The Great Fast Offering Myth

[Mortal Man]

I should explain a few more things, since some of the issues here are peculiar to our ward.

The argument in bishopric meeting has a history that began several years ago when our bishop-before-last (the one who called me as finance clerk) commented over the pulpit on several occasions that our ward was not "carrying its weight" in fast offerings. He stressed the need to be self-sufficient as a ward and urged the members to increase their contributions. This set off a bit of a stir and I recall one sister calling me up to verify whether this was indeed the case and to probe me for more information. She wanted to use it in her sacrament meeting talk the following Sunday. I told her only that it was true that the ward's FO expenditures exceeded it's intake. (We had some large conniving families move into our ward who managed to convice the bishop that their cell phones, cable television etc. were essential to their survival.) The next Sunday she gave a talk about how we all ought to be ashamed for making the bishop go borrow money from the other wards. This led to hallway banter and classroom comments that gradually morphed into the idea (or strengthened a preexisting idea) that the ward had its own fast offering account, which was currently running a deficit, which would presumably have to be made up somehow. I think this erroneous idea is present to some extent in just about every ward, but over the last few years it has become fundamental doctrine in our ward.

I don't see any way to justify the statement that the money "stays in the ward." It does not "stay in the ward" in any important sense. There is no ward fast offering account at the local bank. The bishop does not manage or control the FO account, other than to use the numbers for motivational purpose. He is not required to balance the fast offering budget. Fundamentally, the money all goes into one big pot from which it is distributed worldwide. The fact that ward contributions and expenditures are recorded in MLS and reflected in monthly reports has nothing to do with the money "staying in the ward." That statement implies that local payments are tied to local contributions. The bishop does not have to go begging to other bishops or the stake president if his ward comes up short. He pays out whatever he feels like, regardless of his ward's contributions. However, many members (just about everyone in our ward) think it works like the old budgeting system where members were asked to contibute directly to their own ward budgets.

Our bishopric has good reasons for not correcting this misconception. They know from experience that most members are very willing to contribute to our scout troop because they know the boys and they know what the funds will be used for (summer camp etc.) However, the members are less inclined to contibute to Friends of Scouting because the money is shipped off to who knows where to be used for who knows what. They all say "I'd rather just contibute directly to our local troop." So if you're the bishop and a member hands you his FO donation and says, "This money stays in the ward to help our local members, doesn't it?" How do you respond?

Regarding "Sister X," she would not have lost her testimony if I had spoken up in class and said that the money is transferred to Salt Lake; rather, she would have been annoyed with me for contradicting her and I doubt she would have believed it. Furthermore, the class would have been irritated at me for disrupting the spirit.

[mfbukowski]

No I think he just wants them to tell the truth, not a partial truth, the complete truth that you told just now. So why don't they tell the complete truth? As far as I'm concerned, stating, "The money stays in the ward," is not the complete truth. Do you really call that the complete truth? Do you think the complete truth as you just stated would have the same faith promoting effect on people as, "The money stays in the ward." I don't. I don't limit lying to semantic accuracy of a statement. A true statement can be just as deceptive and misleading as any false statement if it is incomplete. Guess where I learned that? CHURCH!

I'd like to get a poll of how many people think it's good to deceive people as long as it's faith promoting. Where do you stand on that? How do you define "Lie." Is it a false statement, or is it a statement that produces a non faith promoting result? What is truth? Is it a correct statement, or is it a statement that is faith promoting and optimistic? Do words have any meaning at all? I guess not.

I went into a lengthy explanation because this is a hostile environment that required it. Bishops are busy people. They don't have 15 minutes to describe the intricacies of transfers to SLC. In fact I left out a few steps in all this. For example, when we write a check for welfare, we have to transmit electronically the amount that we wrote the check for, and it requires passwords to do that. The money is not even in our account that we actually write the check against until we transmit to SLC that we wrote the check, and they transfer it in to cover the amount of the check. That prevents fraud if checks are stolen and somebody starts writing checks on the church account. If we forget to transmit, or the transmission doesn't go though, the checks will bounce.

So do you think it would have been wise of the bishop to take 15 minutes out of PEC, which is a very important meeting, to give out all the details to people who were supposedly friendly in the first place? All he needed to say was "The money stays in our ward" which was perfectly accurate for the purpose at hand.

And if you persist in this silliness don't expect a reply from me until at least monday because sundays I am too busy to play on the computer!

