Corrupt General Authorities and Their Huge Salaries

[SilverKnight]

Oh, I get the picture.

In the world of LDS apologetics, a 5200 sq foot home, valued at $1.55 M, in a prestigious Cottonwood Heights neigborhood, is a "modest home" in a "reasonably priced" SLC neighborhood because Dan Peterson says so.

Evidently you do not.

That you persist in claiming 80 year-old-man's, 50-year-old home, which has appreciated significantly in value, just as every other home built in the same time period, is evidence of the lavish lifestyles LDS GA's live at tithepayer expense is clear indication that you do not 'get the picture'.

[mfbukowski]

Oh, I get the picture.

In the world of LDS apologetics, a 5200 sq foot home, valued at $1.55 M, in a prestigious Cottonwood Heights neigborhood, is a "modest home" in a "reasonably priced" SLC neighborhood because Dan Peterson says so.

Who's business is it if it is a mansion?? (which clearly it is not. There are homes in California which I could show you which originally sold for 30,000 which are now worth over a million)

I have no problem whatsoever with GA's living comfortably especially when they have worked hard and earned what they have. What's your problem with it?

You apparently think that he has somehow stolen money from tithing funds- where is your proof?

If you have none, your accusations are baseless and should be dropped immediately. This is America, where it is still, for now, ok to work hard and provide for your family. And the fact that he worked for CES is totally irrelevant. Unless you have copies of his tax returns for the last 40 years you cannot know if he inherited it, invested well, or simply was guided to buy property in the right area and build a home up through thrift and industry.

CFR on your accusations that this is somehow improper. I am tired of it.

[lingo]

Pretty weak attempt at a guild-by-association cheap shot there.

The church is nothing like a charismatic TV evangelist's and you know it.

A better comparison would be any large, global church with a centralized leadership, like the Catholic church.

I was associating the financial similarities. If you took away all of the material seeable things and just looked at the numbers as an accountant, you would see the same solid numbers. They are indeed both great businesses in the faith field. Yes, the Catholic church as well if it makes you happy.

You are the one I guess who doesn't like to be associated with Benny Hinn. Yes, I know they did a study on him and those who went up to be healed and lo and behold, a year later they couldn' t find a one of the 50 who were actually healed--- but I guess the high priest in my old ward who blessed his pregnant Daughter-in-law and told her everything was going to be just fine(water broke but still no baby after almost 2 days at home with mid-wife) during the birth of 1st child was better, because he actually had the priesthood. By the time midwife convinced him (whom the family listened to because he had the priesthood) to take the girl to the doctor, it was too late. Baby was born dead.

[Jeff K.]

Oh, I get the picture.

In the world of LDS apologetics, a 5200 sq foot home, valued at $1.55 M, in a prestigious Cottonwood Heights neigborhood, is a "modest home" in a "reasonably priced" SLC neighborhood because Dan Peterson says so.

I don't think there exists an emoticon that could possible express how clueless the post is....

[SilverKnight]

I was associating the financial similarities. If you took away all of the material seeable things and just looked at the numbers as an accountant, you would see the same solid numbers.

You would see solid numbers? And that's the extent of it? They both are entities which take in money. Well you got me there.

They are indeed both great businesses in the faith field. Yes, the Catholic church as well if it makes you happy.

Doesn't make me particularly happy, but it makes you less of a liar.

You are the one I guess who doesn't like to be associated with Benny Hinn.

I don't care who you associate me with. But anyone can see a dishonest, infantile comparison when it is made.

Yes, I know they did a study on him and those who went up to be healed and lo and behold, a year later they couldn' t find a one of the 50 who were actually healed---

I don't doubt it. Anyone who purports to sell miracles for a profit is highly dubious.

I guess the high priest in my old ward who blessed his pregnant Daughter-in-law and told her everything was going to be just fine(water broke but still no baby after almost 2 days at home with mid-wife) during the birth of 1st child was better, because he actually had the priesthood. By the time midwife convinced him (whom the family listened to because he had the priesthood) to take the girl to the doctor, it was too late. Baby was born dead.

Last time I checked, LDS priesthood blessings were never supposed to be at the expense of proper medical care. I think you might be getting mormons confused with christian science.

