The Capital of the Comoros Islands is?

[Daniel Peterson]

1.

Why do "apologists" tend to regard the Moroni/Camoros pairing as coincidental, rather than as a significant "hit" for the critics?

I think this question raises a really interesting methodological issue, and -- I don't have time right now -- maybe I'll write about it sometime. There are a number of factual matters that can be adduced by "apologists" to weaken critics' claims on this topic, but, to me, the most fundamental disqualifier is connected with the concept of theories or "worldviews" that Thomas Kuhn famously discussed in his The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Whereas, for example, the NHM/Nahom "hit" functions very well within an overall theory of Book of Mormon origins (namely, the theory accepted by mainstream believers), and might in a sense even have been predicted or expected according to such a theory, the Moroni/Camoros link seems pretty random. Such seeming parallels will likely occur between any two texts of sufficient length, but they're probably meaningless. Individual factoids have little or no significance in and of themselves; they only acquire meaning within a more comprehensive view or explanation.

2.

I now have in hand the not-yet-quite-complete draft of a (heavily statistical) response to the latest (heavily statistical) attempt to resuscitate the Spalding/Rigdon theory of Book of Mormon authorship.

This is going to be fun.

[thesometimesaint]

Daniel Peterson:

Let us know when you are ready.

[Eguzkitanedan]

Except that everything in the recap has been said by others on this thread.

If you are referring to what I said--- I gave a source on the Comoros that Mary/Abulafia didn't even use, and I called that guy an idiot. Although Mary's willingness to keep saying "hmm i guess this is right" when her source was shown to be blatantly wrong on the place of Kidd's death and she didn't acknowledge it was a bad source doesn't raise my estimation of her.

[Abulafia]

If you are referring to what I said--- I gave a source on the Comoros that Mary/Abulafia didn't even use, and I called that guy an idiot. Although Mary's willingness to keep saying "hmm i guess this is right" when her source was shown to be blatantly wrong on the place of Kidd's death and she didn't acknowledge it was a bad source doesn't raise my estimation of her.

It was a bad source....actually there is a lot of misinformation out there on the net...and I apologise for using it without checking its validity. (as I say, it is half-term over here, and I had to mix in all this with looking after my son, his friend and taking them to see Bolt...)

Hopefully I did better in my most recent post on Kidd.. (post 166)

Mary

[Eguzkitanedan]

It was a bad source....actually there is a lot of misinformation out there on the net...and I apologise for using it without checking its validity. (as I say, it is half-term over here, and I had to mix in all this with looking after my son, his friend and taking them to see Bolt...)

Hopefully I did better in my most recent post on Kidd.. (post 166)

Mary

Ok, no prob. (Esitmation inching up)

[thesometimesaint]

You're all right in my book, Mary

Now let us all have big Group Hug.

[Zakuska]

Mary summarizes:

The apologists suggest that it was unlikely that Joseph would have had access to maps of the time, but fail to address the Captain Kidd links with Comoros and Moroni, the purported knowledge of Joseph Smith Sr and his family of Captain Kidd - his various travels and exploits, and their proximity (in terms of where the Smith family lived) to one of the landing ports in Boston where Kidd sailed in order to seek protection from the governor, but was infact imprisoned before being sent home to England to be ignominiously hanged as a pirate rather than privateer. (see links already given also Richard Zacks, The Pirate Hunter, The True Story of Captain Kidd 2003)

I have a few questions mary... how have apologists failed...?

1) According to a link I posted, the oldest structure in "old town" Muruni is only 500 years old. I will grant that that does over lap Joseph Smith by 300+ years.

2) I haven't seen the critics link Captian Kidd to Muruni other than it coincidentaly happens to be on the Grand Comore Island. To which he may or may not have even visited. Which island did his men die on?

In fact where does the idea that Captian Kidd even visited Comoros come from?

