The Capital of the Comoros Islands is?

[No Touch]

That is a very misleading statement.

You know that there is debate on whether Manuscript Story is Manuscript Found...

Among most literate people, even among most literate anti-Mormons, there is no debate. There is only one Manuscript by Solomon Spaulding and it was found and published a hundred years ago and there is no evidence that another manuscript exists or ever existed. I would be surprised if there was even the slightest notion that two manuscripts existed before the one we know of was debunked.

[LifeOnaPlate]

But there is another manuscript! And if that one is found and shown to be utterly foreign to the Book of Mormon we can be sure there was a third manuscript. And so on.

[No Touch]

Maybe we should all give up and admit that Joseph Smith was an expert in African geography.

[Zakuska]

Hi LOAP,

I know, I should have bowed out of this thread, but I couldn't resist.

So.....why does the 1808 map list the island as Camora... Is there a reasonable explanation for this?

and note...I included the apologetic defence in the wiki link...

Okay...this....

Might be the explanation... http://www.answers.com/topic/comoros

Mary

I already answered this for you Abu.

The Portugues and the French called it that. Now that the colonie has been turned back to rightfull heirs thay have removed the fench/portugues name and now call it by its original Swahili/Arabic name... (it starts with a N )

The problem with your 1808 map is there is no Captial on it called Moroni. Moroni didn't become the Capital until, 1965. Also the correct spelling for Moroni is Muruni... So good luck finding a map or dime story novel with both names in/on it.

[John Williams]

To recap:

There's no possible connection in any way between Comoros/Moroni and Cumorah/Moroni. And Mary is a rabid anti-Mormon grasping at any straw, no matter how tenuous, to destroy other people's faith. Or she's a moron.

[thesometimesaint]

John W:

IIRC that would be Comoros/Muruni and ....

Also the Capital city of Muruni(Moroni) was nothing but a small obscure village when JS published the BoM.

I would never call her a moron, but maybe ill informed.

[ttribe]

To recap:

There's no possible connection in any way between Comoros/Moroni and Cumorah/Moroni. And Mary is a rabid anti-Mormon grasping at any straw, no matter how tenuous, to destroy other people's faith. Or she's a moron.

You have GOT to be kidding.

[Zakuska]

John W:

IIRC that would be Comoros/Muruni and ....

Also the Capital city of Muruni(Moroni) was nothing but a small obscure village when JS published the BoM.

I would never call her a moron, but maybe ill informed.

The French gave it the name Comores. Originaly it was called Ngazidja by the arabian/swahilli settlers. Since the french have abandoned the colony... the people have officaly declared the original name.

Heres a Google map of Muruni: (Which is the Arabic spelling of the town. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroni,_Comoros) Moroni is the french transliteration.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rls=...=1&ct=title

If anything... Cumorah shows the strong arabic influence prevelant in the BOM.

PS. If you look an an Ancient map of Yemen... the Mountian Ranges around Nephi's bountiful are called... Morian Cumar.

[Sevenbak]

Maybe we should all give up and admit that Joseph Smith was an expert in African geography.

He wasn't an expert, he just had access to that incredibly huge, expansive, well funded, stocked with all the knowledge of the world, Palmyra library.

[thesometimesaint]

Thanks for the info. I'm no expert on languages, and have hard enough time with my native tongue American English.

[LifeOnaPlate]

To recap:

There's no possible connection in any way between Comoros/Moroni and Cumorah/Moroni. And Mary is a rabid anti-Mormon grasping at any straw, no matter how tenuous, to destroy other people's faith. Or she's a moron.

Your recap, as it stands, is problematic in pretty much every way.

[charity]

I am surprised that Mary would make that bald-faced misstatement that Kidd was hung on Comoros. He wan't. He was hung in England. What was your source for that statement? Dare we imagine it was some anti-Mormon website? Scholars don't often make such foolish mistakes, but rabid anti's do all the time in their frantic attempts to do or say anything that will discredit anything Mormon.

[why me]

I think that I need to come to Mary's aid here. I know Mary and I don't believe that she had ill intent toward the lds church. But what did happen was this: she was a little impressed with her child and the information that he provided and she immediately posted a OP on the MADb to see what kind of responses she would get. But she meant no harm.

