Corrupt General Authorities and Their Huge Salaries

[Paul Osborne]

Those who think that the church leadership consists of white collar types living in mansions milking the tithing coffers needs to pull their crainiums out of the dark for a breath of air

Why on earth would I want to reply to such an unChristian remark? I won't!

I feel that several LDS apologists need to clean up their act and walk with more kindness. Personal attacks against posters is ugly. I understand how it can be fun to sling nasty insults towards other posters but this board is not not supposed to be that way.

To apologists of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

Act like saints!

Paul O

[Nofear]

Transparency and open books are not going to happen. Total benefits/compensation enjoyed by top ministers of the church are a matter of private concern. You'll simply have to wait for one of the top officials of the church to defect and start a scandal. There is no way of knowing if that will happen in our lifetime but it's possible.

Possible. There have been stake presidents and general authorities excommunicated. Alas, none I'm aware of were so bold as to blow the whistle on the the alleged deep and dastardly financial abuses going on. /sigh

We should add it to the list of failed apostate "prophecy".

[Daniel Peterson]

To apologists of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

Act like saints!

Matthew 7:1-5.

I'm trying to think back over the bishops that I've had during my life. Off hand, I can recall a welder, an accountant, a policeman, a shopkeeper, a stockbroker, a high school basketball coach, a high school math teacher, an engineer, a businessman, a college track coach, a physical therapist, and the owner of a small auto repair business. All Wall Street tycoons, obviously.

My stake presidents have included two businessmen, an accountant, two CES instructors, an elementary school teacher, and a psychologist.

[Jeff K.]

We can all agree that the group known as General Authorities is a tight-knit group of elite men who have talents in many areas of life within the white collar industries. They will continue to control the church so long as the vast majority of the members of the church believe that white collar men are needed to run the church in the manner it is being run. The typical member believes that the calling of a GA is God inspired. I don't believe they are. I believe men are calling men and God has little to do with it but is actually quite displeased with how things have turned out.

The obvious ignorance of that statement if fairly easy to refute. You see from Osbornes standpoint it is the general authorities who run the church. From a member's standpoint it is God. Then the question revolves whether or not we care who God picks. Do we have sufficient faith in the truthfulness of our church to let Christ make the decisions as to who will operate his upon this earth.

As long as Christ is in the head of this church I have no concerns.

I think the height of incredible chicken neck, wing nut, brain dead, conspiracy in the dark of the night, nut case evidence, is how someone who isn't a member, is not forced to be a member, has no effect as a member, and whose life is not affected by the church beyond his own desire to interact with it, says "The typical member believes that the calling of a GA is God inspired. I don't believe they are". Big whoop. Your opinion is duly noted and dismissed. LIke someone who is watching a game on the tele and is upset when the coach and players don't listen to them. Change the channel my poor benighted friend. Complain about "I love Lucy"....You'll feel better.

[Daniel Peterson]

When I was leading an intensive Arabic program in Jerusalem some years ago, the fathers of two of the students in the larger, more general Jerusalem Center program were called as General Authorities at conference. We thought it was quite remarkable that, of 170 students, two had fathers called to the presiding quorums. It seemed statistically improbable.

Anyway, one of the two newly-called General Authorities was a lawyer. This is, of course, consistent with the class/status complaint that is one of Paul's recurrent themes. But the other was an Idaho potato farmer. And that . . . well, it doesn't. Best to ignore it, I suppose.

[Jeff K.]

Idaho potato farmers, the secret elite of the LDS church, inroads made with funeral potatos

[ERayR]

Idaho potato farmers, the secret elite of the LDS church, inroads made with funeral potatos

Indeed they make up a large majority of the worlds wealthiest. Also very white collar occupations.

[ebeddoulos]

Why on earth would I want to reply to such an unChristian remark? I won't!

I feel that several LDS apologists need to clean up their act and walk with more kindness. Personal attacks against posters is ugly. I understand how it can be fun to sling nasty insults towards other posters but this board is not not supposed to be that way.

To apologists of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

Act like saints!

Paul O

Took that kinda personal did ya? Kuel!

[lingo]

Why don't you post all of your financial documents and data, and your property title? That would enhance the credibility of your demand that Elder Holland release his. (Marginally, at least.)

Done, I accept your challenge. Since you and Elder Holland are friends I guess, tell him I will be glad to post my financials side by side with his. But really, his financials are not the ones I wish to see. I would just like the organiation that says, "no, we are a tax exempt organization" to be open with the public and not hide the financial workings of the church. The church really does do some great things with its money and workforce, why all of the secrecy?