At some point, Kidd decided to sail to Madagascar, the pirate haven for those marauders who preyed on rich ships traversing the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. In mid-December, three English warships happened upon the Adventure Galley. Commodore Thomas Warren commanded these vessels, which had lost their sailing master, possessed no fresh food, and whose crews suffered from scurvy. He ordered Kidd to help them reach Cape Town, but Kidd was reluctant to do so. His men were relatively healthy, and he feared Warren would press more of his men into the Royal Navy. At present all the ships were becalmed, but Kidd waited until early morning before he and his men bid the naval ships a soft farewell, rowing silently away under cover of darkness. When Warren discovered the Adventure Galley’s disappearance, he decided Captain Kidd was up to no good.

The Adventure Galley rounded the Cape of Good Hope in February 1697, one month before William Kidd was to return to England, and they hadn’t seen even one pirate or French ship. In need of repairs and leaking, their vessel required careening, a task that took five weeks. During this time, Kidd lost one-fifth of his men to disease, possibly cholera. Next they sailed for the Red Sea in hopes of encountering a pilgrim fleet returning from Mecca. They sighted a convoy of ships on 11 August, but armed escorts foiled their attack. After nine months at sea with no captured prizes, mutinous rumblings were heard aboard the Adventure Galley. In addition, they were short of water, the ship’s hull leaked, and the crew disliked Kidd’s high-handedness. A local agent in Karwar, India later described Kidd as a “very lusty man, fighting with his men on any occasion, often calling for his pistols and threatening any one that durst speak anything contrary to his mind and knock out their brains, causing them to dread him….” (Cordingly, p.180)

http://www.cindyvallar.com/williamkidd.html

[Daniel Peterson]

As an aside, very early descriptions of Moroni in LDS lore refer to him as a treasure protector, a motif not disimilar to that used in various piracy stories (including those of Captain Kidd) that were doing the rounds at the time, and also appeared to be well known on the eastern seaboard.

Whoa. Not so fast, please.

On Joseph Smith, Moroni, Captain Kidd, and "Treasure Guardians," please see

Larry E. Morris, "'I Should Have an Eye Single to the Glory of God': Joseph Smith's Account of the Angel and the Plates," FARMS Review 17/1 (2005)

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=567

and

Mark Ashurst-McGee, "Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian," FARMS Review 18/1 (2006):

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=600

[Bill Hamblin]

Whoa. Not so fast, please.

On Joseph Smith, Moroni, Captain Kidd, and "Treasure Guardians," please see

Larry E. Morris, "'I Should Have an Eye Single to the Glory of God': Joseph Smith's Account of the Angel and the Plates," FARMS Review 17/1 (2005)

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=567

and

Mark Ashurst-McGee, "Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian," FARMS Review 18/1 (2006):

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=1&id=600

Dan's right, as always ... unless he's disagreeing with me.

Hi Mary!

[Zakuska]

So just how strong is Mary's evidence...

I can't access Mary's source online... but I can read the page following:

112 ZANZIBAR

thirteen men. With these and the Moors he pumped the Adventure Galley, but as she sank they all got on board the Adventure Prize. For five months he had to wait, and then, taking some passengers, he sailed for Auilla, in the West Indies, where he arrived in April, 1699, and learnt that they were regarded as pirates.

Now it is obvious from the above that Captian Kidd passed Zanzibar and Pemba on his way north from Mohilla to Bab Islet, and also on his way south from the coast of India to Ste. Marie.

Either of these times he might have stopped at Mesale, but on the way up he had no prize, so presumably if he did bury anything he did it on the way down. Presumably also it would be coin, as most other things would not be likely to perish. Presumably also he would not be likely to mention he had called there if he wanted to bury treasure. Neither he nor his crew would be likely to say so if they hoped to have any profit out of it.

Our evidence that he did call there is, however slight, except that there is generally truth behind most traditions.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oYhrCkGax...amp;output=html

Its ironic that Mary would reference a guy trying to seek Captian Kids treasure supposedly buried in Mesale as a source.

According to this book...

The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd

Kid did visit 2 of the Islands... the middle two... He initially sailed from Madagascar to Johanna... but because of Captian Warren's gossip that he was a Pirate, he ended up in Mohelia where he carreened his Boat and his men died.

Still no solid evidence of the city Muruni on a different Island in conjunction with Captian Kid and Comoros being known back then. Nor did Kidd set foot on the Grande Comore Island where Moroni is now the Capital.

[Abulafia]

Hi Bill!