Now of course, apologists were aware of the coincidence and Mary posted from these sites too. And so, what she discovered has been around for some time. Now from the lds perspective, it could mean a bullseye for the lds church because of the book of mormon connection but for a critic, it would mean that JS coulda used geographical information for the book of mormon characters. It basically becomes a what came first game, the chicken or the egg.

But Mary has a good heart and she meant no harm.

The book of mormon is an interesting book because it has an interesting beginning. And also because it has several characters involved in its appearance when one includes the witnesses and the main player, JS. It is certainly a mindboggling event to be sure (its early beginnings) with critics and apolgogists just a little frustrated about it all because no one can prove it definitely false and no one can prove it definitely true.

But Mary is a good person. Now Mary, you need to be careful of the wouldas, couldas, and shouldas because people can be a little problematic in their defence when there may be such hypotheticals.

[LifeOnaPlate]

everyone needs to hug now

[Bernard Gui]

I know, I should have bowed out of this thread, but I couldn't resist.

So.....why does the 1808 map list the island as Camora... Is there a reasonable explanation for this?

So, how do you explain the place names I gave you from Latin American countries

that are supposedly in the general area the BoM events took place?

And do you still believe Spalding and Rigdon wrote the Book of Mormon? If so, why

are you trying to prove that Joseph Smith cribbed Moroni and Cumorah from Captain Kidd?

Bernard

[Abulafia]

THanks John! My thoughts exactly.

So, here's how I understand the situation as regards this 'non-issue'.

The islands as indicated by maps at least as early as 1808 were known as Comora, indeed English records of seas travels as early as the 1600's refer to them as such with the spelling variation of comoro

See: A General History and Collection of Voyages

and Travels, Vol. VIII., by Robert Kerr

FORMING A COMPLETE HISTORY OF THE ORIGIN AND PROGRESS

OF NAVIGATION, DISCOVERY, AND COMMERCE,

BY SEA AND LAND,

FROM THE EARLIEST AGES TO THE PRESENT TIME.

A Port on the Island was named Moroni, or Muruni and only in recent times became the capital of the Comoros. Most modern gazettes that I can find, suggest that Muruni had been its name since medieval times at least as early as the 10th Century AD

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392714/Moroni

and this from wiki;

Moroni (in Arabic موروني Mūrūnī) is the largest city of the Comoros and since 1958 has served as its capital. The city's estimated population in 2003 was 60,200 residents.[1] The city is located on the western coast of Grande Comore island. Moroni is served by the Prince Said Ibrahim International Airport (IATA airport code: HAH). There is also a harbour with regular transport to the African mainland and the other islands in the Comoros archipelago, as well as Madagascar and other Indian ocean islands. Exports include vanilla, cocoa, and coffee.

Captain Kidd was known to have visited the Comoros in 1696 and a third of his crew died there of cholera. He was known to have visited more than one island during his time there. From: Zanzibar It's History and Its Peoples, W H Ingram

(see P111)

The apologists suggest that it was unlikely that Joseph would have had access to maps of the time, but fail to address the Captain Kidd links with Comoros and Moroni, the purported knowledge of Joseph Smith Sr and his family of Captain Kidd - his various travels and exploits, and their proximity (in terms of where the Smith family lived) to one of the landing ports in Boston where Kidd sailed in order to seek protection from the governor, but was infact imprisoned before being sent home to England to be ignominiously hanged as a pirate rather than privateer. (see links already given also Richard Zacks, The Pirate Hunter, The True Story of Captain Kidd 2003)

Legends around Captain Kidd, buried treasure and his travels and exploits seem to have been well known around the Eastern Sea Board at the time Joseph Smith was a child - and that 'dime novels' which included Kidd's exploits is referenced by at least one early critic of Mormonism. Pomeroy Tucker.

As an aside, very early descriptions of Moroni in LDS lore refer to him as a treasure protector, a motif not disimilar to that used in various piracy stories (including those of Captain Kidd) that were doing the rounds at the time, and also appeared to be well known on the eastern seaboard. That this motif was referenced to is also not surprising because of Joseph Smith's family's links to treasure digging which appear to be well documented by contemporary sources.