[Daniel Peterson]

Done, I accept your challenge.

Sorry. I don't see your financial data.

I had expected that you would post it all here, on this board. But it's fine if you've posted it elsewhere. Can you supply a link?

Since you and Elder Holland are friends I guess, tell him I will be glad to post my financials side by side with his.

Oh. I'm afraid you misunderstood. I invited you to post all of your own financial information, saying that that would give your demand at least a tiny bit more credibility.

I would just like the organiation that says, "no, we are a tax exempt organization" to be open with the public and not hide the financial workings of the church. The church really does do some great things with its money and workforce, why all of the secrecy?

I don't really know, and I don't much care. That's a separate issue.

[lingo]

I evidently passed it about thirty minutes ago. I would like to have seen it. I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title. I'm not privy to the insider information that you've evidently seen.

.

you're right, maybe I misunderstood you in the above reply you gave earlier. May I retype your quote. "I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title." I just agreed with you so in essence, I guess we should both put up our financials to entice Mr. Holland.

[Daniel Peterson]

"I would like to see the financial documents on it, and the property title." I just agreed with you so in essence, I guess we should both put up our financials to entice Mr. Holland.

But I have no interest at all in "enticing" Elder Holland to put all of his personal financial information on the web. I don't snoop into my neighbors' personal finances, either, and I've never had the slightest intention of posting my own private data.

This is your weird interest.

Post all of your personal financial information, if you want others to do so. Maybe they'll follow your bizarre example. Maybe they won't. I'm quite confident that they won't.

[Jeff K.]

Does knowing the financial well being somehow increase the faith of these "people" who have such an intense interst in an organization they have nothing to do with? Well no, it doesn't.

Will it stop their carping and attacks upon the church? No, they will always find something to complain about or attack.

Is wealth an indication of righteousness? No, not really.

So what is the point? Well thats just it. People who hate Mormons lead pointless lives and they do pointless things. Their existence, at least in what they do here is rather pointless. Making them the ultimate losers.

[Widow's Son]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I did have a close relationship with a newly called General Authority, enough to get a feel for his "financial package."

Since he came from outside the US, his family needed a little help getting "situated". He got a housing allowance that was sufficient for a decidedly middle class house, which was much less than he would have had at home. He got an allowance for a car. He was initially going to get a Toyota or Honda, but was "counseled" to get an American car. He got a mid level Chevrolet. My impression was that it was a revolving lease that the Church paid. He purchased another car on his own.

He was given a standard health insurance plan and a monthly living expenses stipend that seemed to me to be individual to what his family's needs were rather than a standard across the board allowance. His kids were also given free tuition at BYU.

What really surprised me was when he was eventually released to Emeritus status, he lost his Church health insurance and went on Medicare and Social Security. I would have thought that a career GA would have deserved health insurance for life, but such is not the case.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that his financial status as a Church servant was a fraction of what it would have been for him and his family in the private sector from which he was called.

[lingo]

People who hate Mormons lead pointless lives and they do pointless things.

Do the missionaries hate non mormons? Do the missionaries sometimes get into great heated discussions with non members? I will answer for you. No and Yes. I could possibly have more friends that are mormon than you. (pure speculation of course). I do not seek to destroy what they hold dear in their hearts nor when I post on a board. Do I hope as a missionary would, that I could convince someone to come to what I believe is the truth in this game of Red Rover, Red Rover albeit, with eternal consequences? I have heard it said in many sacrament meetings about planting a seed. It may grow now or at sometime in the future. Do I believe the mormon church is manmade? Yes. Does it do good in society? yes Do I think it is a more of a financial instrument than a church entity? Yes.

You would be denying the truth if you didn't think the church is out to bring as many people away from their current belief to the LDS belief. So why is it different when someone tries this in reverse? It is almost as if the mormons what to play by one set of rules during their 'recruiting' and then deny those same rules to others when the outcome being saught after is to bring someone away from the church. I will conceed the point that most ex or anti as you call them are more agressive in their efforts. Some even cross the line of decency. A good amount of people that have left the church do so with some reason. (once again, not all-some just turn their backs on religion all together) Those people that remain Christian feel stongly that the church is wrong for their eternal salvation.

Many wars have been because of differences in religion. Although these boards seem like a war sometimes, they are definately a more civil way of voicing one's side.

One of my favorite quotes is by M. Glenn. "We are in violent agreement." I testify that Jesus Christ is my Savior and I believe that you do the same.

[Daniel Peterson]

Do I think it is a more of a financial instrument than a church entity? Yes.

You forfeit much of your credibility, in my judgment at least, when you admit to such a thing.

