robuchan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Tell me - what experience do you have with the behavioral patterns of conspirators to commit fraud?A lot. Why do you ask?
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 A lot. Why do you ask?I suggest unilaterally applying your own experiences to all experiences, imo.
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Well I've just given some evidence that Joseph read about Captain Kidd... Here's some more information...on the stories of Captain Kidd..http://mormonism-proandcon.org/id10.htmlMaryThat's proof of nothing and there is zero "evidence" that JS had been reading about Capt. Kidd. Try again when you have something that actually resembles evidence and not speculation based on coincidence.
AndyOne Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Ah, you're right, it was a quote from a crap source. I had just finished reading a book about pirates on Sunday evening.Did it include a reference to Captain Kidd being in Comoros in 1697?
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 That's proof of nothing and there is zero "evidence" that JS had been reading about Capt. Kidd. Try again when you have something that actually resembles evidence and not speculation based on coincidence.I think it gives us some indication of Abulafia's reliability on sources, etc.
phaedrus ut Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Only when each are measured on their own merits, actually, Mr. Rogers. Of course, you're only trying to score rhetorical points here, so we can safely dismiss your comment.Actually I'm not trying to score rhetorical points at all, just a entertaining statement of agreement. I do however agree that the Moroni, Comoros connection is just coincidence. However a coincidence in magnitude much greater than that of something like NHM.Phaedrus
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Actually I'm not trying to score rhetorical points at all, just a entertaining statement of agreement. I do however agree that the Moroni, Comoros connection is just coincidence. However a coincidence in magnitude much greater than that of something like NHM.Phaedrus"I'm not trying to score rhetorical points," he said as he tried to score more.
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 A lot. Why do you ask?Really? Care to elaborate on what kind of "experience"? Furthermore, it should be no problem for you to provide us an example of conspirators to commit fraud, who: 1) although their interpersonal relationships amongst the conspirators had completely collapsed; 2) although there was no apparent ongoing benefit to all the conspirators; and 3) who were threatened with physical harm - never, not once, admitted to any of the conspracies which have been alleged to occur among JS, OC, SR, MH, et al?
Eguzkitanedan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Did it include a reference to Captain Kidd being in Comoros in 1697?I returned it to the local library yesterday, but I think it might have. It did talk about him being in the Indian Ocean.
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 No......you've given evidence that an anti-Mormon zealot with a shaky understanding of basic historical facts and a desire to turn a quick buck alleges that Joseph might/possibly/maybe coulda read about Captain Kidd.No. She's showing a credulous belief in an anti-Mormon zealot with a rotten knowledge of pirate history.Her mistake was swallowing the bilge without exercising the same degree of skepticism she reserves for all things Mormon.Oh come on....This is genuinely interesting. As for me, beyond the Hornagolds which are in my ancestral line, nope I know nothing about Captain Kidd.Please enlighten? I'll do some more checking... It's hard to find a non - mormon/critical of mormonism source on the internet...that deal with this...Any suggestions. I'm willing to learn...Mary
Eguzkitanedan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Oh come on....This is genuinely interesting. As for me, beyond the Hornagolds which are in my ancestral line, nope I know nothing about Captain Kidd.Please enlighten? I'll do some more checking... It's hard to find a non - mormon/critical of mormonism source on the internet...that deal with this...Any suggestions. I'm willing to learn...MaryRead this book.
robuchan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Really? Care to elaborate on what kind of "experience"? Furthermore, it should be no problem for you to provide us an example of conspirators to commit fraud, who: 1) although their interpersonal relationships amongst the conspirators had completely collapsed; 2) although there was no apparent ongoing benefit to all the conspirators; and 3) who were threatened with physical harm - never, not once, admitted to any of the conspracies which have been alleged to occur among JS, OC, SR, MH, et al?First, I need to check on the statute of limitations for toilet papering before I give you specific details.Second, I think you misinterpreted my first sentence from earlier post.The conspiracy aspect of it is the most damaging.This is meant to read the conspiracy aspect of the Spaulding-Rigdon theory is the most damaging aspect of the theory...meaning the difficult of maintaining a conspiracy make the theory difficult to accept.
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 Read this book.THanks.... Question...Why does Pomeroy Tucker believe that Joseph is reading dime novels that included stories of Captain Kidd? Where does he get his evidence from?Here's a link I found on William Kidd....interesting character. He did live for a while in New York...so it isn't unreasonable (Tucker certainly knew of the stories to mention them) that Joseph would have known about the legendary character?Kidd sailed initially from London to New York, losing a large portion of his crew to the HMS Duchess, who commandeered them for the Royal Navy. This forced Kidd to replenish his crew in New York City, and he undoubtedly picked up many criminals and several pirates here. Kidd underwent many more misfortunes â?? upon sailing for the Cape of Good Hope in 1696, his lost a third of his crew to cholera.http://www.achievements.co.uk/articles/william_kidd.htmlWiki suggests that he lost his crew on the Comoros Islands...