[mfbukowski]

He is not required to balance the fast offering budget. Fundamentally, the money all goes into one big pot from which it is distributed worldwide. The fact that ward contributions and expenditures are recorded in MLS and reflected in monthly reports has nothing to do with the money "staying in the ward." That statement implies that local payments are tied to local contributions. The bishop does not have to go begging to other bishops or the stake president if his ward comes up short.

How could a finance clerk possibly know what conversations happen between a bishop and stake president? Totally untrue. Of course there is no "begging", but if you are running a deficit, you can bet your life it will be discussed. What happens in a ward affects the stake, and the stake affects the cluster, and on up the chain.

The money "stays in the ward" only if there is enough coming in. If there is not, it goes for helping people survive, which is its purpose.

I cannot for the life of me even understand why this is an issue.

[Stargazer]

I cannot for the life of me even understand why this is an issue.

You've been here since Sept '08 and you're wondering this?

The critics of the church think pretty much everything is an issue. With particular emphasis on money.

[Calm]

I think this erroneous idea is present to some extent in just about every ward, but over the last few years it has become fundamental doctrine in our ward.

Really, maybe it's just that I've known quite a few clerks and bishops and RS President but my experience is that most people are well aware of how the FOs are processed.

I can understand that a bishop of a ward that is reluctant to contribute might think the ward would be even more reluctant if they thought about how the general church fast offering surplus could 'fill the gaps' for them so to speak. It sounds like MM's ward would normally have been in a self-sufficient state except for the presence of the "conniving families" and so the Stake President would likely be wondering what was going on.

I think this can be a problem when fast offerings are present as a financial obligation that needs to be met (even if "we need to take care of our poor" is a good obligation/duty) as opposed to a way to share blessings ("let's us all sit at the table of the Lord's together" sets up a different attitude).

[volgadon]

Fast offerings actually do stay in my branch. I am the 2nd counsellor, I should know. We have a safe place to keep them and take some out when necessary.

[CV75]

What do you think?

Without "getting into it" suggest the Bishop include an inspiring clarification on this particular point during a broader lesson on how the tithe and offerings or welfare or preparedness systems work, and how both the givers and receivers are blessed by their honest participation (during one of the 5th Sunday combined priesthood/relief society meetings, or however it you work it in your unit).

[Nyal]

Deleted to prevent derailment.

[Deborah]

The nitpickers are out today!!

I have always been taught and understood that the fast offerings meet first the ward needs and then if there is surplus it will go to the stake and on up. It is absolutely true that our fast offering go to help those in our own wards. Unfortunately in today's economy some wards are not even able to meet their own needs. Thank goodness for those wards whose contributions exceed their own needs.

It truly is a mini United Order as someone said.

[Asaph]

The nitpickers are out today!!

I have always been taught and understood that the fast offerings meet first the ward needs and then if there is surplus it will go to the stake and on up. It is absolutely true that our fast offering go to help those in our own wards. Unfortunately in today's economy some wards are not even able to meet their own needs. Thank goodness for those wards whose contributions exceed their own needs.

It truly is a mini United Order as someone said.

I for one think this is a good thing. This economy has heightened my interest in the United Order and things related to it. This is part of what appealed to me about the church. In this stake we have some poor "immigrant" wards and some stupendously wealthy ones. I am glad that there is mutual support within the stake. I live in a better off one, that could change tomorrow if boundaries change. That might not be a bad thing.

Asaph

[sethpayne]

Ok, so I have a question.

There have been several times when I have given the Bishop a check and asked that it go to help a specific family in our ward.

What happens to the funds in situations like this?

[oats]

I have done the clerical work in my branches and I think it would be insane to try and explain how the funds are transferred, stored etc. in order to perfectly and accurately explain that they are used by the ward but do not reside in the ward.

It takes enough effort to simply explain to auxiliary leaders how what is relevant to their own calling works.

This is beyond nit-picking in my opinion. I understand that some people get hung up on tiny things, and this may be the case. However it always necessary for us to recognize when we are being silly - even if it still irks us.

[Honorentheos]

First, my calling immediately before leaving the church was financial clerk, from which I was released after I discussed my feelings with the bishop. I was in the ward for about 3 months following while deciding what I thought was right. During that period, I stopped paying tithing for the simple fact I no longer believed the church was true and did not feel that my family should contribute 10% to maintain an institution for which I no longer felt any affiliation.

