Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Okay, so my 10 year old has decided to learn all 195 countries of the world, (and has done a pretty fine job of it, if I say so myself)I start to talk about the Comoros Islands and he pipes up...'Oh the capital of the Comoros Islands is Moroni'Now, I am taking his word for it. I havn't bothered to check.Coincidence or not? Hill Comorah and Moroni..?Linking into this. I was mentioning the Comoros Islands as I was reading thishttp://www.solomonspalding.info/pdf/roper%20rebuttal.pdfWhich is Art Vanick's rebuttal of Matt Ropers farms piece on his (et al.) book called the Spalding Enigma.For me, this rebuttal is pretty damning.Has Matt Roper or anyone in the apologetic community responded at all?Mary
why me Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 The Spaulding/Rigdon theory has been much discussed lately. However, there is still no connection between all the parties who would have needed to be in on the fraud. Like I said on the other board, there would need to have been at least 13 people in on the fraud if Sidney wrote the book of mormon. We have the 11 witnesses, plus Sidney, Joseph, and then Emma, and lucy smith as possible fraudsters. And this is the problem. The Spaulding theory is not just about JS and Sidney. It is also about a host of other people who would need to be involved and yet, still keep their mouths shut about their involvement. Now if it were just Sidney and Joseph, I think that the lds church would be in a pickle jar about possible conspiracy theories. But how to explain the other characters if a person is a critic?
mnn727 Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Sidney Rigdon, prominate minister, comes up with a scheme to start a new religion, writes the Book of Mormom and then turns everything over to a teenage farm boy to pull it off. hmmmm
why me Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Hello Abu!Read this and weep!! http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/bom/comoros.html
Pepcigirl Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Moroni is the capital of the Comoros Islands. Originally, it was a port for Arab merchants, and became capital of Grande Comore (Njazidja) 1876, 47 years after the Book of Mormon was printed, and 32 years after the death of Joseph Smith."It was founded by Arabic-speaking settlers, possibly as early as the 10th century AD. Dzaoudzi, the principal city of the island of Mayotte, was the original administrative capital of Comoros, but Moroni succeeded it in 1958."(Encyclopaedia Britannica - Moroni). Moroni remained the captial of the Comoros Islands after independence from France in 1975:-The following publications were available in Joseph Smith's day - whether anything is mentioned about Comoros and Moroni:Mucullock's Universal Gazateer, 2 vols (1843-4), 2257 pages of double columned miniscule print. no reference to Comoro Islands or Moroni Morris' Universal Gazateer 1821 (831 pp), no mention of either Comoros or Moroni Brookes Gazateer: 1794 ed = Comora on p. 400 1819 ed = Comora 1835 ed = Comoro p 214 1843 ed = ComoroNo mention in any of them about a city called Moroni. (FAIR)
Nevo Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 For me, this rebuttal is pretty damning.Has Matt Roper or anyone in the apologetic community responded at all?MaryHave you read Roper's article yet? I'd say it's even more damning (as is Brodie's appendix on the Spalding-Rigdon theory).What parts of Vanick's rebuttal did you find convincing?
No Touch Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Okay, so my 10 year old has decided to learn all 195 countries of the world, (and has done a pretty fine job of it, if I say so myself)I start to talk about the Comoros Islands and he pipes up...'Oh the capital of the Comoros Islands is Moroni'Now, I am taking his word for it. I havn't bothered to check.Coincidence or not? Hill Comorah and Moroni..?Linking into this. I was mentioning the Comoros Islands as I was reading thishttp://www.solomonspalding.info/pdf/roper%20rebuttal.pdfWhich is Art Vanick's rebuttal of Matt Ropers farms piece on his (et al.) book called the Spalding Enigma.For me, this rebuttal is pretty damning.Has Matt Roper or anyone in the apologetic community responded at all?MaryI am well aware that the capital of Comoros is Moroni, but are you serious in trying to argue this as actual evidence to invalidate the Book of Mormon? I ask sincerely because to actually suggest this sounds like a joke to me.