Thanks for the links Dan, will read them later on today.

Zakuska. There is a lot of good source evidence on Captain Kidd. I have spent the better half of today trawling the National Archives, and have found some pretty good sites that give primary sources for him.

I've found some more interesting contemporary sources that link Joseph's treasure digging, to actually digging for Kidd's treasure. If he's digging for Kidd's treasure then I think, though nothing can be proved, it increases the likelihood that he knew of legends and rumours that surrounded Kidd and his travels, both in America and through the West and East Indies.

I am in email correspondence with a British Kidd expert right now. I'll get back to you if anything interesting comes up relating to Comoros.

In a way it doesn't matter if Kidd really visited Grand Comoros or not, what matters is that people might have thought that he did. Apparantly one of the islands in the Comoros is now under water....and I have found one source, (will link to it later) that suggests that it was not unusual for the seamen to travel to the different islands during their stop-overs. If the ships were in bad condition, or needed repairing, they might stay for a considerable amount of time (6 weeks or more).

Mary

[Zakuska]

Hi Bill!

Thanks for the links Dan, will read them later on today.

Zakuska. There is a lot of good source evidence on Captain Kidd. I have spent the better half of today trawling the National Archives, and have found some pretty good sites that give primary sources for him.

I've found some more interesting contemporary sources that link Joseph's treasure digging, to actually digging for Kidd's treasure. If he's digging for Kidd's treasure then I think, though nothing can be proved, it increases the likelihood that he knew of legends and rumours that surrounded Kidd and his travels, both in America and through the West and East Indies.

I am in email correspondence with a British Kidd expert right now. I'll get back to you if anything interesting comes up relating to Comoros.

In a way it doesn't matter if Kidd really visited Grand Comoros or not, what matters is that people might have thought that he did. Apparantly one of the islands in the Comoros is now under water....and I have found one source, (will link to it later) that suggests that it was not unusual for the seamen to travel to the different islands during their stop-overs. If the ships were in bad condition, or needed repairing, they might stay for a considerable amount of time (6 weeks or more).

Mary

I like all these "might have" conspiracy theories Mary and I will be waiting for your report with bated breath.

This is one source I found intresting... Kidd's Island

You know Mary just a sugestion what we could check... How about getting some english seamen charts from the time and see if its on the map.

http://www.swaen.com/charts.html

This chart from 1742 is intresting.

http://www.swaen.com/zoomifyURLDrivenWebPa...yFadeInSpeed=10

There seems to be tick marks around the Islands which correspond to sea ports. Unfortunatley no tick marks appear around the Grand comore Island...? I wonder why?

So tell us Mary if seamen weren't maping a sea port on the Grande Comore island less than 50 years later, what are the chances there even was a sea port there when Kidd carreened his boat on Mohelia in 1696?

[ebeddoulos]

In a way it doesn't matter if Kidd really visited Grand Comoros or not, what matters is that people might have thought that he did.

Mary

You made me belly laugh and trust me when I say that I have the belly to do it right.

You finally admitted it. It does not matter that you have failed to provide a single source which states that Captain Kidd visited Grande Comore. Nor does it matter to you that you have not provided a shred of evidence that prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon, that the tiny villiage of Muruni was ever known off island by anyone, let alone Captain Kidd. It only matters to you if "people might have thought that he did."

Please allow me to point you in the direction of learning a new word which you have made obvious that you do not know. The word is "misrepresent". Google will provide you with a myriad of definitions.

[why me]

It was a bad source....actually there is a lot of misinformation out there on the net...and I apologise for using it without checking its validity. (as I say, it is half-term over here, and I had to mix in all this with looking after my son, his friend and taking them to see Bolt...)Hopefully I did better in my most recent post on Kidd.. (post 166)Mary

Granted, your source was weak but I am not sure why you posted it. Was it to stir the pot? But at least now the apologists are answering you. I would be careful with the hypotheticals. Nothing stirs an apologist pot more than an hypothetical. But like I already said, critics are wonderful at hypotheticals, especially those that have been to the Dale school of hypotheticals. I like Uncle Dale, but I do like calling him on his hypotheticals.