You would be denying the truth if you didn't think the church is out to bring as many people away from their current belief to the LDS belief. So why is it different when someone tries this in reverse? It is almost as if the mormons what to play by one set of rules during their 'recruiting' and then deny those same rules to others when the outcome being saught after is to bring someone away from the church.

We preach our doctrine. We don't target other faiths. There's a huge and substantial difference between preaching one's own doctrine and attacking the doctrines of others.

Have you posted your financial documents yet? Please provide a link.

[Jaybear]

We preach our doctrine. We don't target other faiths. There's a huge and substantial difference between preaching one's own doctrine and attacking the doctrines of others.

I fail to see any material difference.

Its your doctrine that the LDS Church is the one and only true church on the face of the earth. You can't preach about the "great apostasy" and the "restoration" of Christ's Church without expressly attacking the "truth" of the faith of others.

But frankly, who cares. If you have all the answers, and are in business of saving souls, just do what you have to do.

[Paul Osborne]

Took that kinda personal did ya? Kuel!

Yes, I did take it personal. I try to keep the board rules the best I can and will freely admit when I screw up. I'm not going to sling mud or other filthy things on other posters.

I'm committed to keeping the board rules. Sometimes I get the strong urge to remind others to be more like me and to keep the rules too. I think that demonstrates some measure of integrity whether appreciated or not.

Paul O

[Deborah]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that his financial status as a Church servant was a fraction of what it would have been for him and his family in the private sector from which he was called.

Unfortunately the critics will overlook your post or ignore it because they don't want to hear anything that might detract from their already confirmed knowledge based on speculation alone.

[cdowis]

I fail to see any material difference.

OK, jaybear, you convinced me -- JS was a fraud, a fake.

Now what.

What exactly do you have to offer after you have convinced me to leave Mormonism. After all, there is no material difference between you and the Mormon missionaries.

Teach me........ I am listening. Where do I go from here?

[ebeddoulos]

Yes, I did take it personal. I try to keep the board rules the best I can and will freely admit when I screw up. I'm not going to sling mud or other filthy things on other posters.

I'm committed to keeping the board rules. Sometimes I get the strong urge to remind others to be more like me and to keep the rules too. I think that demonstrates some measure of integrity whether appreciated or not.

Paul O

You have never crossed my radar before so I think I shall add you to my watch list for when I am in need of a belly-laugh. For those you have provided in this, your most recent response, I thank you ... sincerely. I find it extremely humorous that you take personal offense to a suggestion that someone needs to come up for a healthy breath of fresh air. This is especially funny to me in light of the fact that it was not stated with you specifically in mind but rather to the tone of the remarks of the antis in general found throughout this entire thread. Proverbs 1:26 comes readily to mind.

[lingo]

Widows Son says, "There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that his financial status as a Church servant was a fraction of what it would have been for him and his family in the private sector from which he was called."

Unfortunately the critics will overlook your post or ignore it because they don't want to hear anything that might detract from their already confirmed knowledge based on speculation alone.

I don't overlook it. Deborah, both sides speculate. I certainly don't think that all GAs base their career decisions on money. My last job paid around 120k a year and my new career in owning my own business pays half that amount. Am I worried? No, I am very fiancially secure and now I do something I love plus the perks are great. But yet as my youngest studies 'fractions' in school maybe you could clear it up. 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 7/8. These are all fractions. widows son, can you please elaborate on your 'no doubt' fraction.

[Jeff K.]

Uchdorf with bonuses and stock options probably would be making well over five million a year.

But you can't beat his post life retirement benefits in his present position now can you?

[Paul Osborne]

Unfortunately the critics will overlook your post or ignore it because they don't want to hear anything that might detract from their already confirmed knowledge based on speculation alone.

Pure speculation from the both of you.

None of can see the future of Packer had he not become a GA. There is no telling what his salary would have been and who his employers would be.

It seems reasonable to me that had he never become a GA he would still have been able to pay for that nice house which I assume the church bought for him in return for his services as a church minister.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

You have never crossed my radar before so I think I shall add you to my watch list for when I am in need of a belly-laugh. For those you have provided in this, your most recent response, I thank you ... sincerely. I find it extremely humorous that you take personal offense to a suggestion that someone needs to come up for a healthy breath of fresh air. This is especially funny to me in light of the fact that it was not stated with you specifically in mind but rather to the tone of the remarks of the antis in general found throughout this entire thread. Proverbs 1:26 comes readily to mind.

Fine, let me be a source of a good laugh. Laugh all you want. Just so know, I keep the rules around here the best I can and expect others to do the same.

Paul O