But if the teachers or priests showed up on my door step today (or last week I guess) asking for fast offerings, I would donate happily. Nuances aside, I saw in that ward the local benefits of fast offerings going to needed people in that community directly and would be more than willing to contribute.

My view of the process as clerk was the same as mfbukowski's description. I also was around on a few occasions when our ward ran a fast offering deficit due to extreme need over a couple of months by multiple families and we had a few discussions in special ward councils and PEC meetings on how the stake was helping our ward, but that the bishop wanted us to be self-sufficient in helping our members. Internal to the financial clerk, ward clerk, and bishopric we had a figure we were conscious of needing to be so. The bishop never said it to the members but only asked that everyone be aware of the increased need in the ward and that increased contributions would result in blessings.

However, I think that Mortal Man deserves a little more understanding. Certainly he is more aware of how things are going in his ward than anyone here and maybe there is a certain element of misinformation that he understands is taking place that is not coming through in the message board format (like that ever happens).

[juliann]

Ok, so I have a question.

There have been several times when I have given the Bishop a check and asked that it go to help a specific family in our ward.

What happens to the funds in situations like this?

I've done this with a couple of bishopos. He gave cash to them to keep me anonymous. Would there be any reason to not give it to the family?

Back to the topic, this topic has to rank in the top ten of all time dumb gripes. I can't remember ever being told anything but I have never assumed money sat around in a ward. That seems counterintuitive given how our church works....and that we operate on stake levels. We have been told several times throughout the years that our ward is the only ward in the stake who pays more than required for our needs....which means the excess is going to those who don't. We don't throw parties with the excess and let our neighbors do without and we don't make them come over and pick up a couple of $20 bills when they need something. What a dopey thread.

[katherine the great]

I understand exactly why this would annoy some people. Ward members are not morons and Bishops should not assume that we can't understand this concept. I think he should not have said "Yes, every penny of the money stays in the ward" because that is not accurate. A more accurate thing to say would have been, "This money is for the use of our ward members who are in need and every penny of it will be made available to us when (and if) we need it." It's not that big of a deal, and I understand that the Bishop probably didn't want to put the teacher on the spot, but a little bit of clarification probably would have been good. Bishops do carry a very heavy load though, and this small discrepancy was probably not on the top of his list of things to think about.

[Deborah]

There have been several times when I have given the Bishop a check and asked that it go to help a specific family in our ward.

I don't know for a fact but I don't know why it wouldn't go to that specific family. At Christmas people often give a specific allocation to the bishop for needy families. We have had specific needs in our ward and were instructed to put monies for that purpose in the tithing envelope and write the description under other. I have asked the RS President to deliver something to a sister in our ward as I wanted to remain anonymous. I think the Bishop and clerks are very careful to allocate money properly.

[ERayR]

Anybody that thinks the money doesn't stay in the ward is crazy. The local bank account is a transfer account only but the Bishop keeps the fast offering money in his shoe so that he has it with him at all times, just in case.

What a ridiculous post. Of course the money is deposited in the church account and all wards draw on it as needed. If the needs of the ward equal what is given it is all used in the ward, if the needs are less it is not all used in the ward, if the needs are greater then more is used in the ward than is given.

Some of our friends sure have trouble with finances they don't contribute to. Wonder where their heart is.

[cinepro]

Hey Mortal Man, interesting situation.

It sounds to me like it's a difference in understanding between the theory of the situation, and the practical application.

Ultimately, I think the problem is that is that the Ward has a safety net from the stake ("problem" from a theoretical standpoint, obviously it's a good thing from a practical standpoint!). Sure, there is an accounting somewhere of how much Fast Offerings have been made for a ward, but practically speaking, the money comes from pooled resources. The question would then be "Where does the money run out?" If a stake reaches it's amount of Fast Offering donations, does it have to stop giving out money? If so, then it should be said that it is a stake pool. If a stake never runs out of money (meaning, it never has to tell a person that there just isn't any money, but instead can get more money from SLC, and this is true worldwide), then practically speaking, it is a worldwide pool for Fast Offering funds, and other than a number on a computer somewhere, it isn't really practical to say that the money is "kept in the ward".