All of which proves nothing, but if you are someone like me and have lost their faith in the divine origin of the Book of Mormon, is interesting in terms of looking for a naturalist explanation for the use of Moroni as protector of the plates, and some of the name usages in the Book of Mormon.

However, if the critics want to pick apart the Book of Mormon, the use of the terms Moroni, and Cumorah is small fry, indeed pretty insignificant in terms of other much larger and problematic issues in confirming its authenticity as an ancient book.

Mary

[Abulafia]

So, how do you explain the place names I gave you from Latin American countries

that are supposedly in the general area the BoM events took place?

And do you still believe Spalding and Rigdon wrote the Book of Mormon? If so, why

are you trying to prove that Joseph Smith cribbed Moroni and Cumorah from Captain Kidd?

Bernard

Hi Bernard

At the moment, like quite a few other people, from its number of views, I have been reading Dale's (and others) contributions on the website that shall not be named, as regards Book of Mormon origins.

I do tend to go with the idea that the Book of Mormon is of 19th Century Origin, but I think that the sources and people that contributed to it were varied, but probably included Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sydney Rigdon and unwittingly, Solomon Spalding.

The Book of Mormon origins thread led me to Brian Ready's 2001 Masters Thesis on William Whitsitt: Insights into Early Mormonism.

Reading Ready's thesis, I think I am coming to an appreciation not only of how the Book of Mormon was written, but actually 'why' it was written. Sydney's belief's in terms of their development through and out of Campbellite doctrine and practice is enlightening. I was particularly interested in Whitsitt's explanation of the disconnect between 2 Nephi 30, and then on to 31, and 33, in terms of theology. I think I am starting to understand the 'pious' aspects of the Book of Mormon (in terms of it's 19th Century origins) rather than just the 'fraudulent' aspects.

Mary

[why me]

Hi Bernard

At the moment, like quite a few other people, from its number of views, I have been reading Dale's (and others) contributions on the website that shall not be named, as regards Book of Mormon origins.

I do tend to go with the idea that the Book of Mormon is of 19th Century Origin, but I think that the sources and people that contributed to it were varied, but probably included Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sydney Rigdon and unwittingly, Solomon Spalding.

The Book of Mormon origins thread led me to Brian Ready's 2001 Masters Thesis on William Whitsitt: Insights into Early Mormonism.

Reading Ready's thesis, I think I am coming to an appreciation not only of how the Book of Mormon was written, but actually 'why' it was written. Sydney's belief's in terms of their development through and out of Campbellite doctrine and practice is enlightening. I was particularly interested in Whitsitt's explanation of the disconnect between 2 Nephi 30, and then on to 31, and 33, in terms of theology. I think I am starting to understand the 'pious' aspects of the Book of Mormon (in terms of it's 19th Century origins) rather than just the 'fraudulent' aspects.

Mary

Hello Mary,

I think that your problem is centered in Dale and his use of hypotheticals to prove points. And this is why I gave a warning about the wouldas, couldas, and shouldas that you are now engaged in. It becomes a very frustrating dialogue when a critic begins to use such hypotheticals. How should an apologist respond to a coulda? It is impossible to do so. And as you can see from the discussion from the other board about Sidney, no headway was made because the primary documented sources were lacking. But the hypos were prevalent.

No one can explain the witnesses away so easily. The most that a critic can do is to ignore them. And yet, we have 11 people who would swear on to a Captain Kidd type scenerio. It does seem a little crazy, don't you think?

And here we have Dale's problem: How to deal with the witnesses? You also seem to ignore the 11 that were involved, not to mention Emma etc. And so, how do we account for 13 or so people in on a fraud? And how do we account that not one of the witnesses ever denied their testimony of the book of mormon and the plates?

And it is here that we have the nut in the nutcracker which the critics just can't seem to crack.

[John Williams]

Your recap, as it stands, is problematic in pretty much every way.

Except that everything in the recap has been said by others on this thread.

[ttribe]

Hi Bernard

At the moment, like quite a few other people, from its number of views, I have been reading Dale's (and others) contributions on the website that shall not be named, as regards Book of Mormon origins.

