The Capital of the Comoros Islands is?

[Zakuska]

Ok soo apparently Moroni is about 500 years old...

Moroni

Moroni, the capital of the Federal Islamic Republic of the Comoros, is on the western side of Grande Comore island. In 2000, Moroni's estimated population was 36,000. The central part of Moroni consists of the old town, in which construction was started about 500 years ago. The buildings are of volcanic rock, and the old town, still vibrant, reminds one of the "casbahs" of northern Africa.

Moroni was declared the capital of the Comoros in 1975. Despite extensive residential construction in recent years, Moroni remains a small, slow-paced capital beautifully situated between Mt. Kartala and the ocean. The city has several small industries, most of which manufacture soft drinks, processed and distilled oils, metal and wood products, or cement. Moroni also serves as the Comoros' main port from which vanilla, coffee, and cacao are exported. An airport, Iconi International Airport, is located in southern Moroni.

But it didn't become the capitol until 1962-1975. What are the chances Joseph Smith ever heard of the place? Since Mayotte and Iconi where the Capitols in that time frame?

[No Touch]

Can anyone find a Captain Kidd story published before the Book of Mormon that mentions the city of Moroni? Is there any verifiable connection between the history of Captain Kidd and Moroni (rather than simply a connection to the Comoros)?

Again, if I suppose that there was and that it was lost, I still need to explain how not one single person who read those stories ever came upon a Book of Mormon and told someone "that crazy boy got those names out of this Captain Kidd story!", given that these stories were supposedly popular in that region and community.

[Bernard Gui]

Morontepeque, El Salvador

Morona, Ecuador

Moron, Mexico

Moroneari, Mexico

Camoroa, Brazil,

Camara Ecuador

Camaro, El Salvador

Camoa, Mexico

River Maroni, Suriname

Camorra, Honduras

Pachum, Guatemala

Pachumja, Guatemala

What does it all mean?

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

Can anyone find a Captain Kidd story published before the Book of Mormon that mentions the city of Moroni? Is there any verifiable connection between the history of Captain Kidd and Moroni (rather than simply a connection to the Comoros)?

Again, if I suppose that there was and that it was lost, I still need to explain how not one single person who read those stories ever came upon a Book of Mormon and told someone "that crazy boy got those names out of this Captain Kidd story!", given that these stories were supposedly popular in that region and community.

But if Spalding/Rigdon wrote the book, then they pinched the names from the good Captain, no?

So, we should be looking for a Spalding/Rigdon/Kidd connection.

Where's Uncle Dale when we need him?

Bernard

[PrettyNewMommy]

It makes sense only bc if someone were to write a book and needed some names for certain things in the book .. that they would go out of their way to find some infulence in names of places, people, things ... that most people had never heard of .. or the majority of people have never heard of.

I do not know enough about the island or what people in the 1800's knew about the island .. So see it works! j/k I don't really buy it. Little strange though ..

[ebeddoulos]

Well I've just given some evidence that Joseph read about Captain Kidd... Here's some more information...on the stories of Captain Kidd.

Captain Kidd, the famous pirate, was rumored to have buried his legendary treasure on the East Coast of the United States, and many â??treasure seekersâ? were digging for it during Joseph Smith's youth. Capt. Kidd had been hanged in 1701 for crimes committed near a town called Moroni on the island of Camora. (The spelling of Cumorah in the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, incidentally, was Camorah. )

It has been suggested that Joseph Smith may have subconsciously associated the word Moroni and the word Camora, both of which were connected with buried treasure, as were the buried gold plates of the Book of Mormon. Of course that can never be proven â??â?? but it is an interesting coincidence.