And, when LDS priesthood blessings become proven, 100% effective ways to heal all medical maladies, cure all diseases, regenerate lost limbs and resurrect stillborn infants let me know - I plan to make a lot of money. Like Benny Hinn.

[Whiskeypete]

P.S.: Remember, Utah is the MLM capital of the world!

A certain man died and found himself at the Pearly Gates. He noticed that the gates were closed and locked. Wanting to get in, he knocked long and loudly on the gates. After several minutes of knocking, the gates open slightly and St. Peter sticks his head out.

"Can I help you?" St. Peter asks.

The man states that the would like to come into Heaven.

"Oh, I'm sorry," St. Peter says, "We're closed. Completely out of room. Not a single vacancy. You have do go down to the 'other' place, if you know what I mean. We didn't anticipate so many righteous souls."

This made the man furious. He yelled back at St. Peter, "What do you mean you're closed? I've lived righteously all my life and didn't do any of the fun things that my friends were doing just so I could get into Heaven. I could have been living it up. And now I have to go to you-know-where because of poor planning on your part. Isn't there anything you can do?"

St. Peter thought for a moment and the said, "Sit on that bench over there and wait. There is something I have always wanted to try."

The man sits on the bench and waits. After a few minutes, the gates of Heaven burst open and thousands of souls pour out of Heaven, rip off their halos and dive off the clouds. After the rush ends, St. Peter comes out smiling and says, "It looks like we have a few openings. Come on in."

"What did you do?" the man asked. "How did you get them to leave?"

"Easy!" St. Peter explained. "I just went to where all of the Mormons were, told them that there was a new multi-level-marketing opportunity opening up in Hell, and if they left now they could get in on the ground floor."

[Jeff K.]

[Doug the Hutt]

But what where they worth when he originally got them, and have you taken into account the over inflated pricing of homes on the Wasatch Front since that time?

1. don't know how much they were worth when they bought their land + home. I'm sure it's in some dank, musty vault somewhere. But even then relatively-speaking a 5200+ sq ft home was worth a bunch -- not $2M 2009 dollars but it wasn't Groundskeeper Willie's crapshack either.

2. I did not take into account anything about "over inflated pricing on homes along the Wasatch". But who's to say that they're over-inflated? Who decides the value of anything in our capitalist world? Answer: the market decides. If you paid $200,000 for your house then you as a factor of the market decided that you were willing to pay that much for it. Since President Packer has been there for 50 years his property is estimated by the Salt Lake County government (which uses relevant private market data) at that value based on what similar homes sell for in that area. If any person disagrees with the government assessed value then they're free to take it up with the county assessor. It doesn't change the reality that President Packer owns a piece of real estate with significant perceived worth (~$2,000,000).

3. Just so we're clear, I never implied that President Packer's home had anything to do with his life as a "stipend'-paid General Authority. I wanted to address Dr. Peterson's assertion that the home was modest by inserting some verifiable evidence that should not be overlooked and painted with words like "average" and "modest" when the numbers say something very different.

4. President Packer, a teacher of many years, made proper financial steps throughout his life, probably sacrificed potential purchases in favor of being in charge of his financial destiny and eventually became a multi-millionaire. It has absolutely nothing to do with GAs raiding the church coffers, but simply keeping oneself out of debt, building and maintaining an edifice that even in the 1950's was a large house with lots of potential. Every single one of us, regardless of how much of a believer in things made of steel, horse or tapir one might be, SHOULD have a multi-million-dollar estate when we become octogenarians.

[lingo]

Doesn't make me particularly happy, but it makes you less of a liar.

comparison makes me a liar?

I don't care who you associate me with. But anyone can see a dishonest, infantile comparison when it is made.

maybe the hundreds of thousands who follow him. maybe they are all too stupid according to you to notice. I don't particularly like him either but people are free to choose how to worship Christ as they will.

I don't doubt it. Anyone who purports to sell miracles for a profit is highly dubious.

Last time I checked, LDS priesthood blessings were never supposed to be at the expense of proper medical care. I think you might be getting mormons confused with christian science.

And, when LDS priesthood blessings become proven, 100% effective ways to heal all medical maladies, cure all diseases, regenerate lost limbs and resurrect stillborn infants let me know - I plan to make a lot of money. Like Benny Hinn.

