the time and at my income level, the home-estate of BKP was a palatial estate. Now that I make serious dough, it has been relegated in my subjective viewpoint to a merely above average abode / estate in my relative scale of wealth.

Wealth probably depends on the relative economic situation of the person doing the judging. For some, Boyd K Packer is a very wealthy man. To others, he is a mid-level bureaucrat with a very modest corporate equivalent salary-compensation base, and not a very enviable one at that.

[Droopy]

Ressentiment, from what I've seen of you on line over the years, is one of your besetting passions. I believe it's a major factor in bringing you to where you currently are.

It would indeed be best if you stayed out of this thread for that reason. Anyway, this thread -- I speak with some authority on the subject -- was not launched in order to provide a venue for class warfare or proletarian outrage. It was launched to deny the charge that the Brethren glut themselves on the labor of the people.

Unfortunately this same greenish passion besets some others here as well. Indeed, it has become, if most threads on the subject over at least the last several years are any indication, impossible to discuss subjects like Zion, the United Order, or Church policy on certain social/economic issues without having to hack through the tangled underbrush of class envy.

As all here know, its one of my pet peeves.

[Daniel Peterson]

I am curious though, would you be willing to live in a tent too, with me?

No, I wouldn't.

If there's ever any real reason for me to live in a tent, though, I'll do it. I've spent plenty of time in tents.

But I won't do it pointlessly. Unless I'm camping. But even that has a point.

That would be all the evidence you'd ever need.

True. But there will be other ways in which you can prove that you've done it, when you have. I expect you to do it, and I expect you to prove that you've done it. Or to stop demanding that Elder Holland and the other Brethren do it.

When you're demanding that they join you in tent living, most will regard you as a crank. Until you move into your permanent tent, though, you'll also come across as . . . well, it begins with an "h" and has three syllables.

.

[Paul Osborne]

Or to stop demanding that Elder Holland and the other Brethren do it.

I'll try not to make those "DEMANDS" again. Who am I to demand anyone to do anything? I don't know what I was thinking when I thought that.

Paul O

[Rich Hansen]

In what percentile, among Utah families, does a family of twelve fall?

OK, I get it. His house is smaller than Brigham Young's or Warren Jeff's.

Read the rules, " Any violation of Godwin's Law or similar laws (extreme comparisons or hyperbole), or lack of substance will result in the closing of a discussion" You are banned from the thread instead.

[O-Brother]

O-brother,

Perhaps this is more their style.

Love it. Very good find Zakuska! Thanks for sharing!

[Daniel Peterson]

OK, I get it. His house is smaller than Brigham Young's or Warren Jeff's.

No, you don't get it. His house is nothing really extraordinary. It is not indicative of "ginormous" wealth or elite status, let alone of corruption or greed.

And remember, you're not interested in this topic.

[Jeff K.]

Does Hansen realize how small minded and "jealous" he seems? Are all those who hate the Church of Jesus Christ really so contemptibly petty?

[Daniel Peterson]

Heck, I'll go even further:

If President Packer resides in a 50+ year-old <$500K house that sits on property that has appreciated over the past half century to a worth of something like $1.5 million and hasn't sold it, that fact shows that he values privacy more than luxury and cash. Which is precisely what I would expect from the man who told me that he had deliberately moved his family out to the boonies in order to "stay as far away from pharaoh's court as could," the notably shy man who hates meetings, doesn't really like public speaking, and loves nothing more than to get away from it all to paint and sculpt birds and horses and nature scenes (which he does rather well).

[Deborah]

However, a yearly tax return and an audit by an independent CPA firm is required. The tax return is filed with the IRS and a copy of the audit is also filed with the government. Both are subject to and are reviewed by government agencys.

That's what I was referring to. Thanks.

[ed2276]

Personally, I assume that its not the salary that draws LDS men to become GAs, but the power, influence and social benefits that flow from the position.

Because you are projecting onto them those things which would draw you to take such a position?

Out of the mouth comes the overflow of the heart.

[Calm]

I have nothing to say about the two acres that he's supposed to own, except that, when he purchased them more than fifty years ago, they were probably pretty cheap.

And they appear to be undeveloped, just trees from google map. Just looking down from on high, one can see a distinct difference between Bro. Packer's home and property and some surrounding houses. My home would probably be worth that much if it was located next to those, lol.

add-on: roof shape being what it is, it appears to be two level.

add-add-on: looking at the property lines provided with google map, it appears to include a grassy open area with a garden plot across what I am supposing is a driveway from the house. No structures though, no tennis courts or horse stables such as are on neighbours' lots and the garden and trees from the placement do not look particularly landscaped.

[ERayR]

I am merely suggesting that your characterization that the home is "modest" is inaccurate based on the available public data. Yes, it is possible the data are wrong.

The house may be 5239 on several levels. The public record indicates, however, a structure consisting of 5239 feet on the main level. I have made no reference to a basement, nor

does the public record. If, in fact, the house is 5239 on a single level or multiple levels for that matter, it is not modest in size relative to the average size of homes in SL County. It may be modest in appointment and furnishings, but not size. And it is certainly not modest in terms of value. The median priced home in SL County is 235k. The median size home is 2200 square feet. If BKP's house is 5239 feet and if the house is worth 1.7 million, BKP's house is 238% of the median in size and 723% of the median in value. Only 450 homes out of 7118 in SL County currently on the market are larger. This puts BKP's house among the top 6.3% in size.

Personally, I could care less. Your characterization of modest, needs to be put into perspective, though. Based on your suggestion as it relates to house size, being in the top 6% is modest. The house value puts it in the top 1.2% in the county. I am not sure where you derive your definition of modest as it relates to houses in SL County. Go visit some neighborhoods on the west side or Sugarhouse for that matter.