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Have you read Roper's article yet? I'd say it's even more damning (as is Brodie's appendix on the Spalding-Rigdon theory).What parts of Vanick's rebuttal did you find convincing?My thoughts exactly. Abulafia, of all the criticisms to hitch your wagon on, the whole Spalding thing ought to be near the bottom of the list.
ebeddoulos Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 About 200 miles off the coast of Northern Mozambique in eastern Africa, lies the small island nation of Comoros, whose administrative capital is called Moroni. These names are the same or very similar to names found in the Book of Mormon. There is little probability that Joseph Smith ever saw a map of the Comoros Islands. Even if he had, the chances of Joseph finding Moroni within the pages of the gazeteer approach the probability of zero. The gazetteers of the time often failed to mention Comoros and none of the gazeteers have anything to say about Moroni. Therefore any connection between a map and and the Book of Mormon names Cumorah and Moroni is mere speculation at best since it lacks any compelling evidence. -Title Relevant ContentsMucullock's Universal Gazateer, 2 vols (1843-4) 2257 pages of double columned miniscule print, with no reference to Comoros Islands or Moroni.Morris' Universal Gazateer (1821) 831 pages, no mention of Comoros or MoroniBrookes Gazateer - 1794 edition Comora on p. 400, no mention of Moroni1819 edition Comora, no mention of Moroni1835 edition Comoro on p. 214, no mention of Moroni1843 edition Comoro, no mention of Moroni(FairWiki, â??Comoros Islands and Moroniâ?, retrieved February 10, 2009, http://en.fairmormon.org/Comoros_Islands_and_Moroni)Provide at least some evidence for your latest pet theory. Do a little reasearch. How about showing a map, printed and available to Joseph Smith prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon, which has the the villiage of Moroni on it.You will have some difficulty doing so. It was not until the mid-20th century that Moroni was finally made the nations capital. Prior to that, the capital was Dzaoudzi on the island of Mayotte. Prior to that the Comoros Islands were a French protectorate administered from Madegascar. Prior to that, Moroni was the home base of one of Sultan Said Ali on of seven sultans in the Comoros.â??Up to the late nineteenth century the Comoros were divided into seven sultanates. Sultan Said Ali of Grande Comore struck a deal with the French in the in the 1870s, and by 1886 the entire archipelago had become a French protectorate, administered from Madagascar. In the early twentieth century, French interest in the Comoros increased: the islands served as a counterweight to British influence in East Africa. In addition, many Comorians fought for France in the Second World War. Said Mohammed Cheik became the first popularly elected president in 1958. Between 1962 and 1964 Cheik moved the capital from Dzaoudzi, on Mayotte, to Moroni.â? (Tiyambe Zeleza and ****son Eyoh, â??Encyclopedia of Twentieth-century African Historyâ?, New York: Routledge, [2003], pg. 116)But is it coincidence or could there be an historical connection between Comoros Islands and the ancient Nephites? If there is a connection (and that is a very big if) how that may have happened is easy understand when you know the history of the island. The Comoros Islands were first settled by people from Polynesia.â??The Comoro Islands were settled by Polynesians in the first millennium and then by Arab traders.â? (Jennifer Speake, â??Literature of Travel and Explorationâ?, New York: Fitzroy Dearborn, [2003], pg. 611)The Book of Mormon tells the story of Hagoth who built ships and then sailed off, never to be heard from again.â??And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward. And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year. And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward. And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not.â? (Alma 63:5-8 )It comes as no great surprise to me that names found on an island settled by Polynesians are similar to names found in the Book of Mormon. Many Latter-day Saints believe that the Polynesians are the direct descendants of these ancient Nephite mariners. â??In conclusion it seems fair to state that although the Church has no official, published declaration on the origin of the Polynesians, there have been enough semi-official statements by prophets of the Lord to leave little doubt that the Church believes that the Polynesians are direct blood relatives of Lehi's colony and that Hagoth's lost ships provide at least one connection between the Americas and Polynesia. This is further supported by patriarchal blessings given to the members of the Church among these people and by oral traditions. The brief account of Hagoth recorded in the book of Alma is important to an understanding of the blessings given to the descendants of Joseph, as the inhabitants of the isles of the sea.â? (Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., â??Alma, the Testimony of the Wordâ?, Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, [1992], pg 260-261)Therefore, I, as a Latter-day Saint have no difficulty with a city called Moroni on an island called Comoros which was first settled by Polynesians. However, if you wish to
John Williams Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 So, the short answer is that it's mere coincidence. Sort of puts some of the BofM bullseyes into perspective.