.

http://mormonism-proandcon.org/id10.html

Mary

Mary,

Interesting. What crimes might that be? Please provide a a credible source with a citation. If you had done any research at all, you would know that history says Kidd was hanged for murdering William Moore with a bucket while off the southwest coast of India near the small town of Tellicherry, known today as Thalassery. The other charge was for five counts of piracy, the most notable being the Queddah Merchant taken just off the southern-most tip of India. These events occurred on totally opposite sides of the Arabian Sea/Indian Ocean fron the Comoros Islands.(Graham Harris, â??Treasure and Intrigue: The Legacy of Captain Kiddâ?, Dundurn Press Ltd., [2002], pgs 130-134)

Judas H. Priest, your theory is bogus at best, lacking in any scholarly foundation and is bereft of evidence. You should go into sack cloth and ashes out of shame for attempting to foist this pile of male bovine waste product on anyone.

[why me]

But if Spalding/Rigdon wrote the book, then they pinched the names from the good Captain, no?

So, we should be looking for a Spalding/Rigdon/Kidd connection.

Where's Uncle Dale when we need him?

Bernard

Yes, I think so too. Abu's OP was a two parter. First the connection of places and capitals. And then the Spaulding Theory. It seems that the critics are assuming that JS because he was reading Captain Kidd, gleamed the titles from the good Captain. Which would imply that JS was working on the book of mormon and decided to use those names as important areas for the book of mormon. ( Highly unlikely when one considers the amount of errors he would make in his letter writing. It would take him many many moons to write that book with manucript in hand).

But if Sidney wrote the book, then it would be sidney who expunged those names from a source in the city library etc. However, for any fraudster to use names from a geogrphical source would be putting the enterprise at risk of discovery. Would it be worth it? Much better to make up names as you go along.

[PrettyNewMommy]

All of the pirate stories are very interesting. You can pull many things from the BOM and compare them to other things in the world. Like the Nephite/Lamanite Wars .. And the Williamite/ aka Jacobite Wars in Ireland sound similar. I'm sure the lists go on and on.

[why me]

The conspiracy aspect of it is the most damaging. But I don't think it has to be as wide spread as you say. It could have been limited to Oliver and Sidney. If you don't believe in the revealed gospel you probably think something was fishy with those two anyway, given the visions they claim to have participated in.

I don't think so. We would still need to consider the other witnesses to the book. By putting their names as a witness they immediately become co-conspirators. And Emma was an asute observer of JS. She would have caught on almost immediately and would have given up the fraud after suffering persecution and the persecution of her children. But she would have known something was amiss. And of course, JSsr. was a witness. This would imply Lucy was in on it too unless of course her husband kept it all from her. So we do have a rather wide group of conspirators and co-conspirators.

All of the pirate stories are very interesting. You can pull many things from the BOM and compare them to other things in the world. Like the Nephite/Lamanite Wars .. And the Williamite/ aka Jacobite Wars in Ireland sound similar. I'm sure the lists go on and on.

And a person can pull many things from the world and compare them too. Most happenings are rather common throughout the centuries.

[bjw]

When I first heard about this someone on an anti site claimed that Joseph Smith Sr. had a shipment he ordered get shipwrecked at Moroni, Comoros and that a letter stating this was in the church archives. Has anyone heard anything about this or been able to validate it?

[why me]

When I first heard about this someone on an anti site claimed that Joseph Smith Sr. had a shipment he ordered get shipwrecked at Moroni, Comoros and that a letter stating this was in the church archives. Has anyone heard anything about this or been able to validate it?

I haven't heard about it. However, if church archives aren't secret, it can be checked. But it does seem that many things are claimed to be in the archives but are they?

[PrettyNewMommy]

Why are people bothered by the reading of Captain Kidd so much and seem to dismiss the reading up on Stephen Burroughs. Stephen Burroughs is a scary character .. Seems like he was the top fraud and conman/liar in the times/life of JS. Why would he be reading up on that man of all people? .. That is stranger to me than Captain Kidd stories.