You made me belly laugh and trust me when I say that I have the belly to do it right. You finally admitted it. It does not matter that you have failed to provide a single source which states that Captain Kidd visited Grande Comore. Nor does it matter to you that you have not provided a shred of evidence that prior to the publication of the Book of Mormon, that the tiny villiage of Muruni was ever known off island by anyone, let alone Captain Kidd. It only matters to you if "people might have thought that he did."Please allow me to point you in the direction of learning a new word which you have made obvious that you do not know. The word is "misrepresent". Google will provide you with a myriad of definitions.

A better word would be hypothetical, something Mary was engaged in here. She is learning from a master. But I like Mary. Her heart is in the right place. She is just exploring information and seeing what happens as she explores from her home base.

[why me]

Hi Bill!

I've found some more interesting contemporary sources that link Joseph's treasure digging, to actually digging for Kidd's treasure. If he's digging for Kidd's treasure then I think, though nothing can be proved, it increases the likelihood that he knew of legends and rumours that surrounded Kidd and his travels, both in America and through the West and East Indies.

Mary

Yes, you are right, nothing can be proved, sort of like the whole Rigdon Spaulding theory. But could there be a likelihood the JS knew of legends and rumours if he is digging for Kidds treasure? I guess it is a good coulda for sure.

[why me]

You're all right in my book, Mary

Now let us all have big Group Hug.

This is the second group hug. Okay, I will go along again with a group hug...

[Pilgrim]

Got a big kick out of 10 pages of "something out of nothing" silliness. Next, shall we consider the possible relevance of the fact that there was a Renaissance painter whose name is (are you ready for this?) TADA! Giovanni Battista MORONI! Now where can we go with that bit of information?

[Zakuska]

Thats IT! I but you the smith Family Bible included one of his paintings!

[USU78]

Hi Bill!

Thanks for the links Dan, will read them later on today.

Zakuska. There is a lot of good source evidence on Captain Kidd. I have spent the better half of today trawling the National Archives, and have found some pretty good sites that give primary sources for him.

I've found some more interesting contemporary sources that link Joseph's treasure digging, to actually digging for Kidd's treasure. If he's digging for Kidd's treasure then I think, though nothing can be proved, it increases the likelihood that he knew of legends and rumours that surrounded Kidd and his travels, both in America and through the West and East Indies.

I am in email correspondence with a British Kidd expert right now. I'll get back to you if anything interesting comes up relating to Comoros.

In a way it doesn't matter if Kidd really visited Grand Comoros or not, what matters is that people might have thought that he did. Apparantly one of the islands in the Comoros is now under water....and I have found one source, (will link to it later) that suggests that it was not unusual for the seamen to travel to the different islands during their stop-overs. If the ships were in bad condition, or needed repairing, they might stay for a considerable amount of time (6 weeks or more).

Mary, it's one thing to say that people in Britain, especially London or Durham or Liverpool or Glasgow may have heard of the Comoros in 1820-30, but it's quite another to say people in Ohio or the Finger Lakes region of New Yawk knew it.

It is, moreover, quite a different thing to say the moneydiggers in the Finger Lakes region were trying to dig up Captain Kidd's treasure (assuming he ever got his ship up the Hudson or anywhere near the Hudson) in 1820-30, and quite another to say they knew of anyplace other than Jamaica or Barbados that might be a likely spot for Kidd's exploits.

It's comfortable and easy to make assumptions about people from far away and long ago. Kidd and Blackbeard were the most famous hereabouts, so it's far more likely that people spoke of Kidd's treasure in the Finger Lakes because his was the only pirate name they knew.

[Abulafia]

Actually, learning about pirates is kind of fun... I don't know whether to feel sorry for Captain Kidd or not...

Here are the references for Joseph searching for Captain Kidd's treasures. (which in context, wasn't as far fetched as it seems,...Kidd did leave treasure at Gardener's Island (which was later found), and contemporary sources do suggest that there was a lot of pirate fever at the time.

From Arthur B Deming's Naked Truths about Mormonism 1888 (Gotta love the title, but Deming doesn't seem such an anti-mormon) (from Dale B's extensive site)

W. R. Hines Statement - born in Colesville in 1803, and had some contact because both Joseph and his father were digging salt for two summers near his home.