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 John W:Maybe yes, maybe no. Depending on the coincidence.
John Williams Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 John W:Maybe yes, maybe no. Depending on the coincidence.Hence the word "some." I was thinking in particular of the appearance of Paanchi and Pahoran, which are said to be variations of Egyptian names. That seems to be about the statistical equivalent of the coincident of Moroni and Cumorah. At least it does to me.
robuchan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 The Spaulding/Rigdon theory has been much discussed lately. However, there is still no connection between all the parties who would have needed to be in on the fraud. Like I said on the other board, there would need to have been at least 13 people in on the fraud if Sidney wrote the book of mormon. We have the 11 witnesses, plus Sidney, Joseph, and then Emma, and lucy smith as possible fraudsters. And this is the problem. The Spaulding theory is not just about JS and Sidney. It is also about a host of other people who would need to be involved and yet, still keep their mouths shut about their involvement. Now if it were just Sidney and Joseph, I think that the lds church would be in a pickle jar about possible conspiracy theories. But how to explain the other characters if a person is a critic?The conspiracy aspect of it is the most damaging. But I don't think it has to be as wide spread as you say. It could have been limited to Oliver and Sidney. If you don't believe in the revealed gospel you probably think something was fishy with those two anyway, given the visions they claim to have participated in.
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 The conspiracy aspect of it is the most damaging. But I don't think it has to be as wide spread as you say. It could have been limited to Oliver and Sidney. If you don't believe in the revealed gospel you probably think something was fishy with those two anyway, given the visions they claim to have participated in.Tell me - what experience do you have with the behavioral patterns of conspirators to commit fraud?
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 I am well aware that the capital of Comoros is Moroni, but are you serious in trying to argue this as actual evidence to invalidate the Book of Mormon? I ask sincerely because to actually suggest this sounds like a joke to me.Hey. I only learned this this morning, cause my 10 year old shouted it out to me...I was quite taken aback! He also told me the capital of Chad is N'bjenena. Obviously that didn't catch my attention in the same way.I've checked around the net..(since it's the only source I have), and the suggestion seems to be that Comoros was originally Camorah, and that though Moroni didn't become the capital until recently, it has been around since the middle ages.Suggestions seem to be that it was actually reasonably common knowledge at the time (early 1800's) even if it didn't show up (Moroni) on gazeteers.P. Tucker (Vogel vol 3, pp. 93-94):"Joseph ... had learned to read comprehensively ... [reading] works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the 'dime novels' of the present day. The stories of Stephen Buroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions."Apparantly (and someone MUCH more knowledgable than me in this subject can correct me if I am wrong) Pirate Stories, such as those of Captain Kidd would have included lots of Arabic names, like Moroni/Maroni, and Camorah.This also fits in with Joseph's treasure digging activities?It certainly isn't impossible, or even unlikely that he was unaware of these names, in that context?As for Roper's piece. Yep I had a go at reading all 134 pages.His main argument seems to be that Hurlbert was a 'bad man' so can't be trusted and that he lead witnesses, and that Manuscript Story IS Manuscript Found and all those witnesses just got it mixed up. He says Fawn Brodie didn't accept the theory, but then doesn't explain that Fawn Brodie didn't use all the possible sources she 'could' have used.He says Campbell originally disagreed with the Spalding claims, yet doesn't mention that he later changed his mind.I wasn't impressed by Jesse Haven's information gleaned from interview , nor the suggestion that Pratt's early missionary activities were responsbile for people recollecting specific Book of Mormon names...Anyways, I asked if there was ever a response to their rebuttal as referenced above. Would genuinely be interested. Particularly in the light of the recent word print study that supports a Spalding, Rigdon, Cowdery authorship of at least 'parts' of the Book of Mormon...Mary
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Suggestions seem to be that it was actually reasonably common knowledge at the time (early 1800's) even if it didn't show up (Moroni) on gazeteers.And you buy those "suggestions"? It's not even common knowledge now!