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 First, I need to check on the statute of limitations for toilet papering before I give you specific details.Second, I think you misinterpreted my first sentence from earlier post.This is meant to read the conspiracy aspect of the Spaulding-Rigdon theory is the most damaging aspect of the theory...meaning the difficult of maintaining a conspiracy make the theory difficult to accept.Yep...I did misunderstand you.
No Touch Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Oh come on....This is genuinely interesting. As for me, beyond the Hornagolds which are in my ancestral line, nope I know nothing about Captain Kidd.Please enlighten? I'll do some more checking... It's hard to find a non - mormon/critical of mormonism source on the internet...that deal with this...Any suggestions. I'm willing to learn...MaryDoes wikipedia count as a non-Mormon site?Captain KiddCheck the place of death.
wenglund Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Let me see if I understand the arguments correctly:1) If a handful of names within an alleged history book can be found in a gazetteer published prior to the alleged history book, then the alleged history book may be deemed fictional along with all the stories and characters contained therein.In 2006, Patricia Brady published a book called Martha Washington: An American Life. The book speaks not only of Martha Washington, but also of George Washington, her husband. However, prior to 2006, there had been numerous gazetteers published containing a map of state that is called Washington. Amazingly enough, if one looks towards the middle of the map of that state, one will find two cities: Martha and George. Coincidence? Well...according to the "logic" above, Patricia Brady's book may reasonably be considered as fiction and George and Martha Washington never existed.2) If gazetteers existed prior to a persons 25th birthday, it is likely that that person has read at least one of those gazetteers and is familiar with all the names of various geographic locations in that gazetteer.Since Abulafia first learned today that there was an Island called Comoroh with a capital of Moroni, then according to the "logic" above, Abulafia must be younger than 25.Does this make sense to anyone but Abulafia and the website she has used as a resource?Thanks, =Wade Englund-
AndyOne Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 From wiki, we also learn that "...a third of his crew soon perished on the Comoros due to an outbreak of cholera."
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 Let me see if I understand the arguments correctly:1) If a handful of names within an alleged history book can be found in a gazetteer published prior to the alleged history book, then the alleged history book may be deemed fictional along with all the stories and characters contained therein.In 2006, Patricia Brady published a book called Martha Washington: An American Life. The book speaks not only of Martha Washington, but also of George Washington, her husband. However, prior to 2006, there had been numerous gazetteers published containing a map of state that is called Washington. Amazingly enough, if one looks towards the middle of the map of that state, one will find two cities: Martha and George. Coincidence? Well...according to the "logic" above, Patricia Brady's book may reasonably be considered as fiction and George and Martha Washington never existed.2) If gazetteers existed prior to a persons 25th birthday, it is likely that that person has read at least one of those gazetteers and is familiar with all the names of various geographic locations in that gazetteer.Since Abulafia first learned today that there was an Island called Comoroh with a capital of Moroni, then according to the "logic" above, Abulafia must be younger than 25.Does this make sense to anyone but Abulafia and the website she has used as a resource?Thanks, =Wade Englund-Ah heck Wade. I was expecting better from you...To follow up on Pomeroy Tucker's reference to the dime novels that included stories of Captain Kidd....Are any of these still in existence? They obviously were when Tucker was referencing them?Mary
John Williams Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Does this make sense to anyone but Abulafia and the website she has used as a resource?Thanks, =Wade Englund-Given that you've misinterpreted Mary's point (perhaps intentionally?), it's not surprising that you can't make sense of it.
No Touch Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 THanks.... Question...Why does Pomeroy Tucker believe that Joseph is reading dime novels that included stories of Captain Kidd? Where does he get his evidence from?Here's a link I found on William Kidd....interesting character. He did live for a while in New York...so it isn't unreasonable (Tucker certainly knew of the stories to mention them) that Joseph would have known about the legendary character?http://www.achievements.co.uk/articles/william_kidd.htmlWiki suggests that he lost his crew on the Comoros Islands...What is unreasonable is the idea that ONLY Joseph Smith heard the names Comoros and Moroni in those very popular stories. This being a famous and legendary character, one would think that if these stories were so popular that someone other than Joseph Smith would've been familiar enough with these names and would have spotted them in the Book of Mormon. I find it unthinkable that if this were the source of the names in the Book of Mormon that it would not have been brought to light by contemporaries of Joseph Smith that preached against him.
