John Williams Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 IMO, not worth much. Add to it Lucy's statements about JS not being prone to reading, etc. and the late date of the second reference, Philastus, who just as likely heard about the Cpt. Kidd thing from Tucker or another critical source.To sum up, we can all agree that this is a possible source for the two proper names, right?
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 John W:Possible, but so highly unlikely that it approaches zero.
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 To sum up, we can all agree that this is a possible source for the two proper names, right?Nail in the coffin!
Nevo Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 But no mention of what "stories" and what information might have been in them.No. Tucker never mentioned Moroni or Cumorah/Comoros in connection with Captain Kidd.For the Kidd-Comoros connection see Ronald V. Huggins, "From Captain Kidd's Treasure Ghost to the Angel Moroni: Changing Dramatis Personae in Early Mormonism," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 36, no. 4 [2003]: 17-41).
John Williams Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 John W:Possible, but so highly unlikely that it approaches zero.I suspect that one's opinion of the likelihood depends on whether one believes Joseph was a prophet.Nail in the coffin!What on earth are you talking about?
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Don't forget to check http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=600http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=567
selek Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Don't forget to check http://en.fairmormon.org/From_Captain_Kidd...Early_Mormonismhttp://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=600http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=567Hey LOAP, your first link is broken- it heads to a stub rather than to an article.
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 I suspect that one's opinion of the likelihood depends on whether one believes Joseph was a prophet.Or it could just be the lack of evidence.
John Williams Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Or it could just be the lack of evidence.But you agree that it's possible, right? That's all I was saying.
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Fixed, selek. Looks like that page is under construction.
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 But you agree that it's possible, right? That's all I was saying.John there are many things which are "possible". It's "possible" I could re-enroll at ASU and walk-on for the football team as a linebacker, given that I still have 4 years of eligibility. But, given that I am 37, 5'7" and 150, the probability is so remote as to make the discussion nothing more than a fun source of jokes.
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 Why check the names?All of the stories in this anthology were published in the 1860's: thirty years too late to have been an impact on the young Joseph Smith.Yes. I noticed that, but the book suggested that those books may have seen 'earlier publication'. True it doesn't say how early.So, WHY does Pomeroy Tucker reference Captain Kidd and the Dime novels if he saw no connection? Is the suggestion that it was just down to Captain Kidd's having supposedly buried treasure and Tucker knowing that Joseph was a treasure seeker?
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Yes. I noticed that, but the book suggested that those books may have seen 'earlier publication'. True it doesn't say how early.So, WHY does Pomeroy Tucker reference Captain Kidd and the Dime novels if he saw no connection? Is the suggestion that it was just down to Captain Kidd's having supposedly buried treasure and Tucker knowing that Joseph was a treasure seeker?People have attempted to associate JS with all manner of poor behavior (just read the pages leading up that quote). That this alleged "eyewitness" would attempt to paint JS as being fascinated with adventure, treasure, and "criminality" in his youth just feeds the myth that JS was capable of one of the biggest frauds the world has ever known.
Nevo Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Personally, I chalk up the Moroni/Comoros thing to coincidence. As D. Michael Quinn has pointed out, "exact or close parallels exist for Book of Mormon names" in a broad range of sources, ancient and modern (see, for example, his discussion of the name "Moroni" on pp. 155-56 of Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2d ed.).
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 Nevo...Many thanks for the link. Am reading it now...Mary
Eguzkitanedan Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Yes. I noticed that, but the book suggested that those books may have seen 'earlier publication'. True it doesn't say how early.So, WHY does Pomeroy Tucker reference Captain Kidd and the Dime novels if he saw no connection? Is the suggestion that it was just down to Captain Kidd's having supposedly buried treasure and Tucker knowing that Joseph was a treasure seeker?Back in the days, people considered reading dime novels and even fiction as a waste of time, and there's even a funny letter by Jefferson in which he lambasts fiction authors. So, painting a young "prophet" as spending his childhood reading what were the graphic novels of the day makes this supposedly spiritual man seem a little less than he is painted to be.
thesometimesaint Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 John W:I said nothing of JS prophetic role. It is highly unlikely that a young JS would have availed himself of the books alleged to have been in the massive Palmyra Reading Lending Library. Is it possible? Sure I already said it was possible. But it is highly unlikely.
No Touch Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Isn't that exactly what Pomeroy Tucker did?Sorry if I misunderstand?MaryNo. Pomeroy Tucker said that Joseph Smith read Captain Kidd stories. He said nothing at all about any connection between those stories and the names Cumorah and Moroni, because there was no connection.
No Touch Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 No. Tucker never mentioned Moroni or Cumorah/Comoros in connection with Captain Kidd.For the Kidd-Comoros connection see Ronald V. Huggins, "From Captain Kidd's Treasure Ghost to the Angel Moroni: Changing Dramatis Personae in Early Mormonism," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 36, no. 4 [2003]: 17-41).If it took anti-Mormons 150+ years to come up with this one, it should tell you something about how good the chances of it being true are.
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 No Touch,Did you read Nevo's link.It was quite interesting..Mary
LifeOnaPlate Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 No Touch,Did you read Nevo's link.It was quite interesting..MaryI'm guessing you also read the links provided by moi?
Abulafia Posted February 18, 2009 Author Posted February 18, 2009 I'm guessing you also read the links provided by moi?Will do that next. I had no idea what I was going to be reading with Nevo's links... but there does seem to be a lot of evidence there that Joseph and his family, at least, were familiar with the legend of Captain Kidd... This is all new to me...Mary
ttribe Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Will do that next. I had no idea what I was going to be reading with Nevo's links... but there does seem to be a lot of evidence there that Joseph and his family, at least, were familiar with the legend of Captain Kidd... This is all new to me...MaryAgain I ask - you consider that information to be "evidence"? I realize you live in the U.K., but I can only hope you never serve on a jury or anything like unto it.
cdowis Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 So, the short answer is that it's mere coincidence.The long answer is that it is not a coincidence at all, but the link between Moroni and Cumoros is a long and tangled one. Similar to those used by the evolutionists to explain certain characteristics of organisms.
Zakuska Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 When this subject popped up the last time I thought we resolved it.IIRC, Moroni didn't become a city until after JS wrote the BOM.
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