But it also isn't practical to let people know that the Beverly Hills Mormons will be picking up their slack if payments out exceed donations, and some people might have mental friction against having their fast offerings going to an LDS 5,000 miles away, so it might not be a bad idea to make them think it all "stays in the ward".

[Honorentheos]

Regarding the distribution of Fast Offerings - I think any bishop or clerk who has been through a church audit can tell you they aren't exactly fun and there are pretty strict rules as to how the funds are used. The post where it was suggested that funds were used to pay cell phone bills, etc. may be true, but I would not want to be that bishop...

[mbh26]

But it also isn't practical to let people know that the Beverly Hills Mormons will be picking up their slack if payments out exceed donations, and some people might have mental friction against having their fast offerings going to an LDS 5,000 miles away, so it might not be a bad idea to make them think it all "stays in the ward".

From what I've learned in three different threads today, it seems obvious that the Lord purposely misleads people in an effort to produce the best results. I have no "gripe," with this. Perhaps it is the best way to do things. But the reaction of those who don't like the inaccuracy of a statement brought to light tells me more than anything. It definitely has helped me better understand how you define "right" and "wrong."

[Smackat]

Of course the money is deposited in the church account and all wards draw on it as needed.

This is where the problem is. It seems that most people do not understand this. They believe that the money is kept in a separate local account that the Bishop draws on, or just a cash reserve he keeps. I remember being told when I was a young adult, that the Bishop could only give out each month the same amount that was brought in. If members in the ward needed more, then he had to go to the Stake President, or to other Bishops and request to borrow money from their ward's FO donations, and there was no where else to go. If other Bishops in the Stake didn't have excess, then there was no help for that Bishop and his ward. Maybe this is how it was 20 or more years ago, but now it is different, and there is no reason why it can't be properly explained when it comes up.

When MM's Bishop was directly asked this, he could have easily explained it. KTG gave a great response. What is wrong with letting members know that there is one big fund Bishops draw on as needed, rather than thousands of individual ward funds. I understand the faith promoting aspects of believing this, and using it as a way to try to get members to be more generous. But why can't it be explained how it really works. For some, knowing that any excess of the ward goes to help members all over the world, would be a reason to be more generous.

I actually didn't understand this until just recently, but it wasn't faith shattering for me. I think it is something that many members just haven't thought through the practicalities of how the Church operates in the modern world.

[annewandering]

Deceive is intent to mislead or misinform. No one is trying to lie to anyone.

So if the money is in a bank in salt lake it is a lie to say it is in your ward? Personally I prefer the money is safe in the bank.

It comes down to the question of whether you trust people in the church with your money or not. If not, then don't give that money.

[annewandering]

The Lord doesn't mislead anyone. Why in the world would He? Peoples lack of understanding is not the Lord misleading them.

[LDSToronto]

When MM's Bishop was directly asked this, he could have easily explained it. KTG gave a great response. What is wrong with letting members know that there is one big fund Bishops draw on as needed, rather than thousands of individual ward funds. I understand the faith promoting aspects of believing this, and using it as a way to try to get members to be more generous. But why can't it be explained how it really works. For some, knowing that any excess of the ward goes to help members all over the world, would be a reason to be more generous.

Perhap the Bishop understood the importance of fast offerings more than we think - the administration the fast offering pales in importance when compared to the gospel principles that are carried out via fast offering. I'd be concerned if a bishop had to deny assistance to the needy because of the administravia, and I've never heard that to be the case. A bishop has full stewardship over fast offerings, and if we remember this, then does the money trail really matter?

I think we sometimes make the mistake of thinking that members really give a rat's buttock about these trivial matters, and Mortal-Man, I think you ought to feel a little shame in threatening to "expose" this to your ward.

H.

[clairc829]

Our Bishop used to tell the ward over the pulpit in Church (probably Priesthood meeting) that the ward consistently donated more than it needed in fast offerings and that the excess went first to the stake and then if the stake had excess on to the church headquarters to be used where needed. The economy has changed things since then and the ward pretty much uses all it gets at the moment.

I think it is a wonderful system and benefits both the giver and the receiver, temporally and spiritually.

Before the Church had the computer network it has now. Local wards did have separate bank accounts and things weren't handled like they are now, but the principle was the same just the way it was done was a little more work.

Communication is an amazing thing I'm not convinced anyone was trying to deceive anyone sometimes it is easy to say what you mean and have someone else hear something totally different, or at least understand it totally different than it was intended.