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 And you buy those "suggestions"? It's not even common knowledge now!Well I've just given some evidence that Joseph read about Captain Kidd... Here's some more information...on the stories of Captain Kidd..Captain Kidd, the famous pirate, was rumored to have buried his legendary treasure on the East Coast of the United States, and many â??treasure seekersâ? were digging for it during Joseph Smith's youth. Capt. Kidd had been hanged in 1701 for crimes committed near a town called Moroni on the island of Camora. (The spelling of Cumorah in the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, incidentally, was Camorah. ) It has been suggested that Joseph Smith may have subconsciously associated the word Moroni and the word Camora, both of which were connected with buried treasure, as were the buried gold plates of the Book of Mormon. Of course that can never be proven â??â?? but it is an interesting coincidence.http://mormonism-proandcon.org/id10.htmlMary
Eguzkitanedan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Well I've just given some evidence that Joseph read about Captain Kidd... Here's some more information...on the stories of Captain Kidd..http://mormonism-proandcon.org/id10.htmlMaryKidd was hanged in London and his rotting body was put on display. You're showing a rotten knowledge of pirate history.
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Abulafia:Tenuous at best. Most likely superficial and erroneous.
No Touch Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 And you buy those "suggestions"? It's not even common knowledge now!Beat me to it. 200 years ago it wasn't even a capital and even today I guarantee the vast majority of Americans have never heard of it. And I'm sure the splits get worse if we were to look at rural populations without secondary or post-secondary educations.I mean seriously, if you want to believe that the Church is false that is up to you, but seriously, do your self a favor and don't just believe every crackpot statement that seems to agree with you on it. The names of random African capitals, let alone random African cities and villages, is not and has not ever been common knowledge amongst Americans. Heck, even in our "modern globalized world" I would bet that the majority of Americans are incapable of naming more than 5 cities in Africa off the top of their heads, let alone rural folks 200 years ago and let alone as small and random a place as Moroni.If it had been common knowledge amongst any sector of society at that time then you would have expected someone to bring it up within, say, the first 50 years after the Book of Mormon was published in one of those big anti-Mormon publications.Let me say again, you're entitled to disbelieve if you choose, but save yourself some time by not wasting it on nonsense like Spalding theory which was debunked long long ago when the Manuscript was found and published.
selek Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Well I've just given some evidence that Joseph read about Captain Kidd... Here's some more information...on the stories of Captain Kidd..http://mormonism-proandcon.org/id10.htmlMaryNo......you've given evidence that an anti-Mormon zealot with a shaky understanding of basic historical facts and a desire to turn a quick buck alleges that Joseph might/possibly/maybe coulda read about Captain Kidd.Kidd was hanged in London and his rotting body was put on display. You're showing a rotten knowledge of pirate history.No. She's showing a credulous belief in an anti-Mormon zealot with a rotten knowledge of pirate history.Her mistake was swallowing the bilge without exercising the same degree of skepticism she reserves for all things Mormon.
phaedrus ut Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 So, the short answer is that it's mere coincidence. Sort of puts some of the BofM bullseyes into perspective.Correct as usual, King Friday.
Eguzkitanedan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 No......you've given that an anti-Mormon zealot with a shaky understanding of basic historical facts alleges that Joseph might/possibly/maybe coulda read about Captain Kidd.No. She's showing a credulous belief in an anti-Mormon zealot with a rotten knowledge of pirate history.Her mistake was swallowing the bilge without exercising the same degree of skepticism she reserves for all things Mormon.Ah, you're right, it was a quote from a crap source. I had just finished reading a book about pirates on Sunday evening.
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Correct as usual, King Friday.Only when each are measured on their own merits, actually, Mr. Rogers. Of course, you're only trying to score rhetorical points here, so we can safely dismiss your comment.
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