Nope no confusion here. Branch prez(mormon) said daughter and baby would be fine in a blessing that was directed by God. This wasn't his first time to pronounce a healing that went wrong. If they aren't 100%, the men at the top may want to retrain that they are prayers just like other religions do. Not by the power of the priesthood, just a simple prayer by a common man. Simple prayers work by common christians as well as mormon christians not , I have more power because I hold the priesthood. Yes, young men are told "you have more power in your pinky with the priesthood than even preachers"

[Jeff K.]

I have difficulty in finding the story credible, even from a branch president. Most Mormons will tell you the story is not credible. Those who hate Mormons though will tell you other wise. They will complement you on your wise counsel and insight. They will make you feel pretty good about the story.

To most Mormons though, it is not a credible story, not from the standpoint that a doctor was indicated not to be needed, not from policy, not from any standpoint.

[ERayR]

I was associating the financial similarities. If you took away all of the material seeable things and just looked at the numbers as an accountant, you would see the same solid numbers. They are indeed both great businesses in the faith field. Yes, the Catholic church as well if it makes you happy.

Huh. What?

[Daniel Peterson]

Oh, I get the picture.

In the world of LDS apologetics, a 5200 sq foot home, valued at $1.55 M, in a prestigious Cottonwood Heights neigborhood, is a "modest home" in a "reasonably priced" SLC neighborhood because Dan Peterson says so.

No. Because Jaybear denies it.

Still, even though your espousal of the opposing position is quite sufficient to warrant rejecting it, more can be said. I doubt very much that the neighborhood was prestigious, or even much of a neighborhood, when the young Boyd K. Packer, just pulled from employment in the Church Education System to serve as an assistant to the Twelve, built a home there, far to the south of downtown Salt Lake City and over on the eastern edge of the Valley, to house his family of twelve.

Since he built the house at the beginning of his tenure as a General Authority, it really makes no sense to suggest that it was built with all of the gold, silver, diamonds, and pearls that are routinely strewn at the feet of the Brethren. No, the real source of his enormous wealth back in the sixties has to have been his lucrative employment with CES. Which is, of course, extremely probable, given what we know about the lavish compensation ladled out to teachers and administrators in the Seminaries and Institutes system.

[ERayR]

No. Because Jaybear denies it.

Still, even though your espousal of the opposing position is quite sufficient to warrant rejecting it, more can be said. I doubt very much that the neighborhood was prestigious, or even much of a neighborhood, when the young Boyd K. Packer, just pulled from employment in the Church Education System to serve as an assistant to the Twelve, built a home there, far to the south of downtown Salt Lake City and over on the eastern edge of the Valley, to house his family of twelve.

Since he built the house at the beginning of his tenure as a General Authority, it really makes no sense to suggest that it was built with all of the gold, silver, diamonds, and pearls that are routinely strewn at the feet of the Brethren. No, the real source of his enormous wealth back in the sixties has to have been his lucrative employment with CES. Which is, of course, extremely probable, given what we know about the lavish compensation ladled out to teachers and administrators in the Seminaries and Institutes system.

Am I remembering incorrectly or didn't the Packer family have a lucrative automobile sales business back then. If so I would assume he could have gotten some financing from the family. Just a thought.

[Daniel Peterson]

Am I remembering incorrectly or didn't the Packer family have a lucrative automobile sales business back then. If so I would assume he could have gotten some financing from the family. Just a thought.

Maybe. I've never heard that.

It wouldn't surprise me, though, if members of the extended family were to have helped a CES administrator with a very large family into a house and lot, in a fairly low-cost semi-rural area, that were large enough for his children. Good families sometimes do things like that -- my parents and my in-laws helped us into a better house than I could have afforded at the time when I moved to BYU from grad school -- and it's hard to see such things as sinister or evil or indicative of greed or economic elitism.

I wonder how much the house of Familie Jaybear is worth. Since President Packer's is being scrutinized here, perhaps Counselor Jaybear would like to go on record for comparative purposes? (Given his stated religious skepticism, I'm guessing that he doesn't reside in a monastic cell under a vow of poverty.)

[Scott Lloyd]

No. Because Jaybear denies it.