[Abulafia]

.

http://mormonism-proandcon.org/id10.html

Mary

Mary,

Interesting. What crimes might that be? Please provide a a credible source with a citation. If you had done any research at all, you would know that history says Kidd was hanged for murdering William Moore with a bucket while off the southwest coast of India near the small town of Tellicherry, known today as Thalassery. The other charge was for five counts of piracy, the most notable being the Queddah Merchant taken just off the southern-most tip of India. These events occurred on totally opposite sides of the Arabian Sea/Indian Ocean fron the Comoros Islands.(Graham Harris, â??Treasure and Intrigue: The Legacy of Captain Kiddâ?, Dundurn Press Ltd., [2002], pgs 130-134)

Judas H. Priest, your theory is bogus at best, lacking in any scholarly foundation and is bereft of evidence. You should go into sack cloth and ashes out of shame for attempting to foist this pile of male bovine waste product on anyone.

Hi Ebeddoulos..

Have you read the whole thread.... someone else kindly covered this... and hey...I already said that this is new to me...what do you expect? I have a family to look after, a job to do, a child on half-term and not much access to primary resources, accept those I can find on the web...however I shall duly dress in grey and waft a few hearth ashes over myself if that would please you.. (perhaps you could come clean my carpet afterwards.. )

As Bernard stated those names aren't entirely unknown alone, but what got my attention yesterday morning was that I was mentioning the Comoros Islands and it was my son who piped up the capital. It was the names 'together' that interested me. (aside from the fact that my son could remember an obscure capital like Moroni...that's pretty impressive...even if I do say so myself...him being my flesh and blood and all)

I'm still interested in the dime novels and as to whether any of them would have included the names Moroni and Comoros. I think that Nevo's link provided pretty good evidence that Joseph and his family were aware of the Captain Kidd legends, of hidden treasure and of the stories that arose around piracy and protective spirits over treasure. I hadn't realised how much evidence there was that the stories of Moroni visiting the young boy Joseph had changed and developed, but I guess that is another story.

Again, if I suppose that there was and that it was lost, I still need to explain how not one single person who read those stories ever came upon a Book of Mormon and told someone "that crazy boy got those names out of this Captain Kidd story!", given that these stories were supposedly popular in that region and community.

There's quite a few sources via Howe and Hurlburt that suggest how Joseph could have got ideas for names. (ie via Solomon Spalding's Manuscript Found). Is it entirely unreasonable to suggest that Pomeroy Tucker referenced Captain Kidd not to make Joseph Smith appear 'bad' for reading dime novels, but simply because those legends and places were perhaps well known, certainly amongst treasure seekers, in the time period.

Though Nevo's link would suggest that there were other motif's from the Captain Kidd Legend that Joseph was understood to have used. Perhaps Tucker was referring to those. (Ghostly protective spirit with throat cut?)

Mary

[shalamabobbi]

This thread reminds me of that theory that went around about Paul McCartney being dead, with the album played backwards etc...

What seems strange to me, assuming JS got the names from the island, is that he was clever enough not to use any of the other names from the island, but dumb enough to use two that are obviously linked, and make the greater mistake of having them also be closely linked in a prominent fashion in a fabrication.

Someone have the statistic of the number of new names occurring in the BOM? That chore alone would swamp most mortals.

[Abulafia]

Okay, found this

The Pirates Own Book: Authentic Narratives of the Most Celebrated Sea Robbers

by Marine Research Society

Originally published in an extremely rare 1837 volume, these delightfully melodramatic yet true stories of the diabolical desperadoes who plundered the ships of the high seas detail the lives, atrocities, and exploits of such infamous pirates as Black Beard, Jean Lafitte, Robert Kidd, Edward Low, and Anne Bonney. 77 line illustrations.

Indicating, if nothing else, that tales of Captain Kidd and his exploits were well known before 1837.

Mary

[Zakuska]

Id like to know where the source is that links JS reading up on either.

[Abulafia]

Oh well....at least I'm not the first.. (and I'm sure I won't be the last..)