(referring to Joseph)

'He had a very clear stone about the size and shape of a ducks egg, and claimed that he could see lost or hidden things through it. He said he saw Captain Kidd sailing on the Susquehanna River during a freshet, and that he buried two pots of gold and silver. He claimed he saw writing cut on the rocks in an unknown language telling where Kidd buried it, and he translated it through the peep-stone'.

Also

Mr Bell's statement - born in 1803 Broom Cty New York

His brother told him

'he knew Jo Smith when he was digging near the Susquehanna River for Captain Kidd's Money'

Looking on this site (which seems to be one of the better) http://whydah.com/

and this page in particular which deals with a small island off the coast of Madagascar called Isle Ste Marie, which was a pirate stop off -

http://whydah.com/pages/our_work_pages/kidd.html

and where the Adventure Galley (one of Kidd's ships) appears to have been discovered recently.

There are still people out there today looking for Kidd's treasures all over the world. Probably based on his leaving his booty around the eastern sea board of the USA, (or at least rumoured to have done) and because of this:-

In a bid to save his life after being sentenced to death, Kidd wrote that

"In my late proceedings in the Indies, I have lodged goods and treasure to the value of

[Abulafia]

Mary, it's one thing to say that people in Britain, especially London or Durham or Liverpool or Glasgow may have heard of the Comoros in 1820-30, but it's quite another to say people in Ohio or the Finger Lakes region of New Yawk knew it.

It is, moreover, quite a different thing to say the moneydiggers in the Finger Lakes region were trying to dig up Captain Kidd's treasure (assuming he ever got his ship up the Hudson or anywhere near the Hudson) in 1820-30, and quite another to say they knew of anyplace other than Jamaica or Barbados that might be a likely spot for Kidd's exploits.

It's comfortable and easy to make assumptions about people from far away and long ago. Kidd and Blackbeard were the most famous hereabouts, so it's far more likely that people spoke of Kidd's treasure in the Finger Lakes because his was the only pirate name they knew.

I honestly disagree. From what I have read it seems that people around New York and the Boston area would have known quite a lot about Kidd in particular. Samuel Smith (Joseph's direct ancestor born in 1714 to Samuel Smith b 1666) was active in public affairs only a few decades after Kidd was sent back to England to be hanged (early 1700's). They knew surely what was going on in Boston 30 miles away. A lot of these people were only a couple of generations out of England/Scotland, at a time when the area was still run by the crown (though not for much longer). I'm pretty sure they kept an interest in such matters.

You know Mary just a sugestion what we could check... How about getting some english seamen charts from the time and see if its on the map.

I agree. But I think it is well established that the Comoros was a haven for pirates, as was the east coast of Madagascar. I did visit Borders today to check out any Maritime Maps they might have, but alas no books in stock.

[USU78]

From what I have read it seems that people around New York and the Boston area would have known quite a lot about Kidd in particular. Samuel Smith (Joseph's direct ancestor born in 1714 to Samuel Smith b 1666) was active in public affairs only a few decades after Kidd was sent back to England to be hanged (early 1700's). They knew surely what was going on in Boston 30 miles away. A lot of these people were only a couple of generations out of England/Scotland, at a time when the area was still run by the crown (though not for much longer). I'm pretty sure they kept an interest in such matters.

There's a huge difference between the folks on the Eastern Seaboard in the mid XVIIIth Century and the grandsons and great-grandsons of those men out on the frontier. What the former knew as a result of being where news travelled by town crier, broadsides, back fence gossip, and such, folks on the frontier 2-3 generations later would only have had the slightest knowledge of.

The latter types would surely have heard of Kidd and pirates in general, but not much reliable about specifics, even after the coming of the Erie Canal, with Boatmen and Travellers being the source of news.

I'd like to see somebody trace, if they possibly could, news of Kidd's exploits in the SW Indian Ocean to Sharon, VT, and Palmyra, NY, and the region around Kirtland, OH, in the first 1/4 of the XIXth Century via printed page or word-of-mouth.