Still, even though your espousal of the opposing position is quite sufficient to warrant rejecting it, more can be said. I doubt very much that the neighborhood was prestigious, or even much of a neighborhood, when the young Boyd K. Packer, just pulled from employment in the Church Education System to serve as an assistant to the Twelve, built a home there, far to the south of downtown Salt Lake City and over on the eastern edge of the Valley, to house his family of twelve.

Since he built the house at the beginning of his tenure as a General Authority, it really makes no sense to suggest that it was built with all of the gold, silver, diamonds, and pearls that are routinely strewn at the feet of the Brethren. No, the real source of his enormous wealth back in the sixties has to have been his lucrative employment with CES. Which is, of course, extremely probable, given what we know about the lavish compensation ladled out to teachers and administrators in the Seminaries and Institutes system.

Daniel is right. I grew up in the south end of the Salt Lake Valley, and I live there now. I have seen explosive growth (with resulting inflation in property values) over the course of my lifetime, which corresponds roughly to the time in which President Packer has lived there. What was once largely farmland is now expensive real estate, only because of the influx of population and the attendant development of infrastructure, commerce, amenities, etc.

[Scott Lloyd]

I wonder how much the house of Familie Jaybear is worth. Since President Packer's is being scrutinized here, perhaps Counselor Jaybear would like to go on record for comparative purposes? (Given his stated religious skepticism, I'm guessing that he doesn't reside in a monastic cell under a vow of poverty.)

Or donate anywhere near 10 percent of his income for charitable/religious purposes.

[gtaggart]

Oh, I get the picture.

In the world of LDS apologetics, a 5200 sq foot home, valued at $1.55 M, in a prestigious Cottonwood Heights neigborhood, is a "modest home" in a "reasonably priced" SLC neighborhood because Dan Peterson says so.

Hey, does anyone know if the rules of the board allow someone--let's say, me--to call Jaybear a 'twit'? Please let me know.

[Doug the Hutt]

Much as I appreciate the charming personal insults, I neither lied nor boasted.

It's been several years since I've been in President Packer's home, and I've only been there once, but I would be enormously surprised if it's worth anything even remotely like 1.6 million dollars. And a <500K home is not precisely lavish by today's standards, even with the current economic slump (let alone a year or two ago).

I don't know what to make of there being two structures (on the same property?). The home I visited -- which is plainly the one in which he was living -- wasn't tiny, but it wasn't large, either. And -- I think this is relevant -- he raised ten children in it. Doing so in a two-bedroom apartment would have been rather awkward He told me that he had built the home himself (I have no idea whether that means that he had it built or that he actually did all or most of the framing and wiring and etc. himself; some people do such things), and that he did so when he was first called as an assistant to the Twelve. He put it rather far south in the Valley because, he said, he "wanted to be as far away from Pharaoh's court as possible" -- which I took to mean that he really wanted to be home and fully with his family when he was home.

The place was absolutely not ostentatious or lavish. Nobody walking into it unaware of the identity of its occupant would ever be constrained to say "Oooooh! This clearly belongs to a wealthy and powerful man!"

There is a parallel thread to this one over on another board, a thread of which my Malevolent Stalker is the impresario and chief demagogue. Somebody there says that Elder Packer's home sits on two acres. That may be true, for all I know. I can easily imagine that the relatively high valuation of the property might be largely due to its size, in a suburban neighborhood that has grown up considerably since Elder Packer purchased the then-cheap land in a fairly distant and undeveloped spot back in the sixties. This is a common phenomenon. One of our best friends in our neighborhood is a former fruit farmer who has done exceedingly well by subdividing and selling off land that was once cheap but -- to put it mildly -- no longer is. And there are many multimillionaire Idaho potato farmers whose money is entirely in their land. It would be ridiculous to regard most of these salt-of-the-earth types as anything remotely like tycoons or venture capitalists or junk-bond traders.

If you want to call me a liar or insult me in other ways, though, feel free. I'm not unaccustomed to graceless and uncivil fanatics. The fact remains that I've seen the house, and been in it, and it's absolutely nothing extraordinary.