As far as location being determinate of value, I was referring to the Harvard/Yale area of Salt Lake City.

There are actually only 374 residential properties currently listed on the Wasatch Front Regional MLS that are priced greater than 1.7 million. So, no, there are not tens of thousands

of homes in Utah that are more expensive.

Rich a 2600 square foot home with a full basement is 5200 square feet and a 2600 square foot home is a modest home. What size house do you have?

[Daniel Peterson]

And they appear to be undeveloped, just trees from google map. Just looking down from on high, one can see a distinct difference between Bro. Packer's home and property and some surrounding houses. My home would probably be worth that much if it was located next to those, lol.

add-on: roof shape being what it is, it appears to be two level.

Thanks, calmoriah. Valuable data.

Rich, a 2600 square foot home with a full basement is 5200 square feet, and a 2600 square foot home is a modest home.

Exactly.

[bizabra]

"Main Sq. Ft.: 5239 . . . Total Sq. Ft.: 5239."

Endless. Enormous. Huge. Virtually infinite.

BIZ: Well, my 2 bedroom, one bath, modest $110,000 100+ year old home is only 900 sqf, so 5.8 times bigger IS is certainly Enormously Huge by my standards.

Not to mention the 2 acres. Well off, indeed, not what I would call "average".

edited for math error.

[bizabra]

Yes, like this...

...but obviously without the beard.

But I do agree that there is a fine balance between respect for leaders (and reverence for their office), and developing a personality cult. Most problems I have with this are things the members do, with a few missteps from SLC that probably should have been avoided (i.e. the President Monson General Conference Montage).

BIZ: LOL! Great pic! He looks like he could be sporting a ponytail, maybe!

[bizabra]

That looks very much like one of my sons when he's had a beard.

I'm gratified by the fact, though, that those who want to attack us on this point seem to be reduced to inventing nonsensical ideas, attributing them to us, and then attacking us on that basis.

That's a kind of vindication, I think.

BIZ: I'm not attacking you. Just poking at you with a stick, gently.

[bizabra]

I'm not sure you understand that a temple is supposed to be a sacrifice of the best offered up to God, not an afterthought. Humble is great for the members, as in our stake centers and chapels, but a Temple is a House dedicated to God, a place for him to dwell on earth and it's supposed to be nice. The people in Solomon's day understood and so did other peoples who built temples to their Gods throughout history. They didn't just put up a couple of two by fours, slap some paint on and call it good when it was to be dedicated as an offering to their God.

A Temple is no ordinary building.

/quote]

BIZ: If I was a god, I think I'd rather dwell in an oak grove.

[Calm]

A house the size of a barn could be a mansion....or it could be a barn.

While size can be an indicator of the lifestyle within, it is not the best indicator. A loft that is used as a dump for drug addicts, for example, is going to have a different lifestyle going for it than one that's been converted with an investment of several million even if sq footage is the same. Is the inside of the Packers' home designed by an interior designer with a new theme every couple of years? or is the style "whatever has managed to survive 10 children"?

When we lived in Russia, the building we lived in was considered one of the wealthier ones because even though it was older, it had been built by German slave labour and was very well built. There were extensive renovations going on. If one just went by the address, one could assume we were living quite wealthy. Our particular appt. however had little done to it in the years since 1940. The parquet floor was falling to pieces, the only thing holding it together was dirt. The radiators were frozen in one position, the mattresses were paperthin, the TV got one blurry channel with no sound, we hung our laundry to dry in the hallway, etc.

It is what is done inside to a home and the style of landscaping in my experience that is a real indicator of the wealth of the owner. I know plenty of older homes in now wealthy neighbourhoods who have the same furniture they did forty years ago.

[Droopy]

No one cares about my credibility. That's not the point. What counts is how much GA's earn during their successful careers vs. the humble blue collar working man that is never called to those positions. Facts are what count.

I'm just wondering, no disrespect at all to the "humble" lumpen blue collar working man (and I've been there), how many in the blue collar do you think, just off the top of your head, have the skill sets, experience, education, or temperament, to lead a global church with some 14 million members that includes expertise in economic, business, and organizational matters?

In other words, this isn't, in many ways, the 1st century Church.

[Daniel Peterson]

Moreover, as I've pointed out above, the "first-century church" of proletarian romance isn't the first-century church of history, either. Peter was apparently not poor, but a rather successful Galilean entrepreneur.

"Main Sq. Ft.: 5239 . . . Total Sq. Ft.: 5239."

Endless. Enormous. Huge. Virtually infinite.

BIZ: Well, my 2 bedroom, one bath, modest $110,000 100+ year old home is only 900 sqf, so 5.8 times bigger IS is certainly Enormously Huge by my standards.

Not to mention the 2 acres. Well off, indeed, not what I would call "average".

edited for math error.

And, of course, your $110,000 900-square-foot palace would intimidate most residents of Egypt and India, and would be considered enormous in Manhattan.

Good grief, folks. It's like tag-team wrestling. How long can this really be kept going?

If I was a god, I think I'd rather dwell in an oak grove.

Go ahead. Convince some people to worship you and then tell them what kind of temple you want.

[Calm]

I'm just wondering, no disrespect at all to the "humble" lumpen blue collar working man (and I've been there), how many in the blue collar do you think, just off the top of your head, have the skill sets, experience, education, or temperament, to lead a global church with some 14 million members that includes expertise in economic, business, and organizational matters?

In other words, this isn't, in many ways, the 1st century Church.

And let's not forget diplomacy as well.