I do tend to go with the idea that the Book of Mormon is of 19th Century Origin, but I think that the sources and people that contributed to it were varied, but probably included Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sydney Rigdon and unwittingly, Solomon Spalding.

The Book of Mormon origins thread led me to Brian Ready's 2001 Masters Thesis on William Whitsitt: Insights into Early Mormonism.

Reading Ready's thesis, I think I am coming to an appreciation not only of how the Book of Mormon was written, but actually 'why' it was written. Sydney's belief's in terms of their development through and out of Campbellite doctrine and practice is enlightening. I was particularly interested in Whitsitt's explanation of the disconnect between 2 Nephi 30, and then on to 31, and 33, in terms of theology. I think I am starting to understand the 'pious' aspects of the Book of Mormon (in terms of it's 19th Century origins) rather than just the 'fraudulent' aspects.

Mary

Given your stubborn clinging to the "BoM is a fraud" theory - please, then, account for the atypical behaviors of the so-called conspirators. Namely, as I mentioned in a previous post (Post Link):

"...it should be no problem for you to provide us an example of conspirators to commit fraud, who: 1) although the interpersonal relationships amongst the conspirators had completely collapsed; 2) although there was no apparent ongoing benefit to all the conspirators years later; and 3) who were threatened with physical harm - never, not once, admitted to any of the conspracies which have been alleged to occur among JS, OC, SR, MH, et al?"

[Abulafia]

Given your stubborn clinging to the "BoM is a fraud" theory - please, then, account for the atypical behaviors of the so-called conspirators. Namely, as I mentioned in a previous post (Post Link):

"...it should be no problem for you to provide us an example of conspirators to commit fraud, who: 1) although the interpersonal relationships amongst the conspirators had completely collapsed; 2) although there was no apparent ongoing benefit to all the conspirators years later; and 3) who were threatened with physical harm - never, not once, admitted to any of the conspracies which have been alleged to occur among JS, OC, SR, MH, et al?"

Hi ttribe, look for me, the alternative is a faith based belief in the Book of Mormon based on prayer and testimony. I've already stated that I lost my faith many years ago (as well as a testimony).

As for me clinging to the 'Bom is a fraud' theory. What is the alternative? I like Whitsitt's approach because he seems to appreciate the theological impetus for the Book of Mormon which he argues came out of European Protestantism and a particular brand of European Protestantism at that. For me, understanding the pious aspects of the development of the theology contained within the Book of Mormon (particularly with regards to Sydney Rigdon's role) is a step in the right direction, and perhaps I ought to read it again in that light and actually gain a deeper appreciation of it rather than dismissing it as fraud.

For the answer to your statement about providing an example of 'conspirators to commit fraud' this has come up on the website that shall not be named, and I think is much better addressed there by 'scholars' who have access to and knowledge of many more sources than me. Amongst them Dale B, and Art Vanick.

Mary

[ttribe]

For the answer to your statement about providing an example of 'conspirators to commit fraud' this has come up on the website that shall not be named, and I think is much better addressed there by 'scholars' who have access to and knowledge of many more sources than me. Amongst them Dale B, and Art Vanick.

Perhaps you'll supply a link to their "research"? It's funny, I hold two certifications in fraud examination and forensics and can't think of one example from all of my research....

[Abulafia]

Perhaps you'll supply a link to their "research"? It's funny, I hold two certifications in fraud examination and forensics and can't think of one example from all of my research....

I don't think I am supposed to link to the thread over at the website that shall not be named. But Dale, I felt, answers Why me, quite well.

Mary

[ttribe]

I don't think I am supposed to link to the thread over at the website that shall not be named. But Dale, I felt, answers Why me, quite well.

Mary

Well, since I don't care to search through the muck over there, I guess we are at an impasse.

[LeSellers]

Mary is a rabid anti-Mormon grasping at any straw, no matter how tenuous, to destroy other people's faith. Or she's a moron.

Don't know Mary from a bale of hay, but the two positions you posit are not mutually exclusive.

We have all seen many examples of moronic anti-Mormons â?? some within the sight of my message.

Lehi