Incidentally, for what it's worth: Those who seek to portray LDS General Authorities as a greedy tithe-payer supported financial elite heighten the effect of their misrepresentation by comparing them to the supposed "blue collar workers," the humble peasant fishermen and carpenters, who were Jesus' first disciples. But this, too, may be a distortion. In the center of the ruins of Capernaum, just south of the synagogue, are the purported remains of the home of St. Peter, chief of the apostles. I'm generally skeptical of such identifications, but the archaeological evidence, in this particular case, seems to me (and to many others) remarkably strong. I think this was his home. And it was, by the standards of the day and the place, a pretty nice house. Not lavish, but one of the better houses in the village, if not, indeed, altogether the best. Peter wasn't merely a fisherman. He seems to have been a businessman, and a successful one, at that.

.

Let's look again --

1. You started the thread

2. You took some anti-Mormon guys' comments (image: frothing-at-the-mouth-in-seething-hatred) who complained that teachers don't make much money and yet President Packer lives in a monstrous estate, and insists that Apostles are paid to be apostles. (2 separate points that may or may not be correlated)

3. You took issue with the idea that President Packer's home is a monstrous estate by:

a. labeling him sarcastically an "Einstein", much in the same way you call a bald guy "Curly" or fat guy "Slim".

b. you stated that you've been at President Packer's home which makes your anecdotal opinion matter more than Mr.-driveby-in-envy's who may or may not have peeked inside

c. you give us your tailored-opinion on President Packer's living arrangements as "reasonably average suburban neighborhood southward in the Salt Lake Valley". The "average-ness" to which you refer is only meaningful relative to the rest of the well-to-do-ers in Cottonwood since they're obviously far above average when you slog on out and compare their home to a crackerbox out in West Valley(gangsta) City.

d. you assert (probably quite correctly) that the home is "nice enough" (frankly it oughta be).

e. you state the home is "not new, and anything but lavish". How does that change its value? I'm sure you know that the age of an edifice doesn't make it necessarily valuable or invaluable. And "lavish" doesn't mean the same to you as it does to three latino families all scrunched together in one two bedroom apartment in Atlanta. I'm quite sure they would call the Packer's ten bedroom home "lavish". I'd probably call it lavish too since it's friggin enormous compared to the average Utah home -- land and living space matters, not just the other amenities.

f. you tailed that comment stating that your own neighborhood has much larger homes then theirs. WOW. The area in which you live has an average home size of over 5,200 square feet? No wonder you think theirs is just a modest little average unlavish home maintained on a modest stipend. You should spend a little time away from your life of privileged exuberance and world traveling and maybe you'll get a more meaningful definition of "modest" and "average".

g. you finished your post with another sarcastic quip. It's like the double-tap mentioned in the movie "Zombieland". Beat that "anti" down!

3. You stated "The place was absolutely not ostentatious or lavish. Nobody walking into it unaware of the identity of its occupant would ever be constrained to say "Oooooh! This clearly belongs to a wealthy and powerful man!"". If we did a man-on-the-street-interview of 1,000 people and drove them up to President Packer's house, would they think his home gives the impression that he's wealthy? Answer: irrelevant. We already have a decent point of reference that publishes his property value (the url I posted before) as well as other means to determine its valule. Other than that the house is friggin huge and so is its land footprint compared to pretty much every home in my city. To me I'd certainly conclude that the person who occupied it is wealthy. I'm not wealthy and I certainly cannot buy a 5,200 square foot home in Cottonwood, Park City or anywhere else.

4. "If you want to call me a liar or insult me in other ways, though, feel free. I'm not unaccustomed to graceless and uncivil fanatics. The fact remains that I've seen the house, and been in it, and it's absolutely nothing extraordinary." Okay it's apparently nothing extraordinary, other than the building size, the acreage, the heating bill and the potential sales value. And maybe you're not a liar -- maybe you're just out-of-touch and your field of vision by which you make comments like "average" and "modest" just doesn't seem to include the general proletariat corpus. Is that how you can stare into a camera and insist that a horse ain't a horse, and, of course, say that it's *possible/plausible* that it might be a tapir? No serious -- if your mental facility can't tell the difference between an average modest home in the valley and a $2,000,000 mansion what value do the rest of your Animal Farm-like comments have?