Also found this...

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/071-07-09.pdf

[why me]

Okay, found this

Indicating, if nothing else, that tales of Captain Kidd and his exploits were well known before 1837.

Mary

How does an extremely rare edition published in 1837 equate to Captain Kidd's exploits being well-known before 1837?

[Abulafia]

Why me, are you really suggesting that in view of Joseph's money digging exploits (which I assume no one is denying) with fellow money diggers, that he would have known nothing about the Captain Kidd stories and legends, particularly as they reference hidden treasure.

I appreciate that apologists would regard this as the 'logical fallacy of appeal to probablity' (phew...that sounds high fallutin...good), but to my rather dense brain I don't think it is unreasonable to take a second look at this 'coincidence'..

As someone else on the thread suggested Nhm? is a much more tenuous link, but it is used by apologists to support their own hypotheses in terms of Book of Mormon origins...

Okay, just found this...

Judge Daniel Woodward, of the county court of Windsor, Vermont, near whose father's farm the Smiths lived, says that the elder Smith while living there was a hunter for Captain Kidd's treasure, and that "he also became implicated with one Jack Downing in counterfeiting money, but turned state's evidence and escaped the penalty."[6]

From: Historical Magazine, 1870

http://www.criticalenquiry.org/oakisland/O...er3.shtml#_edn6

(This link is very interesting)

Mary

[Abulafia]

Okay, it gets better. Joseph Smith's ancestors were from Topsfield, not far from Boston, Mass.

http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/chft/chft-01-05.htm

and this Newspaper Article (New York Times) from 1909 suggests Kidd sailed into Boston..

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/...9619C946897D6CF

More on Captain Kidd in Boston,

But first he needed to stash his gold as it may be the key to buying his way out of trouble. Although it is known that he did in fact bury some of the treasure on Gardinerâ??s Island (which was later taken by the British from Mr. Gardiner), much of the gold was never found. For over 300 years rumors abound as to where the gold may have been buried. Some say it was up the Connecticut River, others say in Block Island or Montauk, while others say he hid it in New Jersey along one of the coastal bays where he had family. No one will ever know as when Kidd arrived in Boston in July 6, 1699, he was arrested for piracy and treason while not one of his friends or investors took his side. After spending many months in solitary, he was transported to England in February of 1700 where he stood trial and was convicted of piracy and murder on May 9, 1701 and executed by hanging (twice) on May 23. The first time the rope around his neck broke but the second time ended his life. Many believe his trial was intended to bring down all the corrupt government officials and businessmen with whom he was associated but one thing we do know for sure is that then as is true now, your known by the company you keep and as the saying goes, keep your friends close, but your enemies even closer.

from: http://www.leisuretyme.net/Stories/capt_kidd.htm Will check this source.

Kidd sailed to Boston in a small ship called the Antonio determined to prove his innocence to the British Governor. He appears to have been perfectly confident that he could do so. However, he and nine of his crew were arrested and sent to London. On April 16th 1700, he was arraigned before the Lords of the Admiralty and committed to Newgate.

From: http://www.storyoflondon.com/modules.php?o...ticle&sid=4

Also this:

In one instance, according to William R. Hein, he gazed into his stone, and:

"He saw Captain Kidd sailing on the Susquehanna River during a freshet, and that he buried two pots of gold and silver. He claimed he saw writing cut on the rocks in an unknown language telling where Kidd buried it, and he translated it through his peep-stone."(10)

From: Naked Truths About Mormonism, January 1888, cited in Mormon Answer to Skepticism, p. 104. Cited in Tanner, Magic, 27.

Mary

[why me]

Why me, are you really suggesting that in view of Joseph's money digging exploits (which I assume no one is denying) with fellow money diggers, that he would have known nothing about the Captain Kidd stories and legends, particularly as they reference hidden treasure.