USU "Wishing won't make it so" 78

[Zakuska]

I honestly disagree. From what I have read it seems that people around New York and the Boston area would have known quite a lot about Kidd in particular. Samuel Smith (Joseph's direct ancestor born in 1714 to Samuel Smith b 1666) was active in public affairs only a few decades after Kidd was sent back to England to be hanged (early 1700's). They knew surely what was going on in Boston 30 miles away. A lot of these people were only a couple of generations out of England/Scotland, at a time when the area was still run by the crown (though not for much longer). I'm pretty sure they kept an interest in such matters.

I agree. But I think it is well established that the Comoros was a haven for pirates, as was the east coast of Madagascar. I did visit Borders today to check out any Maritime Maps they might have, but alas no books in stock.

I already pointed you to one Maritime Map from 1742 that can be veiwed online that shows sea ports on all the Comros islands except one... the Grand Comora island. It didn't have any ports in 1742 according to the map so what makes you think it would have had one in 1696 - 50 years earlier?

Here is that map again:

http://www.swaen.com/zoomifyURLDrivenWebPa...yFadeInSpeed=10

You can zoom in on the Comorre islands and see for yourself. It shows no ports on the Grande Comorre Island as of 1742.

This sight has all kinds of Maritime Maps that can be viewed/purchased online:

http://www.swaen.com/

Here is another one:

http://www.swaen.com/zoomifyURLDrivenWebPa...yFadeInSpeed=10

Notice the Islands have dots next to them marking sea ports. I see no sea ports on the grand Comore Island.

And another:

http://www.swaen.com/zoomifyURLDrivenWebPa...yFadeInSpeed=10

[Abulafia]

I already pointed you to one Maritime Map from 1742 that can be veiwed online that shows sea ports on all the Comros islands except one... the Grand Comora island. It didn't have any ports in 1742 according to the map so what makes you think it would have had one in 1696 - 50 years earlier?

Here is that map again:

http://www.swaen.com/zoomifyURLDrivenWebPa...yFadeInSpeed=10

You can zoom in on the Comorre islands and see for yourself. It shows no ports on the Grande Comorre Island as of 1742.

This sight has all kinds of Maritime Maps that can be viewed/purchased online:

http://www.swaen.com/

Here is another one:

http://www.swaen.com/zoomifyURLDrivenWebPa...yFadeInSpeed=10

Notice the Islands have dots next to them marking sea ports. I see no sea ports on the grand Comore Island.

And another:

http://www.swaen.com/zoomifyURLDrivenWebPa...yFadeInSpeed=10

Do the maps you have listed show Isle Ste Marie off the Madagascar coast where Kidd appears to have scuttled one of his ships? If you can't, does that mean that he infact didn't actually scuttle his ship there?

I would think that privateers and pirates knew the islands quite well. All of them. Iconi was the original capital of Grand Comoro, under the rule of the Arabs, however, all you need to do is check out google earth. Check Moroni, check Iconi, and see which one had the natural port. If I were a sailor, I would think Moroni would have been a safer bet to dock my boat rather than Iconi. And there are contemporary sources, that pirates from a number of areas did just that. Iconi is a stones through (well almost) from Moroni anyway.

Here's a good link to that 1808 map, listing Camora.

http://www.kenyalogy.com/eng/mapake/af1808.html

Still doesn't prove anything of course.

Mary

[Abulafia]

There's a huge difference between the folks on the Eastern Seaboard in the mid XVIIIth Century and the grandsons and great-grandsons of those men out on the frontier. What the former knew as a result of being where news travelled by town crier, broadsides, back fence gossip, and such, folks on the frontier 2-3 generations later would only have had the slightest knowledge of.

The latter types would surely have heard of Kidd and pirates in general, but not much reliable about specifics, even after the coming of the Erie Canal, with Boatmen and Travellers being the source of news.

I'd like to see somebody trace, if they possibly could, news of Kidd's exploits in the SW Indian Ocean to Sharon, VT, and Palmyra, NY, and the region around Kirtland, OH, in the first 1/4 of the XIXth Century via printed page or word-of-mouth.

USU "Wishing won't make it so" 78

Did Kidd bury gold along the Susquehanna River. Probably not.. That's not important. Joseph seemed to have thought that he did, based on the legends that were circulating at the time.