I guess the problem I have with your comments is that I find it ludicrous to insist that a 5,239 square foot, 2.18 acre, ~$2,000,000 estate is an average, humble little dwelling in the "southward" part of the Salt Lake Valley. If you want to challenge the truth claim that General Authorities don't get paid large salaries when the nay-sayers can point to a GA teacher sitting on a $2,000,000 estate you'd better not poo-poo that appears to the rest of the 6,800,000,000 people in the world. A better argument (as I made earlier to another respectful poster) would be that President Packer simply made good, consistent financial,decisions in life, kept himself out of debt (I assume he's out of debt -- I really don't know) maintained his property which he raised 10 children in, and every one of us should have a multi-million-dollar-estate when we get to be his age. It doesn't necessarily have to do with a G.A. Qo12 salary/"stipend".

[cinepro]

Since he built the house at the beginning of his tenure as a General Authority, it really makes no sense to suggest that it was built with all of the gold, silver, diamonds, and pearls that are routinely strewn at the feet of the Brethren.

That's probably the most interesting point in all of this. If the issue is how much GA's get paid, then we should look at what they're doing after they become GA's. Why would we look at their lifestyle before they were called? (Of course, that would mean the argument in Elder Packer's case is that CES personnel are getting overpaid... )

[structurecop]

Or donate anywhere near 10 percent of his income for charitable/religious purposes.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Scott Lloyd]

What does that have to do with anything?

It goes to the hypocrisy of a likely well-compensated lawyer carping about the financial affairs of Church leaders and doing it under cover of anonymity.

[Scott Lloyd]

That's probably the most interesting point in all of this. If the issue is how much GA's get paid, then we should look at what they're doing after they become GA's. Why would we look at their lifestyle before they were called? (Of course, that would mean the argument in Elder Packer's case is that CES personnel are getting overpaid... )

Why would purchase of a home 50 years ago in what was then a rural area of Salt Lake County indicate that CES personnel are getting overpaid?

[structurecop]

It goes to the hypocrisy of a likely well-compensated lawyer carping about the financial affairs of Church leaders and doing it under cover of anonymity.

Jaybear is a lawyer? Well, good on him!

[ferdinand]

Over on the oddly-named "Recovery" board, which is far more bizarre, even, than my Malevolent Stalker's lair, some of the inmates are pooling their ignorance and hostility in a discussion of the "ginormous salaries and spend[ing?] accounts" that "guarantee and ensure" that General Authorities don't leave the Church like these self-styled heroic geniuses have: "If they were paid less, you'd probably see them leaving more often."

A principal exhibit in support of their case is "the reality behind the Boyd K. Packer estate." As one poster emits, "Seminary teachers/principals aren't paid jack, and this guy spent his whole 'career' in CES. Yet look at his estate. It's monstrous. I've seen it. You can't tell me he isn't paid for his apostleship."

I don't know what this particular Einstein may have seen, but I've been in President Packer's home, which sits at the end of a cul-de-sac in a reasonably average suburban neighborhood southward in the Salt Lake Valley.

[alter idem]

Okay folks, I went through (4) pages of this thread and not a single person even provided proof either for or against Dr. Peterson's personal testimoney of President Packer's ~~quaint-little-average-suburban-home-in-teh-valley~~.

http://www.assessor....uery/query2.cfm (enter 1850, packer)

So, at his 1850 address there are two listed for him -- one for a 2009 market value of $482,300 (which is far more than my house is worth....lol) and one for $1,606,790. What? 1.6 million dollars is now considered "a reasonably average suburban neighborhood southward in Salt Lake Valley.

edit:

http://extras.sltrib.com/HomePrices/

BULL FLIPPIN CRAP. DCP, you either posted it in this way to prove to us how rich & well-off you are personally (because "many of the homes in (your) own neighborhood are MUCH LARGER"), or lied to us outright.

I don't know where you are getting your info. I know where he lives--Pres. Packer's house is very modest, not a million dollar home. I suspect the property is worth more than the house and since he bought so long ago, before they started selling postage stamp size lots, I'm sure he's got a nice piece of property. Yes, the home prices have appreciated substantially here and all around his home there are huge McMansions which have been built in the last few years. But, I can assure you, his is an older home and very modest--especially by Salt Lake standards.