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 Okay, to answer my own question on whether Joseph might have read dime novels that discussed Captain Kidd...Here's what I could findFrom DeWitts Stories of the Sea. Robert M. DeWitt No'x 1 - 16 1860's. Authors include J. H. Ingraham. Pirate and Sea Stories which may have seen earlier publicationfrom: The Dime Novel Companion. A Source Book. J Randolph Cox.(Havn't checked all names...)What is unreasonable is the idea that ONLY Joseph Smith heard the names Comoros and Moroni in those very popular stories. This being a famous and legendary character, one would think that if these stories were so popular that someone other than Joseph Smith would've been familiar enough with these names and would have spotted them in the Book of Mormon. I find it unthinkable that if this were the source of the names in the Book of Mormon that it would not have been brought to light by contemporaries of Joseph Smith that preached against him.Isn't that exactly what Pomeroy Tucker did?Sorry if I misunderstand?Mary
selek Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Okay, to answer my own question on whether Joseph might have read dime novels that discussed Captain Kidd...Here's what I could findFrom DeWitts Stories of the Sea. Robert M. DeWitt No'x 1 - 16 1860's. Authors include J. H. Ingraham. Pirate and Sea Stories which may have seen earlier publicationfrom: The Dime Novel Companion. A Source Book. J Randolph Cox.(Havn't checked all names...)MaryIsn't that exactly what Pomeroy Tucker did?Sorry if I misunderstand?MaryWhy check the names?All of the stories in this anthology were published in the 1860's: thirty years too late to have been an impact on the young Joseph Smith.
Nevo Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 That's proof of nothing and there is zero "evidence" that JS had been reading about Capt. Kidd. Try again when you have something that actually resembles evidence and not speculation based on coincidence.Pomeroy Tucker, a Palmyra acquaintance of Joseph Smith, claimed that Joseph had read stories about Captain Kidd (source). Although Tucker is somewhat hostile, Richard Lloyd Anderson has noted that "most of Tucker's unattributed particulars of the Smiths' early Palmyra life are probably based on his observation" (see Anderson, "Circumstantial Confirmation of the First Vision Through Reminiscences," BYU Studies 9, no. 3 [1969]: 382). Tucker, incidentally, worked at the Grandin press (and bookshop).Another Palmyra resident, Philetus B. Spear, claimed circa 1873 that Joseph "had for a library a copy of the 'Arabian Nights,' stories of Captain Kidd, and a few novels" (Marion Enterprise [Newark, NY], 28 September 1923, 43:1; cited in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 3:130). For what it's worth
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Pomeroy Tucker, a Palmyra acquaintance of Joseph Smith, claimed that Joseph had read stories about Captain Kidd (source). Although Tucker is somewhat hostile, Richard Lloyd Anderson has noted that "most of Tucker's unattributed particulars of the Smiths' early Palmyra life are probably based on his observation" (see Anderson, "Circumstantial Confirmation of the First Vision Through Reminiscences," BYU Studies 9, no. 3 [1969]: 382). Tucker, incidentally, worked at the Grandin press (and bookshop).Another Palmyra resident, Philetus B. Spear, claimed circa 1873 that Joseph "had for a library a copy of the 'Arabian Nights,' stories of Captain Kidd, and a few novels" (Marion Enterprise [Newark, NY], 28 September 1923, 43:1; cited in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 3:130). For what it's worthIMO, not worth much. Add to it Lucy's statements about JS not being prone to reading, etc. and the late date of the second reference, Philastus, who just as likely heard about the Cpt. Kidd thing from Tucker or another critical source.
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Pomeroy Tucker, a Palmyra acquaintance of Joseph Smith, claimed that Joseph had read stories about Captain Kidd (source). Although Tucker is somewhat hostile, Richard Lloyd Anderson has noted that "most of Tucker's unattributed particulars of the Smiths' early Palmyra life are probably based on his observation" (see Anderson, "Circumstantial Confirmation of the First Vision Through Reminiscences," BYU Studies 9, no. 3 [1969]: 382). Tucker, incidentally, worked at the Grandin press (and bookshop).Another Palmyra resident, Philetus B. Spear, claimed circa 1873 that Joseph "had for a library a copy of the 'Arabian Nights,' stories of Captain Kidd, and a few novels" (Marion Enterprise [Newark, NY], 28 September 1923, 43:1; cited in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 3:130). For what it's worthBut no mention of what "stories" and what information might have been in them.
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