I appreciate that apologists would regard this as the 'logical fallacy of appeal to probablity' (phew...that sounds high fallutin...good), but to my rather dense brain I don't think it is unreasonable to take a second look at this 'coincidence'..

Mary

I am referring to the quotation that you posted which claimed that the 1837 edition was rare and yet, you claimed that the stories of Captain Kidd were widely known. I saw a disconnect between your quotation and statement.

Also, boys will be boys. If JS's mom would have stated in her memoirs that Joseph enjoyed Captain Kidd stories and if he had those books in his library, then I could say that a circumstancial case could be made. But to my knowledge, no Captain Kidd books were in his little library. Also, his mom did say that he was not prone to reading. Also, as you know because you have a young boy, boys are more than likely to talk about such things with their parents and certainly JS's parents would have seen a connection between the book of mormon and JS's boyhood. Likewise for the rest of the family.

Now it is true that we have third hand accounts or second hand accounts which may not be too reliable. But a first hand account or a close relative account seems to be lacking.

Also, since you brought up Spaulding with your original link, this would certainly put a kink in that theory unless of course, Sidney allowed JS to put in major sections for his (Sidney's) book.

[why me]

And then of course, we have several witnesses to the book of mormon who put their name to a statement about seeing the plates. Now if such Captain Kidd stories were so wide known, why would they do such a thing as stupid as putting their name to a document that stated a book that resembled captain kidd stories was from god?

[Abulafia]

Okay, I have to go out in a moment, but I have been checking this:

http://www.farmsresearch.com/publications/...um=1&id=567

In addition, none of the three Kidd tales comes from a prime witness. Another interesting wrinkle is that two of three Kidd versions (Chase and Lapham) claim Joseph Smith Sr. as their source, not Joseph Jr. Is the Captain Kidd motif actually a reflection of Joseph Sr.'s interpretation of what happened at the Hill Cumorah?

From:

'I Should Have an Eye Single to the Glory of God': Joseph Smith's Account of the Angel and the Plates

Larry E. Morris

FARMS Review: Volume - 17, Issue - 1

A review of "From Captain Kidd's Treasure Ghost to the Angel Moroni: Changing Dramatis Personae in Early Mormonism" by Ronald V. Huggins

Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 2005

Why me, it does seem that at least 3 contemporary resources indicate that Joseph Smith Sr, was well aware of the legends of Captain Kidd.

Can you accept that?

Mary

[USU78]

Okay, I have to go out in a moment, but I have been checking this:

http://www.farmsresearch.com/publications/...um=1&id=567

From:

Why me, it does seem that at least 3 contemporary resources indicate that Joseph Smith Sr, was well aware of the legends of Captain Kidd.

Can you accept that?

It's quite a logical leap, Mary, from pirate tales entering into the vernacular and specifics about a specific pirate's doings in a particular spot in the Indian Ocean leading to specific knowledge in a specific farm kid (or Ohio zealot, if you prefer), causing said farm kid (or Ohio zealot, if you prefer) to use the names of a relatively obscure island group and an even more obscure minor town in said island group in a major work of XIXth Century pseudepigrapha.

Captain Kidd's activities in the Americas was the basis for the stories referred to in the sources you site, not in the Indian Ocean. Captain Kidd's alleged buried treasure up the Hudson River was the basis for a lot of the treasurehunting in the Finger Lakes region, not alleged buried treasure Jenseits von Madagascar.

USU "Who thinks Mary's stuck in a rut: let's help her out" 78

[No Touch]

7 Pages of this?!?!

Mary, you do realize you are grasping at straws here? Again, if knowledge about Moroni & the Comoros Islands was readily enough available to the Smith family through the Captain Kidd stories then it would have been just as available to the earliest detractors of the early Church. I mean EVEN IF there was an actual connection between the historical William Kidd and Moroni (rather than simply the Comoros Islands as a whole) you would still have the problem of how in the world it was only the Smiths who found these strange names in these popular stories while no one else noticed.